UDel

I am a little nervous with the new TL after seeing the underwelming RL refresh and new TSX. I am hoping Acura decides since the TL sells so well and has such a following they will go all out with the TL and not worry about it surpasing the RL refresh. I am hoping the TL is not just going to be in the middle of the RL and TSX and look like them both mixed together and take on its own styling. The current car is a home run, I just saw a black one that looked like it was just detailed and it looked so nice.

As for the people complaining about Acura still using the J series, yes it is getting pretty old but it is still a great engine and still has some life left in it. It is extremely smooth-one of the smoothest if not smoothest v6 in its class, provides great power, and returns good fuel economy. The newer VQ is much rougher and pretty course especially at high rpm and returns miserable v8 like real world fuel economy. I have also been reading posts where many are not getting good fuel economy from their new 3.5 IS and GS with many between 18-23mpg where the TLs average much higher real world fuel economy with a 5 speed instead of a 6 speed. It may be down on some power but with high gas prices and the economy going in the dumps I think people are going to be caring alot more about fuel economy in their entry level lux/sports sedans then having a little more power and torque.

None of this is really credible information though and I will wait for the final specs from Acura when the car is released. I just hope they don't mess things up but the current one is a very hard car to improve on as it is excellent and unique on the road and has a huge following.

TRDFantasy

Much rougher and pretty course? Do you have any concrete or objective proof to back this up? The VQ is renowned for its smoothness, and the new VQ is no exception.

Which newer VQ? The 3.7L in the G37? It gets fuel economy almost similar to the TL, yet it makes much more power than the TL's 3.2L or the 3.5L in the Type S.

I have read posts where TL owners are getting horrible V8-like fuel economy, what's your point? Personal observation here means very little. Apples to apples, looking at the facts the IS350 and GS350 get EPA numbers extremely close to the TL, despite making quite a bit more power and torque. Apples to apples, the G37 coupe also offers EPA numbers very close to the TL, while making more power.

Looking at the facts, Honda couldn't make more than 300HP with the J-Series despite a displacement of 3.7L. The Lexus 3.5L engine makes MORE power and more torque with less displacement. The Nissan 3.7L makes much more power than with the same displacement.

Sorry but "still has some life in it" doesn't cut it in the luxury market and if you're a struggling brand like Acura.

UDel

You must have never driven a new VQ hard nor read any reviews on the newer Nissan/Infiniti models with VQs, because most say the engine is not as smooth as the competiton and pretty course when taken to its limits, that was one of their biggest complaints. Also I am talking real world fuel economy not what manufactures or EPA figures say as there are tons of complainsts of owners of G35s/G37s,M35s, and other VQ cars getting very poor gas mileage and far below what the car is rated at. I had a G35 rental and the engine was not very smooth, a good deal rougher then my GS430 and my parents Acura TL/CL v6s and when driven hard it seemed like it was not made to be driven to full throttle and made some scary noises, it got terrible fuel economy too. I averaged about 16 to 18 mpg even when taking it easy and mostly highway driving, nowhere near what it was rated. I have not read any posts about TLs getting v8 like horrible fuel economy, but maybe a few people think it gets horrible fuel economy, most of what I read about the TLs fuel economy is positive and there are rarely complainsts unless maybe someone who is aggresive driving it in stop and go driving is expecting 29 mpg and not getting anywhere near that. My parents average about 29mpg on their J series TL/CL and that is only maybe part highway driving which is very respectable, my dad averaged 31mpg with highway traveling last vacation in his CL.

Acura is far from a struggling brand too, their sales numbers are great and so are their ratings and reviews which are some of the highest in the industry. Just because you don't like Acura and critisize them all the time does not mean Acura is struggling, they just don't build vehicles that you like. They could use some more help with their image they need to sell more expensive vehicles but so do many luxury makes and we will see what happens in the future when the next NSX comes out and cars based on that platform come out. There are really only 3 luxury car companies out now that have the image to sell expensive cars in fairly large numbers which is Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus if you are not counting super expensive lux brands like Aston Martin, Rolls Royce, Bently,etc. The rest of the luxury makes are not very successful in selling cars over 50K and it does not mean they are really struggling. Even for Lexus it is only the LS that is over 50K and really successful right now compared to the competiton. The new GS and the SC don't really sell all that well compared to the E class and 5 series and Merc SL and the GS generally gets lukewarm reviews and has been having quite a bit of issues.

Like I said I hope Acura does a good job with the TL and does not force it to look just like a cross between the TSX and RL refresh and lets it have a look of its ownand allow its performance to surpass the RL refresh. I am a little nervous with the new TL as I am pretty dissapointed in the new TSX and RL refresh. The TL is one of the top selling cars in its class and even though people love hp most are not complaining the TL is underpowered or that 280-300 in a new one is somehow not enough besides a few. There is nothing wrong with the J series aside from it being a little older then the rest. It is smooth, powerful, reliable, and gets good fuel economy and a change would be welcome but is not needed right now. Having 6hp less then the competiton is not that big of a deal and the LexusIS has the 250 version that only has 205hp yet when optioned similiar to the TL is around the same price and can be even more expensive. Why are you not complaining about the 205hp IS? It is the 205hp IS250 that is the top selling version of the IS not the 306hp IS350, I have yet to see a 350 on the road as the 250 sells so much more.

Of all the new Acura grills I like the MDX the most and think something similiar would look very good on the new TL if done right and it would have been much better suited for the RL refresh. I am really hoping the new TL will look like the Honda Sports 4 concept that came out a few years ago but it seems like Acura is unfortunately not going to base their new look on that good looking concept.

kyang91

iTrader: (5)

hmm.....Can not see what Acura can come up with to compete with the Big boys....haha

TRDFantasy

You originally stated that "the newer VQ" was coarse, unrefined, and got poor fuel economy. Now you're mentioning some older VQ engines.

I HAVE driven a new VQ (2007 G35 sedan). I found the engine to be quite smooth, including at high RPMs. I did not get a chance to gauge fuel economy.

I've also driven a few Nissans with older VQ engines (2003 Altima, 2004 Quest) and I found them to be quite smooth even at high RPMs.

Yes the VQ is certainly not the smoothest engine around, and certainly not when you compare it to a benchmark engine in terms of smoothness like the Lexus 4.0L V8.

I've also driven several Hondas with the J-Series (2004 Accord, 2006 Odyssey). I found the engine to be only slightly smoother than the VQ overall. At low RPMs the J-Series IMHO seemed coarser than the VQ. At medium and high RPMs the J-Series was slightly more smoother and refined.

I have read posts of people getting 16-18 mpg taking it easy in TLs. Like I said earlier, personal observations do not count for very much.

I will agree that older VQ engines had poor fuel economy, but if you're talking about the newest VQ, the 3.7L with VVEL then it DOES get good fuel economy.

Acura *is* a struggling luxury brand, and this has nothing to do with my opinion. These are the cold hard facts. Acura brand perception is very low in the US, according to at least one industry study. Out of all luxury brands, Acura had one of the biggest sales drops last year, a year where many of the major luxury brands saw sales increase. This year so far, Acura's sales drop is one of the worst compared to all other luxury brands.

When the TL, Acura's most popular car is cross-shopped most with the Accord, that's not a sign of success.

Sorry, but the IS250 does not really compete with the TL. It's more of a TSX competitor. The IS250 base price is 3K less than that of the TL. Similarly optioned, the IS250 will still likely end up cheaper. The IS350 is more of a TL competitor. Also seeing as pricing is up for the new TSX, expect the new TL to go up in price as well. It's likely to be priced close to the IS350. Seeing as most TL buyers don't even cross-shop the IS, but rather the Accord it's not a good thing.

On paper, the TL competes most directly with the ES and Infiniti G. Problem is, not that many people cross-shop an ES and Infiniti G with the TL.

I hope for Acura's sake that the new TL is more differentiated from the Accord, so as to reduce the cross-shopping of the two models.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

When I drove the 07 G35-S I thought the engine was pretty smooth. Total package with tranny I thought it was as smooth as my 99 LS400 that I drove to the dealership in. I took that sucker to near redline as well. I know mmarshall wont like to hear that but the salesman was okay with it. Anyway, I also thought the current KB1 RL was also a very smooth ride. Engine and tranny worked well and shifted and felt very smooth. So while I do think the Honda J motor may be a little smoother over all, I still do think both are getting old and neither are getting the fuel economy numbers posted or real world numbers that some of the current engines from Lexus are getting.

Al do; however, think there still is some room left for a lot more HP in the J series engines. They have basically only bumped HP by about 40-50 since 97, or at least when the CL/TL-S came out. I would say if Honda is really going to use the J35/37 for the complete model run of this new TL, they will probably be pushing 350HP by its end of its cycle life.

UDel

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...omparison_test

Here is one article from Car and Driver how the G35 sedan engine was course, sent vibrations up the shifter, and made bad noises at the upper end. I can find others as I have read the same thing from different sources and felt it myself and these are newer VQ engines. Also when the VQ was in the older Maxima at 3 liters it was actually a very smooth engine and I was highly impressed with it but that was a long time ago like the early to mid 90's but lets compare Infiniti,Acura, Lexus tuning and versions of those engines in their cars instead of Hondas, Toyota, Nissans. As it has grown in size and power it has gotten a bit rougher and course.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=4460
Here is an article saying the TL-S had a much smoother engine then the G35 and IS350 and they complained about the G35 being rough although they chalked it up to more the drivetrain vibration then the engine it seemed.

If you are going to compare the J series with Infiniti and Lexus motors at least compare them with similiar Acura models instead of Honda minivans which I believe the Odyssey had some kind of cylinder deactivation system and would be pretty different then Acuras version in the TL/RL. Also if you are talking power wise and why the J series does not make quite as much as the Lexus and Infiniti versions you have to take into account that the J series is a SOHC unit while the Lexus and Infinti are DOHC units which is going to help them with power and delivery a bit but will generally lead to worse mileage then a similiar SOHC unit.

Acura is not struggling, they are doing very well, you do know that all Acura cars are at the end of their lifecycles and new versions are on the horizon so of course there numbers will be down right now and not as good as 04 when the new TL debuted while Lexus just came out with the IS and ES a few years ago as well as Infiniti just coming out with the new G35 sedan/G35 coupe so of course they should be up right now with new models out. The GS and M are fairly new with many newer drivetrain options/versions spawned like the GS350,460, freshened M series with the M45AWD and improved power on the M35.

I don't know any TL owners that cross shopped the TL with Accords as they vary pretty highly in price and where they are in the market place-one is a family sedan and one is a entry lux/sports sedan. How do you know ES and G35 shoppers don't cross shop with TLs, the fact is all those cars and the IS are heavily shopped together, actually the ES is not as commonly shopped with the IS, G, TL because those cars focus more on being sporty where the ES is not sporty at all. I rarely see the ES compared to TLs, G35, 3 series, IS, C class. You can say the same thing about the ES in that it is mostly shopped with Camry's and Avalons which is actually which it compares the most too as they are very similiar, what is the point. There may be some who cross shop a TL and Accord but their is also people cross shopping Maximas with G35s and Camries/Avalons with ES/IS, who cares. Do you really think the IS is luring away a bunch of BMW 3 series and C class buyers or are they most likely Toyota/Lexus owners? If as you say the only people really buying TLs are Accord owners/shoppers and not people in the entry level lux/sports sedan market then why is the TL always compared to the Lexus IS, Infiniti G35, BMW 3 series, Mercedes C class in reveiws and it usaully places very high in these comparisons. I have never seen the TL in a comparison with an Accord or Camry or car in that class and if that is what the car was mainly cross shopped with then car mags would compare it to what it is most cross shopped with.

The current TL and the last Gen Accord which were out around the same time looked nothing alike inside or out and there was a big difference in price. You can get Accords in the low to mid 20's where a TL is in the mid 30's and around 40 when loaded up on a type S model. They were never compared to each other. Only if you get a fully loaded Accord that an Accord and base TL are about 4K or 5K different in price but most people who buy family sedans don't get the v6 versions fully loaded so I am not sure where you are getting that people who were in the market for TLs were mainly comparing it to a Accord. Accord buyers who wanted to step up to a nicer more expensive car may have accounted for a chunk of TL sales but the same thing occurs with a large number of Toyota Camry/Avalon owners stepping up to Lexus ES/IS and Altima/Maxima/350Z owners stepping up to G35 sedans and G35/37 coupes.

One consumer reports study had Acura pretty low on a image survey, it does not suddenly mean the brand is struggling and in a bunch of trouble, they are doing very well and will be doing better when the new designs/cars hit the dealerships, right now most of their lineup is at the end of its cycle.

And I am not saying I don't like the G35 sedan or G35/37 coupe as I am very impressed with those cars, I love the G35 coupe and heavily shopped it when I was getting a car and I really like the M35/45 and will heavily consider a used one for my next car. I am just saying from experience and what I have read that the newer 3.5l VQs are a bit rough especially at high rpm and generally get terrible real world fuel economy and I have heard and seen many complain that it is not getting close to its ratings.

jwong77

When the first J-Series motor came out in 97 on the 3.0 CL, it made only 200hp, with the more outdated HP ratings (so it probably only made 190hp). Since then they've made it to 290hp on the current RL, so they've actually been able to boost it by about 100hp, given the different way the HP is rated. But then they've also increased the displacement by .7, so it makes sense. Until the SH-AWD came out, I thought they kept the HP down because they only had FWD.