Honda themselves posted that the #1 car the TL is cross shopped with is their own Accord.
Acura has the lowest public perception/image of any brand, this was also revealed to us this year.
Their quality is barely above the average mark in recent studies.
Acura clearly competes in this segment but is 2 or 3 steps behind. Hyundai has features Acura does not, so does Kia. Infiniti has blown past them.

The TL is not the best sellnig luxury car in America. The 3 series has been for sometime. The TL and ES battle for the best selling sedan and the last TL had that title 2 or 3 years, it was a fantastic car.

We all have cases where cars are crosshopped and car share our experience but that does not mean reality, just our reality. We have stories of Bentelys being traded in for the LS but that is surely not the norm. Sorry but you can write a 50 page paper and it doesn't change that Acura is an afterthought and mainly for Honda owners to move up to.

 

Me either. The biggest hurdle to being a sales success that any new model being introduced right now faces, is the economy.

The number of buyers ready to lay down $$$'s on a new car will be smaller than in the past.

 

Just because someone at Honda said the TL #1 cross shopped car is the Honda Accord does not mean the Lexus IS, GS, and ES and other lux models are also not cross shopped. You think the ES is not heavily cross shopped with the Camry and Avalon or the Maxima is not cross shoped with the Infinit G35, etc.

You keep saying Acura has the lowest public perception/image like it is fact based on just 1 consumer reports study, that is far from fact and is just 1 random study from a couple thousand people, it means nothing. Consumer reports is not the end all be all of automobiles. Consumer reports also highly recommends every Acura model while they don't recommend and give the Lexus GSawd the dreaded not recommended as well as saying the Lexus ES has quality/reliability issues as well as Camry and other Toyota models. Does that mean Toyotas/Lexus are now unreliable and poorly built just because Consumer reports says some have problems and issues? No, because it is just 1 source.

If Acura had such low public perception/image how come so many people spend $30K+ on them and why do most Acura models continue to sell extremely well as well as get reviewed extremely well. So all the people who are buying don't know what they are or have a low perception of them? With all the competition Acura is still doing very well and I don't see any kind of perception problem, maybe to badge/image only buyers who only buy BMW and Mercedes may see a problem but Acura is not going for people who just overpay for a badge and focus more on the car, Lexus and Infiniti do the same thing. Do you honestly think if Lexus were as poorly built, unreliable, and overpriced as it German competition that they would sell anywhere near as well just based on image or because the cars are so great. The majority of Lexus sales are from the Camry based ES and RX which are priced well below the competition and not in direct competition from expensive European models. Any way you cut it, people purchase Lexus much the same as they buy Acuras based on high reliability, quality, dealer service, and prices lower then the Euro competition and there is nothing wrong with that. Take away the reliability, quality dealer service, and lower prices like its Euro competition and Lexus would sell poorly because people are not going to buy just on badge or the cars if unreliable and poorly built are so fantastic.

All vehicles have features others do not, that does not mean anything. Lexus has Mark Lev and 8 speeds autos-no company has that, Acura has SHAWD and the best NAV systems on the market with the most features-no company has that, Porsche has flat six rear engined vehicles- no company has that, you can name a bunch of things car companies have that others don't, does not mean they are better or falling behind. Acura is not an afterthought, if they were they would sell poorly,have poor resale value, and be reviewed poorly. Acuras sell well and are generally very well reviewed and received and just because you highly dislike Acura and may never buy one for certain reasons does not mean everyone feels the same, based on sales numbers and reviews they clearly don't and Lexus and Acura are certainly cross shopped and most models are compared with each other.

 

Well, TSX made from ACURA sold below 3000 in Aug. Ohhh, TSX had no incentives/rebate/dealer hold back blah blah blah blah.... Yeah they compete very well with 3/C/IS/G which all sold more than 5000 last month.

 

Do you notice that 3/c/is/g all have more than 1 model to choose from? You can only get either auto or manual in the tsx. But for 3/is/c/g, you have more choices to choose from and that's why the tsx sales is lower than those.

 

Really? That is the choice ACURA made. Consumer will buy what they want. If you can't offer what consumer want, then that is Acura loss. For example, 50% of IS sale is more than 3000 and I don't believe lexus sold 3000+ IS350.

 

Yes, you're right. We will certainly see indeed what the sales are for the new TL. As of now though, a lot of things are against it. Looking at TSX sales, they've already been dropping while other cars in the class continue to see increased or stable sales. TSX sales already dropping is a bad sign for the new TL. The noticeable price increase for the TL also isn't going to help things.

The price of a loaded TL now virtually overlaps with the base price of a GS. Yes, a loaded GS will still be a few grand more, but at that point a lot of people will seriously consider the Lexus as they will get more HP, RWD, and of course people will consider the reputation, prestige and dealership experience of Lexus.

Base price for a new TL is now actually higher than an ES, and thousands higher than base price of an IS. Base price of the TL is actually very close to the base price of an IS350. Size differences aside, a lot of people would start to consider an IS over a TL at that point. Also as mentioned by carguy101, the TL pricing totally overlaps with the G37 pricing, and the G37 looks like the more enticing offer for the price compared to the TL.

Acura cannot even claim they are about value anymore, as the pricing for the TL is now the same, or more than it's competition.

Exactly. That is Acura's choice by offering only ONE TSX model with limited options. It's a stubborn and ignorant choice by Honda executives to do that. Honda is now facing the consequences of offering such limited choice.

 

Yes, well that's great. Acura doesn't just compete with Lexus - they compete with a trio of Germans who offer similarly priced cars. Why are you attacking Acura for offering a car with a multitude of standard features at it's $34,000 base price. Should they have had a dizzying amount of option packages like the others to lower the base price? Whatever you say, the TL is STILL a good value compared to the A4/C-Class/3-Series as far as content and features for the money go and it always has been. This coming from somebody who thinks this new TL is atrocious looking.

There is a turbo variant coming and also a clean diesel. Yes, stubborness

Man, I thought I was hard on Acura. Some of these posts are so bias driven it's crazy! Sheeeze.

 

Before you accuse others of bias, know what you are talking about. No turbo TSX is coming, Acura stated themselves the engine will not fit b/c the intercooler is placed on top the engine. The diesel should come though.

The TL is just too damn big to be IS/3/A4/C competition, it already was tons bigger with the last gen. Its in its own niche pretty much, more battling the Lincoln MKS when you look at similarities.

I do have to say a loaded ES 350 is 45k and a loaded TL with AWD is 45k so it seems loaded, its the more interesting car. I know the TL is sportier than the ES but they always seem more similar to me than the IS.

 

There is no need to be rude my friend, I am just stating what I have read.

I personally think the ES350 is a geriatric boat (relative to the competition at least). Yes a fully loaded TL will approach $44K, but that isn't exactly out of range to it's competitors. The Germans top over $50K when you fully option those cars out. The TL is in fact cross shopped between the C/3/A4 (at least in the last two generations). With the new TSX and the TL moving a bit more upmarket we'll see what happens, but I'd venture Acura will use two cars to compete against the 3/C/A4 (which all start at TSX price levels and sky rocket north of the TL when optioned up).

 

The Germans also offer much more prestige, reputation, and unique selling points that Acura does not have. Notice I mentioned Infiniti and not just Lexus.

My point was the TL and Acura used to be about value compared to ALL competition. Compared to the A4/C/3, the TL still offers a lot of value yes, but compared to the ES, IS, and G37 the TL no longer offers great value.

Let's not forget about Hyundai, as the Genesis competes directly with the TL.

Stick with the facts please. There is NO confirmation from Acura a turbo variant is coming. Acura has only confirmed the diesel variant.

 

Sorry if I came off harsh. No matter what the 500 pro-TL guys think, HONDA STATED the TL is most crosshopped with their own Accord. The cars layout and size is more ES competition, even if its sportier. The ES and TL both come off similar platforms, the Camry/Accord. Both offer good power and hare large for their price range.

Do some people cross shop between the IS/3/A4/C? Yes but the minority of shoppers. With the TL now BIGGER than an ES and as LARGE as their own flagship, the Accord, it simply is too big to be the Euro class competition.

I have no idea where they are positioning this car. I guess its now supposed to somehow be GS/5/E competition but priced like the lower class.

 

I can also imagine the ES being most cross-shopped with the Avalon/Camry. I don't know what else it'll be cross-shopped with.

Like the TL, the ES is kind of in its own niche.

 

Intially it was the 3/C/Millenia, Diamante when the ES 300 came around. Lexus still positioned it as an 3/C/A4 competitor with the 3ES (97-01). No one bit, the car clearly was a big cruiser, the ES was always big.

Lexus then put their ***** on the table to go toe to toe with the Germans with SPORT sedans, and brought us the IS 300 which was pretty much a Japanese 3, they shrunk the 2GS to 5/E proprotions and gave it a V-8 and moved the ES 330 to basically a baby LS niche. Lexus is the only competitor with 2 distinct cars in the same price range (Well I guess the 1/3 kinda mimics this now). Acura tries their best to blend between the 2 and does a pretty decent job of it all things considered.

To me, the ES and now TL have their own market and people buy them b/c they want them. Then you have people who cross shop.

So yes, I agree totally, the ES like the TL has a niche market here.

There are almost 2 markets growing in this segment

Traditional small Euro size
1/3/A4 (which has grown) IS/C/9-3
Large American market size
ES/TL/Buick cars/Lincoln MKZ/G35/CTS (while big, both of these are more aimed at the small Euro size class)/Genesis/G8

All in some shape or form are cross shopped. Its AMAZING how this segment has grown. Its quite confusing even to me.

 

IMO, the G35/37 is the only one in that list that offers the best of both worlds. Handles like a small Euro sedan, but has room (almost) of a ES/TL type of car. And now with class leading efficiency to boot!