TRDFantasy

Did I say "my world"? How long will you and other posters keep up this habit of jumping to conclusions and making assumptions .

I simply offered a possible explanation as to why people continue to buy the Camry over the Sonata. Like I said, the Sonata *seems* to be very competitive, with a better 4 cyl than the Camry on paper, but people still are not buying the Sonata in large numbers.

I'd love to hear your explanation of why the Sonata isn't selling, if by your own admission, you think it's superior to the Camry 4 cyl.

Yes, objectively speaking and on paper it's hard to make a case as for how and why a 4 cyl Camry is better than a 4 cyl Sonata.

Some reviews have rated the Sonata higher than the Camry, and some reviews have rated it lower than the Camry.

carguy101

Um, you did say that in "real world testing", the 4 cyl. Sonata "falls short" to the 4 cyl. Camry. I simply provided "real world testing" where the opposite was true. My "your world" comment is obviously tongue-in-cheek.

For the 4 cyl., my personal preference is the Sonata over the Camry. For the 6 cyl., my personal preference is the Camry over the Sonata. Doesn't make anything more or less superior, it's just my personal taste.

You asked for my explanation for Sonata's poor sales relative to the Camry, here it is:

1) Poor brand perception and reputation - HUGE factor
2) I think that the interior of the 2006-2008 Sonata is poorly designed. The 2009 Sonata interior seems like a vast improvement. We'll see if that stimulates sales at all or not.

TRDFantasy

Fair enough .

It's interesting that you say the current Sonata interior is poorly designed. Many people have said the interior is better than the Camry.

One other point: I think Hyundai needs to stop with this revolving door of constantly hiring and firing US executives. Hyundai also needs to commit itself to a consistent marketing program in order to raise brand perception and reputation.

carguy101

It's certainly not good from a morale standpoint, and I would agree with you there. My guess is that it is the result of "office politics" back at home.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

It's not really a flawed comparison. Here is my reason. I'm simply comparing the cars out there today by Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai. Not what they made in the past or their past history. Too me, it is flawed to buy a car simply based on their past reputation and history. I will agree the past reputation and history will get me in the door, but once there you have to evaluate and judge the car sitting in front of you. In this case, Honda and Toyota today really have nothing much over Hyundai. I still do rank them higher over all, but I also rank the current Hyundai cars as at least on par.

Right now it almost sounds like you are saying people will buy and pay a lot of money for a crappy Honda and Toyota because they have a strong reputation and history, but wont buy a good Hyundai because of their troubled past reputation and relatively short history. That too me is a flawed way to buy a car.

Keep in mind I'm a huge Honda fan (Or was) and a huge Lexus fan (Not really Toyota though). For me, Toyota and Honda and a little bit of Lexus has been huge disappointments for me on the last few years. Hyundai on the other hand, even though I may or many not actually buy on in the future, has been surprising me year after year lately. I'm not talking about sales numbers here, I'm just talking about what products they are making of late.

LexFather

Cough Cough, Acura went from names to random numerica/alpha numbers Why? B/C Acura officials realized 10 years late how important it was to market the name "Acura" instead of "Legend" or "Integra".

Sorry dude but in the REAL WORLD, names do count for tons. People do buy based on badge and have biases based on badge. No company wants a brand or name people cannot identify with or easily pick out.

Perception is reality. Look at Benz, most of the public had NO idea how bad their quality had gotten. Most have no idea Lexus makes a IS-F.

I actually like the name Genesis. A silly name was Isuzu Axiom and well, its now discontinued (well the brand is gone).

Marketing with brains and management/product planners with a clue KNOW how IMPORTANT names and brands on. It is what companies can live/die by.

Another example is international cars. Many companies in the past were not careful with the names they picked. What a name means in one country can stand for poo in another.

LexFather

He is correct though. That IS reality. Toyotas and Hondas (especially Honda) today makes some of the WORST looking or blandest vehicles on the planet. They still sell PERIOD.

I guarantee you, badge an Element, a MDX, a FJ Cruiser, a Matrix etc a Ford or a Kia and it will ROT as people say "its ugly". B/C they are Honda/Toyota, people BUY BUY BUY.

Bose is another prime example. Great name, I credit them for building it. Universally regareded by audiophiles as monkey crap.

Lets look at Nike shoes. Are they worth $150? DO they make you jump higher? Nope. They also are of WORSE quality today than 10 years ago. People buy them still, they complain and buy.

Companies would DIE to have a brand name that is so recognizable, no matter how bad your product it, people will buy it OVER the better, lesser known or less prestigious competition.

Does it make sense? It depends on who you are. To some its ridiculous, they have a point. They would rather for instance choice a comparable Acura RL that 99.9% of the public knows nothing about.

Most, will pick the 230hp 528 b/c its a BMW and it costs more (MSRP).

LexFather

Thank you everyone for keeping this a spirited but mature debate after the first page. Kudos to you all.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I'm not saying that this isn't reality. I'm saying it is a flawed reality. That is why crappy cars sell well and good cars sit on the dealers lot. People are not buying cars based on the car itself. People are buying cars based on the name, image and prestige of the brand. Yes, that is reality, but that makes those buyers idiots as I said before. That is a flawed way of buying any product even if it happens every day. That was my point.

My wife was in marketing and Public Relations. I know how all this works and that it does work. I just think it is stupid. But that is why I'm not in marketing or business and in engineering. You can tell the mechanics of it get me going and not the marketing hype.

TRDFantasy

Yeah it's a flawed way to buy a car, but the world isn't perfect or ideal and that is the reality.

Hyundai top management cannot be making decisions based on an "ideal" world. The reality simply is that a lot of people ignore Hyundai because the brand is not that strong in terms of reputation or perception. Hyundai is definitely taking a risk by stretching the brand to incorporate a premium sedan, and we will see whether that risk pays off or not.

Hyundai did impress me over the past several years but for the last 1-2 years now I've actually started to lose respect for Hyundai.

It's all a matter of opinion. Apart from some of the quality problems, I absolutely love what Toyota has done over the past few years, especially with the Lexus brand. I really like how Toyota has tried hard to cater to the market and to cater to what Toyota/Lexus owners want. On the other hand, I've been hugely dissapointed with what Honda has done over the past few years. There was once a time when I liked Honda more than any other brands. That time for me has now long passed.

mmarshall

Honda/Acura vehicles, with the exception of some transmission issues several years back and the GM-supplied automatic sliding door mechanisms on older Odysseys, have not shown any decrease in build quality lately. IMO they are now, in general, better than Toyota products, though the new Corolla and Highlander test out very nice (see my reviews). But, I agree.....several new Toyota products, notably the Camry, Sequoia, and Tundra, are disappointments.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Can you give me some examples of crappy cars that are selling well and good cars that are sitting on the lot?

whoster

Hyundai isn't a name, or a derivative word.

it simply means "modern" in Korean.


Hyundai, along with Samsung, is one of the biggest conglomerates that operate globally out of Korea. They do massive construction AND real estate, financial services, industrial manufacturing, consumer manufacturing, even agriculture... Hyundai isn't new to business and they know how to make money.

Sure the feudal lordship hierarchy of management might seem antiquated and shocking to western cultures--but Hyundai is a very successful global company--the automotive market is only a fraction of their global business direction. As others have stated, regardless the different management style, that exact style has created a product line rivalling that of companies that have been in the car business since the beginning. Hyundai Motors began its humble offerings by rebadging Korean-assembled Mitsubishi vans and compact cars back in the 1970s, but has become a namesake of a huge debate here in America whether they're going to affect Toyota and Honda's sales.

Only because Hyundai isn't a well-established brand here in the United States--it doesn't stand true in Korea. I remember even back in '80s, a Hyundai Sonata outside your front door was a big sign of success to the up-and-coming upper middle class. The Hyundai Grandeur (later rebadged for overseas markets as the XG series) was the top choice of government officials and executives who were chauffeured around their daily commute. Lately in recent years, Hyundai's creation of the Equus Executive Sedan (offering both regular and stretch-wheelbase versions) really kicked up the luxury car market in South Korea. Compared to Ssangyong's Chairman (a rebadged, reclad S-Class from two generations ago), the Equus Sedan presented a Korean-engineered and built product for the upper class. Koreans harbor a strong nationalist spirit--even in their materialistic consumption, and the proliferation of strong Korean brands in the home market is evidence to that. I have relatives and family friends in Korea who had been holding off a new car purchase (even when they had the money for a foreign brand car) just in anticipation of the "handsome Genesis."

As much as many of assume that Hyundai is taking a stupid dive into the luxury niche without avail--I'm sure this is what critics said of Toyota's introduction of the Lexus LS back in 1989.

The simple matter here is, Hyundai isn't here to dabble in the automotive market. They're here to play the game, and they've got the money to back their ventures.

Although there are striking similarities to VW's failed Phaeton, the Genesis doesn't cost an obscene amount of money like the Phaeton.

ElitistK

iTrader: (4)

NWS for language: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y281/k3n_chu/GOAT.gif

cliffs: every car is crap compared to the z06.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

In the past I would say a Ford Taurus or Chevy Cavalier would have been crappy cars IMHO that sold well. The Acura NSX was a great car with a poor sales record. The Ford Explorer IMHO is a crappy SUV with great sales record. How about a Dodge Neon? I thought the F50 Q45 was a good car (Not great) and it flopped in sales.

Today, the Acura RL is a great car with a poor sales record. The Lexus ES350 is a not so great car with a great sales record. Now, my idea of crap and great may be different than yours, but these are my examples.