carguy101

Just like the "same management style" at GM long ago had GM making huge profits and commanding the market. Now look where this management style has gotten them?

Again, I see zero evidence of any link between Hyundai's management style and the current sales lull. GM's problem was due to the crappy products it was putting out relative to the competition. You asked for some reasons behind the sales lull, and I provided some possible reasons, with explanations.

It's easy to experience huge growth when your sales are very low to begin with.

No, it ain't "easy". Just ask Mazda, VW, Suzuki, Subaru, Mitsubishi, and a myriad of other smaller car companies that failed completely or failed to grow.

"For now, sales seem to be struggling but if sales continue to drop Hyundai could actually see sales down for 2008. That would mean more than a sales "lull", it would mean a reversal of the growth they've seen over the past few years. A sales lull would mean your sales have slowed but at least are still growing. Right now it looks like it could be more than a lull for Hyundai."

Sales for every company is down so far this year. It's been 2 months. Let's see how it pans out. I think the refreshed 2009 Sonata will do stimulate sales a bit. The interior looks great, and the 4 cylinder version seems very much improved. The Genesis should give a little spark, but not much.

Hyundai's main problem from a product standpoint right now is the lack of a competitive 4 cylinder small SUV. The Santa Fe is V6 only, and that'll turn off mpg conscious shoppers. The CRV, RAV4 and Rogue are HUGE sellers for the Japanese Big 3 right now. And the aging Tucson just isn't going to cut it.

There is nothing wrong with the idea of moving the Hyundai brand up-market, but it must be done in a progressive, "organic" way so that Hyundai's brand perception and reputation can change to fit the upmarket ambitions of the company. There is nothing wrong with the idea, but the way Korean management wants to implement it is IMHO not the right way to do it.

Now is the right time to do it. Right now, there is a disjuncture between public perception and reality at Hyundai. Upscale vehicles like the Veracruz and Genesis should help change that perception.

TJW98LS

iTrader: (1)

Mazda, VW, and Subaru havent failed to grow man... You See Mazdas on the road almost as much as you see a toyota. With the new Mazda 3, its getting alot of attention...

VW own many more companies including Porsche and Audi...I can't consider that car company to be small.

And Subaru is about the same as Mazda. There are Subarus everywhere, mainly driven by the younger scene, because they look cool, are quick and peppy. YOu cant tell me that Subaru has not grown in ten years when in 1998 subaru only had an american Impreza, Legacy, and Outback...which were selling like prunes at the supermarket.

TRDFantasy

I simply pointed out GM's management style because it was once successful but now it's a totally flawed management style. GM refused to adapt and change to the market and to adapt to changes in the industry. If Hyundai management refuses to change they might end up with some similar troubles.

Compared to an automaker with BIG volumes, relatively speaking yes it IS easy to experience growth if you have low volumes. Percentage-wise, it's much harder to experience growth with huge volumes compared to small volumes.

Sorry, I don't buy that "every company's" sales are down. Honda sales are up so far this year, and Toyota sales are down just a little bit, mainly due to the Corolla model changeover. Mazda sales are up (likely at the expensive of Hyundai). Hyundai sales are down *more* than any other automaker percentage-wise. How do you explain that?

Also, the most important question of all; why isn't Hyundai conquesting more Honda and Toyota sales?

carguy101

I'm talking about sales growth in the past ten years. Hyundai sales have doubled. I think Mazda sales are about where they were 10 years ago, maybe even less.

carguy101

Alright, as far as I can tell, Honda sales are by 1%. MB and Mazda are up. Everyone else is down.

Anyways, it's just been 2 months of sales. WAY to premature to extrapolate anything from that. If Hyundai has consistently similar decreases for the rest of the year, that'll be something.

TRDFantasy

So I assume you have no explanation as to why Hyundai isn't conquesting Toyota and Honda sales?

You're right it's only been 2 months, but it looks like a worrying trend for Hyundai. We saw the same thing happen last year when Hyundai sales were on a downward trend, only to be boosted at the end of the year by a fleet dump. As I said before, it this continues for March it definitely will be a worrying trend.

plex

iTrader: (11)

It will take a lot for any company to beat or even reach Honda and Toyota Numbers. While I rate Hyundai better than the domestic manufacturers it will take a lot more to get into the same arena with the two most reliable Japanese manufacturers.

If you want to use the "they can't beat Honda and Toyota" to descredit Hyundai go ahead it seems that's your mission here.

TRDFantasy

Once again you jump to conclusions and make personal assumptions about me .

I asked a simple honest question, as I genuinely want to know why.

plex

iTrader: (11)

If you wanted to really know the answer you wouldn't ask on a Lexus forum. You would go do actual research and find out.

Tell what is it you don't like about Hyundai?

INHOCJP

Sorry, but that comment just made me laugh.

I have friends who drive various high end cars who aren't fond of Lexus...which they constantly refer to as LE-SUCKS. Not too rich, powerful or superb sounding. Too bad I can't think of a witty name for their Porsches or Ferraris!

carguy101

First, there are at least "some" conquest sales from Toyota and Honda sales. This type of thing is not quantifiable. But there are definitely many previous Toyota and Honda owners out there who have bought from Hyundai.

As to your question, it is simple. Hyundai products have improved tremendously in the past ten years, but so have Toyota and Honda products, which were already pretty good to begin with. OVERALL, Toyota and Honda products still have an edge over Hyundai in the respective classes.

But that edge is closing in some models. Take the 2009 Sonata GLS 4 cyl. vs. 2009 Camry LE 4 cyl. for example. These are bread and butters for each company. Toyota probably sells at least 250,000 Camry LE 4 cyl. per year, for godsakes. Anyways, the Sonata makes more power, gets better mpg, is larger inside. The driving characteristics are similar. And IMO, the Sonata has a better interior. It's hard to make an objective case of why the 2009 Camry LE 4 cyl. is a "better" car than the 2009 Sonata GLS 4 cyl.

TRDFantasy

I have my own hypothesis why Hyundai isn't conquesting sales from Toyota or Honda, most of which I've mentioned in previous posts. I just want to hear if anyone else has explanations.

I have nothing specifically against Hyundai (as I've said before) I simply don't see their management style bringing them long-term success unless they change. I also don't agree with giving Hyundai more credit than they deserve. A lot of people are quick to explain and point out the success that Hyundai has achieved, yet most people are at a loss to explain Hyundai's faults and problems.

I try to be realistic and I don't like giving more credit than deserved, or giving credit where it's not due. Just because they've achieved such improvement and success over the past few years, does not mean all of a sudden they are on par with Honda or Toyota, and it does not mean that all of a sudden the Hyundai brand is strong enough to support a luxury sedan, or to compete with luxury and near-luxury brands.

You're right, there are *some* conquests from Toyota and Honda but not that much. The data out there shows most of Hyundai's conquests come from American brands.

So there you have it. Honda and Toyota overall have an edge of Hyundai. In other words Hyundai is not quite there yet in terms of competing with the top major brands out there.

As for the Sonata, well let me put it this way; the current 2008 Sonata 4 cyl already makes more power than the Camry 4 cyl, and it gets roughly the same mpg. If you look at it on paper, the Sonata seems great, but in real world testing and driving it falls short. The ride/handling compromise and overall ride quality is not on par with the Camry, and the 4 cyl does not match the refinement of the Camry's 4 cyl. As well, even with the 2009 revised V6 Hyundai still cannot match the V6 offered in the Camry, which is arguably the best V6 in the class with only the Accord's V6 possibly matching it.

The 2009 Sonata *on paper* looks even better compared to the Camry, but I have my doubts that it will improve sales. Don't forget the Sonata's price will be going up as well for 2009. I think that the Sonata is very strong in individual specs and aspects, but I feel Hyundai isn't quite there yet in offering the "total overall" package.

The Camry gets a refresh for MY 2010 and that will be coming in a few months. The Camry is rumoured to get a possible interior update or a new 4 cyl.

carguy101

Well, don't we all feel that way about ourselves. Your sense of "reality" is obviously very different from that of many other posters here.

carguy101

Hm, I guess in your world it falls short to the 4 cyl. Camry. In other "real world testing", such as Car & Driver comparision tests, the 4 cyl. Sonata and the 4 cyl. Optima were both ranked ahead of the 4 cyl. Camry, in 2 separate tests.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...omparison_test

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._test/(page)/1

TRDFantasy

I'm looking at the facts and trying to keep my opinion out of this. The facts right now speak for themselves, in terms of Hyundai sales.

Besides, Hyundai as a company barely likes to talk much, let alone talk about or openly admit to it's problems. We will likely see soon enough some hard data from the industry regarding where Hyundai's problems are stemming from and why.