Toyota, Electric Vehicles, Hybrids, & Chevron
04-28-08, 08:40 AM
#16
Lobuxracer, keep in mind the efficiency of the solar panels is not the "lifetime vs production" efficiency. It would be stupid for the manufacturers to produce something that captures a renewable resource if it took more energy to produce it. It's the actual operating efficiency that they are rated.
For example if one square foot of sunlight can produce 10 watts of electricity, then 40% efficiency means that each sqft of solar panel can capture 4w(not actual numbers just and example). A 40% efficient solar panel is quite amazing if you think about how much power it will be able to capture in it's 25-30 year lifespan. I belive the energy that went into producing it will be gained back within a few years if that.
Most of the "high-efficiency" commercially available solar panels right now produce about 200watts. These are about 30% efficient. With a 40% efficient panel, you will be able to produce 250-275watts in the same area.
Let's calcuate for currently widely available panels of 200w, 8hrs a day of bright sunlight(dusk/dawn don't count for full power), and 365days a year. That's 584Kw a year from one panel. Over it's lifespan of 25years it will generate roughly 14,016KW. Panels like that cost around $900 a piece right now. If electricity from the utilites costs 15cents a Kw then the equivalent will be $2102 from them.
For example if one square foot of sunlight can produce 10 watts of electricity, then 40% efficiency means that each sqft of solar panel can capture 4w(not actual numbers just and example). A 40% efficient solar panel is quite amazing if you think about how much power it will be able to capture in it's 25-30 year lifespan. I belive the energy that went into producing it will be gained back within a few years if that.
Most of the "high-efficiency" commercially available solar panels right now produce about 200watts. These are about 30% efficient. With a 40% efficient panel, you will be able to produce 250-275watts in the same area.
Let's calcuate for currently widely available panels of 200w, 8hrs a day of bright sunlight(dusk/dawn don't count for full power), and 365days a year. That's 584Kw a year from one panel. Over it's lifespan of 25years it will generate roughly 14,016KW. Panels like that cost around $900 a piece right now. If electricity from the utilites costs 15cents a Kw then the equivalent will be $2102 from them.
Last edited by JeffTsai; 04-28-08 at 08:43 AM.
04-28-08, 09:05 AM
#17
for those worried about blackouts, thats why you want to charge an electric car on off peak hours 1) kWh rate is lower, and 2) you dont overload the electrical grid.
As for rolling blackouts when Cali (and only Cali) turned on the A/C, why is that other states problems, sounds like a Cali problem to me.
Given that an EV will produce zero emissions directly and run an electric motor at 90% efficiency. You still cause pollution producing non electric vehicle and the NOx, CO, CO2 gasoline vehicle directly produces. If youre counting on a vehicle that produces no pollution from manafacturing to death, you wont find one ever.
Recycling a EV battery is no different than what companies do when Auto Zone takes your old battery and recycles it. Hybrid batteries have been shown to last even past the 100k mile warranty given on a toyota hybrid powertrain. Car batteries are generally replaced every 3-4 years. You are either producing literally tons of CO, CO2, NOx over the lifetime of a gasoline car, or producing battery waste which is recyclable at least. Try to recycle that NOx, CO, CO2 a gasoline vehicle puts out over its lifetime. Choose your evil. The big difference is you are running a 37% efficient engine vs a 90% efficient engine.
As for rolling blackouts when Cali (and only Cali) turned on the A/C, why is that other states problems, sounds like a Cali problem to me.
Given that an EV will produce zero emissions directly and run an electric motor at 90% efficiency. You still cause pollution producing non electric vehicle and the NOx, CO, CO2 gasoline vehicle directly produces. If youre counting on a vehicle that produces no pollution from manafacturing to death, you wont find one ever.
Recycling a EV battery is no different than what companies do when Auto Zone takes your old battery and recycles it. Hybrid batteries have been shown to last even past the 100k mile warranty given on a toyota hybrid powertrain. Car batteries are generally replaced every 3-4 years. You are either producing literally tons of CO, CO2, NOx over the lifetime of a gasoline car, or producing battery waste which is recyclable at least. Try to recycle that NOx, CO, CO2 a gasoline vehicle puts out over its lifetime. Choose your evil. The big difference is you are running a 37% efficient engine vs a 90% efficient engine.
Last edited by 4TehNguyen; 04-28-08 at 09:17 AM.
04-28-08, 09:33 AM
#18
Maybe car manufacturers should stop worrying about 10-20 year old Nickel Metal Hydride batteries with a patent and further develop Lithium Ion or other battery technology. Seriously, I can't believe the new electric cars will only get a 7 mile cruising range because of this. If that is indeed the reason why, I blame the car manufacturers for lack of R&D. Yes, I also think it is bad action by the Chevron if they are not allowing proven old technology from being used in the meantime, but the responsibility still lies on the car manufacturers to develop newer and better batteries like Lithium Ion or others.
04-28-08, 10:35 AM
#20
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i dont think its just the Ni-Mh technology that was bought out
because prius are using it
it is the efficient process of how the battery power is used that is bought out by the oil companies
and car manufacturers are just having a hard time finding a new way
because prius are using it
it is the efficient process of how the battery power is used that is bought out by the oil companies
and car manufacturers are just having a hard time finding a new way
04-28-08, 10:46 AM
#21
If that is the case I can see the hold up a bit, but I still have a hard time believe they cant find a way. There are already independent companies that convert ICE cars to full electric for customers that surely get more than 7 miles cruising range. How are they able to get around this patented technology blockade and not the large car manufacturers? They sell an all electric car called the Gem here in Hawaii that is really just a gloried golf cart IMHO, but it gets a few hundred miles cruising range on a charge.
04-28-08, 10:48 AM
#22
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yeah but a lot of them can only do intercity travels
once you go on the hwys, they tend to overheat
there are still some technical and safety concerns to go over and i believe that is whats holding them up
but of course i dont know the whole story so maybe there is some intentional hold up due to some political influences
these oil companies are just despicable
once you go on the hwys, they tend to overheat
there are still some technical and safety concerns to go over and i believe that is whats holding them up
but of course i dont know the whole story so maybe there is some intentional hold up due to some political influences
these oil companies are just despicable
04-28-08, 10:59 AM
#23
There can only be One
I noted this in another thread.
There are some interesting advancements coming from the brains at MIT on new battery technology. One of the issues with Li-ON was the potential to explode under lots of heat. Last I checked cars produce lots of heat.
Electric cars COULD be a good daily driver in the US (MAYBE) but as a long lasting source for mobility? Not so much. At least not yet. The biggest hurdle we have at least in the US is the amount of additional power stations that would need to be built. With Eco freaks getting in a tizzy over a Nuclear plant, its a long way off. Then we have the issue of being able to charge quickly. A rapid charger of some sort for vehicles.
People want to get in and go fast, get what they need and keep moving. If you only get 100-250 miles per charge that would make for a long road trip with a 8 hour wait to charge in between runs.
We are talking a new level of infrastructure that needs to be built everywhere. From the streets of NYC, to the suburb wal-mart. You need a place to "charge'. WE aren't there yet but if we continue pushing for it we will be.
There are some interesting advancements coming from the brains at MIT on new battery technology. One of the issues with Li-ON was the potential to explode under lots of heat. Last I checked cars produce lots of heat.
Electric cars COULD be a good daily driver in the US (MAYBE) but as a long lasting source for mobility? Not so much. At least not yet. The biggest hurdle we have at least in the US is the amount of additional power stations that would need to be built. With Eco freaks getting in a tizzy over a Nuclear plant, its a long way off. Then we have the issue of being able to charge quickly. A rapid charger of some sort for vehicles.
People want to get in and go fast, get what they need and keep moving. If you only get 100-250 miles per charge that would make for a long road trip with a 8 hour wait to charge in between runs.
We are talking a new level of infrastructure that needs to be built everywhere. From the streets of NYC, to the suburb wal-mart. You need a place to "charge'. WE aren't there yet but if we continue pushing for it we will be.
04-28-08, 11:23 AM
#24
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however US is not the only market for electric cars though
canada (west coast at least) has high abundance of clean electricity from all the hydro dams we have
so such infrastructure is much easier to implement here
Li-Ion charges much faster too and manufacturers are coming up with ways to charge with normal wall 120v sockets
my province, BC is doing a hydrogen highway that will be ready by 2010 so it will be interesting to see at least how hydrogen fuel cells fair and maybe that will bring in some more interest about more environmentally friendly ways to commute
but i really want to do something about it like standing up to the government that arent doing anything to stop this insanity
did you know that corporations are getting their legal rights through a law passed after the civil war to protect the african americans?
but apparently in one year, only like 1/10 of the cases filed for protection are by african americans, and the rest by corporations to give them same rights as individuals
then some corporations take that to an extreme and take advantage of situations and reap profits regardless of ethics
canada (west coast at least) has high abundance of clean electricity from all the hydro dams we have
so such infrastructure is much easier to implement here
Li-Ion charges much faster too and manufacturers are coming up with ways to charge with normal wall 120v sockets
my province, BC is doing a hydrogen highway that will be ready by 2010 so it will be interesting to see at least how hydrogen fuel cells fair and maybe that will bring in some more interest about more environmentally friendly ways to commute
but i really want to do something about it like standing up to the government that arent doing anything to stop this insanity
did you know that corporations are getting their legal rights through a law passed after the civil war to protect the african americans?
but apparently in one year, only like 1/10 of the cases filed for protection are by african americans, and the rest by corporations to give them same rights as individuals
then some corporations take that to an extreme and take advantage of situations and reap profits regardless of ethics
04-28-08, 12:44 PM
#25
Issues around pollution would not kill an electric car if there was demand for it. Also you should expect battery and power cell technologies to improve both in efficiency and manufacture as R&D money goes into the technology. During the mid and late 90's, fuel cell technology was not a hot issue as oil and gas prices were not an issue (in the US at least). As for pollution from the power plants, there is alway nuclear power...
The questions is whether people want and will buy a full electric car today with gas at $4.25 a gallon versus what it cost when they ran the trials...
I back hybrid and electric car technology not b/c of the eco-impact but more b/c I don't enjoy $100 fillups at the gas station.
The questions is whether people want and will buy a full electric car today with gas at $4.25 a gallon versus what it cost when they ran the trials...
I back hybrid and electric car technology not b/c of the eco-impact but more b/c I don't enjoy $100 fillups at the gas station.
How many barrels of oil went into building those batteries?
How many more barrels of oil will be burned to deal with the highly toxic waste from the batteries?
How many tons of sulfur dioxide, lead, and mercury will be released from our primarily coal burning electric utilities when our transportation system gets plugged into the wall?
What is the fully amortized cost of the batteries - cradle to grave - compared to direct energy conversion at 37% to 52% (gasoline and diesel efficiencies)?
The answers to these questions are what kill electric cars. They end up polluting more and costing more over their lifespan. You can't just factor the operating cost into this. It is a simple task to responsibly junk an old car. It is far from a simple task to responsibly junk an electric car because you have a very large and very toxic battery that requires specialized skills to disassemble and recycle the metals with a hazardous waste stream from the reagent used in these batteries.
It is far from cheap to responsibly dispose of batteries, and we're only now realizing the dangers of our thoughtless disposal methods of the 20th century from the chemicals leeching out of landfills and into ground water when we just tossed used batteries into the earth without any regard for what was going to happen next.
I really don't buy the whole - "electric cars are better for the planet" argument. Too many holes, too many toxic materials, and too short sighted a view of the ENTIRE cost of these vehicles, especially if deployed on a large scale.
How many more barrels of oil will be burned to deal with the highly toxic waste from the batteries?
How many tons of sulfur dioxide, lead, and mercury will be released from our primarily coal burning electric utilities when our transportation system gets plugged into the wall?
What is the fully amortized cost of the batteries - cradle to grave - compared to direct energy conversion at 37% to 52% (gasoline and diesel efficiencies)?
The answers to these questions are what kill electric cars. They end up polluting more and costing more over their lifespan. You can't just factor the operating cost into this. It is a simple task to responsibly junk an old car. It is far from a simple task to responsibly junk an electric car because you have a very large and very toxic battery that requires specialized skills to disassemble and recycle the metals with a hazardous waste stream from the reagent used in these batteries.
It is far from cheap to responsibly dispose of batteries, and we're only now realizing the dangers of our thoughtless disposal methods of the 20th century from the chemicals leeching out of landfills and into ground water when we just tossed used batteries into the earth without any regard for what was going to happen next.
I really don't buy the whole - "electric cars are better for the planet" argument. Too many holes, too many toxic materials, and too short sighted a view of the ENTIRE cost of these vehicles, especially if deployed on a large scale.
Last edited by werewolf; 04-28-08 at 12:47 PM.
04-28-08, 12:57 PM
#26
There can only be One
04-28-08, 05:07 PM
#27
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I noted this in another thread.
There are some interesting advancements coming from the brains at MIT on new battery technology. One of the issues with Li-ON was the potential to explode under lots of heat. Last I checked cars produce lots of heat.
Electric cars COULD be a good daily driver in the US (MAYBE) but as a long lasting source for mobility? Not so much. At least not yet. The biggest hurdle we have at least in the US is the amount of additional power stations that would need to be built. With Eco freaks getting in a tizzy over a Nuclear plant, its a long way off. Then we have the issue of being able to charge quickly. A rapid charger of some sort for vehicles.
People want to get in and go fast, get what they need and keep moving. If you only get 100-250 miles per charge that would make for a long road trip with a 8 hour wait to charge in between runs.
We are talking a new level of infrastructure that needs to be built everywhere. From the streets of NYC, to the suburb wal-mart. You need a place to "charge'. WE aren't there yet but if we continue pushing for it we will be.
There are some interesting advancements coming from the brains at MIT on new battery technology. One of the issues with Li-ON was the potential to explode under lots of heat. Last I checked cars produce lots of heat.
Electric cars COULD be a good daily driver in the US (MAYBE) but as a long lasting source for mobility? Not so much. At least not yet. The biggest hurdle we have at least in the US is the amount of additional power stations that would need to be built. With Eco freaks getting in a tizzy over a Nuclear plant, its a long way off. Then we have the issue of being able to charge quickly. A rapid charger of some sort for vehicles.
People want to get in and go fast, get what they need and keep moving. If you only get 100-250 miles per charge that would make for a long road trip with a 8 hour wait to charge in between runs.
We are talking a new level of infrastructure that needs to be built everywhere. From the streets of NYC, to the suburb wal-mart. You need a place to "charge'. WE aren't there yet but if we continue pushing for it we will be.
Since EVs take several hours to charge up, the idea of building "charging stations" is a rather useless one in my opinion. No, those who want and will make use of these cars will already have daily access to an AC outlet and drive less than 100 miles per day. That's a large majority of the population.
I personally do a lot of driving on a daily basis, but it's rare I ever go more than 100 miles per day. That's a bit excessive and most of the population do not exceed that. However, those that do and still want to be fuel efficient can simply drive hybrids
There is a demand for EVs.
04-28-08, 05:51 PM
#28
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I was one of the many people that wanted an EV back in 2002/3 I had the letter from Toyota "Due to lack of interest etc. etc." I still want an EV but I settled for a 2004 Prius 48.5 MPG average in the almost 4 years I drove it now I have a 2006 RX400h 26.2 MPG since I got it I require all wheel drive. I still want an EV.
Also notes that solar does not pay off well for me the payoff will be in 6 years the most maybe less. The state paid $26,000 Fed's paid $2000 my bill $17,000 now for each megawatt I generate the utility must pay me $250 not counting drastically reduced electric bills. Yes our utility raises rates at 7% avery June. Not to add surcharges for using more than 600Kw in a month.
If 60% of the nation plugged in to charge when we go to bed at night we will draw no more electric or less than we do during the day.
I have met with http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/ already.
Also notes that solar does not pay off well for me the payoff will be in 6 years the most maybe less. The state paid $26,000 Fed's paid $2000 my bill $17,000 now for each megawatt I generate the utility must pay me $250 not counting drastically reduced electric bills. Yes our utility raises rates at 7% avery June. Not to add surcharges for using more than 600Kw in a month.
If 60% of the nation plugged in to charge when we go to bed at night we will draw no more electric or less than we do during the day.
I have met with http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/ already.
Last edited by herbvdh; 04-28-08 at 05:56 PM.
04-29-08, 12:24 AM
#29
I am just going to end this thread and introduce you guys to the aptera
www.aptera.com
120mile/charge for electric
300mpg for hybrid
Lobuxracer, I think you're looking at things very negatively. Either way, cars will be created, of course it will take energy to make any car, but it is up to us to make the sacrifice if we want to keep purchasing gasoline at $4/gallon and further harming the environment. We are the ones who fuel this crap gas mileage vehicle fad so we must be the ones to make the sacricifices to put a stop to it.
Solar technology is our tomorrow. Even if it costs alot, you will be helping out the "infrastructure" and be electrically independant.
www.aptera.com
120mile/charge for electric
300mpg for hybrid
Lobuxracer, I think you're looking at things very negatively. Either way, cars will be created, of course it will take energy to make any car, but it is up to us to make the sacrifice if we want to keep purchasing gasoline at $4/gallon and further harming the environment. We are the ones who fuel this crap gas mileage vehicle fad so we must be the ones to make the sacricifices to put a stop to it.
Solar technology is our tomorrow. Even if it costs alot, you will be helping out the "infrastructure" and be electrically independant.
04-29-08, 01:07 AM
#30
There is an Electric car available today! Its expensive as hell but IMO its worth its price in benefits - it use Li-Ion Battery and is recycle friendly. Car gets 220 miles per charge and is a fast little sucker..I'm surprise you guys haven't read about the Tesla.. its been all over the news in the past year and that we've talked about it before here on CL..
Now Enjoy!!http://www.teslamotors.com/
Now Enjoy!!http://www.teslamotors.com/