GM hybrid sales off to a slow start in 2008
04-20-08, 08:57 PM
#31
Gas mileage gains generally ARE relative. Ask any engineer the economy gains to be seem from more gears in a transmission or movement to a cvt, weight reduction, direct injection, a given hybrid system, etc.. they'll give you the gains in a percentage relative to the base line comparison.
Let's put it this way. If you were going to spend $3000 in city driving gas in your Tahoe... you'll now only spend $2000. That's pretty significant.
The Hybrid uses an Atkinson I4, not a V6.
It does see a pretty impressive gain of 70% city mileage vs the 4-cyl as well as a moderate bump in power... but it also uses a different motor design vs the traditional 4-cyl... Atkinson cycle, plus a CVT transmission, which by itself would likely boost the mileage of even a non-hybrid Escape by a fairly significant margin.
Not saying the Escape Hybrid isn't impressive... it definitely is. I'm just saying you're comparing a Tahoe which still uses a 6.0L V8 with 4-speed auto and 2-mode hybrid system to a 5.3L non hybrid Tahoe 4-speed auto. The only real difference there is the hybrid system.
The Escape actually uses a more efficient base 4-cyl motor, plus CVT, in addition to its hybrid system.
Let's put it this way. If you were going to spend $3000 in city driving gas in your Tahoe... you'll now only spend $2000. That's pretty significant.
The Hybrid uses an Atkinson I4, not a V6.
It does see a pretty impressive gain of 70% city mileage vs the 4-cyl as well as a moderate bump in power... but it also uses a different motor design vs the traditional 4-cyl... Atkinson cycle, plus a CVT transmission, which by itself would likely boost the mileage of even a non-hybrid Escape by a fairly significant margin.
Not saying the Escape Hybrid isn't impressive... it definitely is. I'm just saying you're comparing a Tahoe which still uses a 6.0L V8 with 4-speed auto and 2-mode hybrid system to a 5.3L non hybrid Tahoe 4-speed auto. The only real difference there is the hybrid system.
The Escape actually uses a more efficient base 4-cyl motor, plus CVT, in addition to its hybrid system.
04-21-08, 07:17 AM
#33
Lexus Champion
According to fuel economy.gov:
Chevy Aveo 24/34 combined: 27
Toyota Yaris :29/36 combined:32
Chevy Cobalt 24/33 combined:27
Toyota Corolla 28/37 comined 31
*Chevy "Classic" 21/31 combined 25
Toyota Camry 21/31 combined 25
Chevy Malibu 22/30
Camry Hybrid 33/34 combined 34
Malibu Hybrid 24/32 combined 27
Chevy Uplander 16/23 combined 19
Toyota Sienna 17/23 combined 19
2wd Chevy Colorado 18/24 combined 20
2wd Toyota Tacoma 20/25 combined 22
4wd Chevy Colorado 16/22 combined 18
4wd Toyota Tacoma 17/22 combined 19
4wd Chevy Silverado with 6.0 13/17 combined 14
4wd Toyota Tundra with 5.7 13/17 combined 14
4wd Chevy Equinox V6 17/24 combined 19
4wd Toyota RAV4 V6 19/26 combined 21
4wd Chevy Tahoe V8 11/14 combined 12
4wd Toyota 4Runner V8 14/17 combined 15
4wd Chevy T-blazer 14/20 combined 16
4wd Toyota Highlander 17/23 combined 19
4wd Chevy Suburban 12/17 combined 14
4wd Toyota Sequoia 13/18 combined 15
So which vehicle in Chevy's lineup gets better mileage overall than their toyota counterpart?
Chevy Aveo 24/34 combined: 27
Toyota Yaris :29/36 combined:32
Chevy Cobalt 24/33 combined:27
Toyota Corolla 28/37 comined 31
*Chevy "Classic" 21/31 combined 25
Toyota Camry 21/31 combined 25
Chevy Malibu 22/30
Camry Hybrid 33/34 combined 34
Malibu Hybrid 24/32 combined 27
Chevy Uplander 16/23 combined 19
Toyota Sienna 17/23 combined 19
2wd Chevy Colorado 18/24 combined 20
2wd Toyota Tacoma 20/25 combined 22
4wd Chevy Colorado 16/22 combined 18
4wd Toyota Tacoma 17/22 combined 19
4wd Chevy Silverado with 6.0 13/17 combined 14
4wd Toyota Tundra with 5.7 13/17 combined 14
4wd Chevy Equinox V6 17/24 combined 19
4wd Toyota RAV4 V6 19/26 combined 21
4wd Chevy Tahoe V8 11/14 combined 12
4wd Toyota 4Runner V8 14/17 combined 15
4wd Chevy T-blazer 14/20 combined 16
4wd Toyota Highlander 17/23 combined 19
4wd Chevy Suburban 12/17 combined 14
4wd Toyota Sequoia 13/18 combined 15
So which vehicle in Chevy's lineup gets better mileage overall than their toyota counterpart?
Aside from that there are other drivetrain offerings that you've left unlisted for obvious reasons (the differences aren't as impressive in Toyota's favor) and some flat out wrong comparisons, such as the 4runner and Tahoe... not only did you mismatch that comparison, but you also quoted the rated mileage of the Tahoe when on Ethanol, which will cause a dramatic reduction in miles per gallon in any vehicle due to the lesser energy content of ethanol fuel.
The 4x4 Tahoe on regular gas is rated at 14/19 which is better than the 4-runner V8 and Seq V8
And while we're at it, the Trailblazer is what should be compared to the 4runner, and it gets better mileage as well.
Plenty other models and configs of models get the same or within 1/2 mpg of their Toyota equivalent.
Which sustains my point.
Last edited by Threxx; 04-21-08 at 07:22 AM.
04-21-08, 08:25 AM
#34
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And while we're at it, the Trailblazer is what should be compared to the 4runner, and it gets better mileage as well.
Im surprised that Chevy doesn't have a CVT in the works for their hybrids. But then again, maybe Im not. Its GM. However, I was dissapointed to see that the Taurus X lost its CVT, afterall thats what made that large thing have good gas mileage. I'd like to see more CVT applications in the Corolla, Focus, etc. Supposedly Subaru is working on a new CVT to replace their ailing 4 speed autos. Ick.
04-21-08, 08:44 AM
#35
Lexus Champion
The two different hybrid systems GM currently uses (mild and 2-mode) can work with CVTs but it's not an assumed design.
As for their vehicles in general not using CVTs... they actually did around 5 years ago but had some reliability issues and customer complaints about the way it drove and they scrapped the CVT.
I suspect they'll be moving back to a CVT on some of their models within the next few years.
11-27-10, 05:01 PM
#36
Gov't Aid
WASHINGTON (Bloomberg) -- President Barack Obama's administration has bought almost a 4th of the Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Co. hybrid vehicles sold since he took office, accelerating federal purchases as consumer demand wanes.
The U.S. General Services Administration, which runs the government fleet, bought at least 14,584 hybrid vehicles in the past 2 fiscal years, or about 10% of 145,473 vehicles the agency purchased in that period, according to sales data obtained by Bloomberg under a Freedom of Information Act request. In fiscal 2008, hybrids accounted for less than 1% of government purchases, the data showed.
The government is boosting investment in a technology that has failed to win broad acceptance after more than a decade in the marketplace. Consumer sales of hybrids are headed for their 3rd consecutive yearly decline. Government agencies and businesses have said they also will purchase all-electric models being introduced by automakers including GM.
“At some point, the reality is that for this technology to be accepted, it needs to be done without a government crutch,” said Jeff Schuster, director of forecasting at J.D. Power & Associates in Troy, Mich. “But without a huge gas-price increase or further government demand, the natural demand just isn't to be there.”
Stimulus money used
About 3,100 of the hybrids purchased by GSA were paid for out of $300 million that the agency received from the 2009 economic stimulus package, said Sara Merriam, a spokeswoman for the agency. Another 5,600 were bought with proceeds from selling older cars in the government fleet, she said. A majority of fiscal 2009 hybrid sales came after Obama took office in January 2009.
“This is the beginning,” Merriam said. “Our main goal is to increase the fuel efficiency of the federal fleet. The other goal is to drive the market toward cleaner technologies. It's in the early stages of the government acquiring more hybrids and in larger quantities.”
The models purchased by the government ranged from $23,072 to $47,079, according to the data.
The government paid an average of $5,281 less for its hybrid vehicles than sticker prices at a dealership, according to a comparison of the GSA purchase data with prices collected by Edmunds.com, a consumer information website.
Global sales of hybrids, plug-in hybrids and electric cars are projected to be 954,500 vehicles, or 2.2% of the 44.7 million passenger vehicles projected to be sold this year, J.D. Power said in an October report. That may rise to 5.2 million units in 2020, according to the report.
Not cost competitive
“The lesson learned is that it isn't easy to make these vehicles mainstream,” said Brett Smith, who specializes in alternative propulsion vehicles at the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich. “They are still not near the point where they are cost-competitive in the market.”
Toyota Motor Corp. sold the 1st hybrid Prius in Japan in 1997 and Honda Motor Co. introduced the 1st hybrid to the U.S. in 1999. Total U.S. hybrid sales since then have been about 1.8 million, or about 1% of the 175 million cars and trucks sold during that period. More than half of those hybrids were Prius models.
The U.S. government buys hybrids almost exclusively from Ford and GM. It bought only 17 Prius models and 5 of Honda's Civic hybrids in the past 2 years. Chrysler Group LLC stopped making hybrids in 2008 after about 2 months of production.
The government purchased about 64% of GM's Chevy Malibu hybrid models and 29% of all Ford Fusion hybrids manufactured since Obama took office in 2009, the data show. GM stopped making the Malibu hybrid in 2009 after lack of consumer demand.
Leading by example
GSA also bought about 14%rd Escape hybrids. Obama leased a hybrid Escape for himself in May 2007, before he was elected president. He turned it in this year because he's rarely allowed to drive.
“It is good that the government leads by example,” Dan Becker, director of the Washington-based Safe Climate Campaign, said in an interview. “At a time when we're just beginning the era of the hybrid, it's a positive sign that the government is stepping up to the plate and helping build that market.”
The next wave of new technology vehicles are so-called plug-in hybrids and electric models. GM's Chevrolet Volt, which has a gasoline engine primarily for charging the battery, and Nissan Motor Co.'s full-electric Leaf go on sale later this year. Ford's Transit Connect electric delivery van is already on sale.
Plug-in goals
Obama has set a goal of 1 million plug-in vehicles on the road by 2015 and has committed more than $11 billion in taxpayer funding to help support the technology.
GSA has accepted bids for contracts that may supply 100 electric delivery vehicles from a Ford dealership in Minnesota and Smith Electric, an affiliate of Washington, England-based Tanfield Group, the agency said on its website.
Hybrid and electric vehicles can be $3,000 to $20,000 more expensive than gasoline models, Smith said. The U.S. offers as much as $7,500 in tax credits for the purchase of plug-in vehicles and about a dozen U.S. states offer additional incentives.
Hybrid and electric vehicle technology only makes sense if it can stand without government support, Ford Chief Executive Alan Mulally told Detroit-area supplier executives in a Nov. 8 speech that was closed to the media.
“He was saying, ‘You have to have a business that doesn't need all these government incentives,'” Karen Hampton, a Ford spokeswoman said, recounting the talk. “Incentives have a role to play when you're trying to get new technology off the ground or change behaviors, but it's not meant to be a permanent part of the business equation.”
Last edited by GS69; 11-27-10 at 05:09 PM.
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