knihc2008

iTrader: (1)

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/25/s...s-coupe-wagon/

Already a new coupe and wagon coming from Cadillac after only a year in production.

While, back at Lexus...

TRDFantasy

And when exactly are the CTS coupe and wagon coming to market? It's not for a while.

Anyone who's a regular on CL would have known for a long time that an IS Coupe was coming. The reason it's been taking Lexus a long time is because the Coupe will also come with a hardtop convertible. There has been nothing from Cadillac regarding a CTS convertible.

knihc2008

iTrader: (1)

From what I've heard, end of this year for the CTS coupe and wagons.

Bear in mind the CTS has been in the market a lot less than the IS has.

Also bear in mind that BMW put out both coupe and convertible (and wagon) versions in the same time frame that the IS has been out.

Lexus, pick up your game.

TRDFantasy

End of the year for both the CTS coupe and wagon? I'll believe it when I see it. Also, as I said GM has made no indication that there will be a hardtop CTS Coupe. If Lexus had no plans for a hardtop convertible, then the IS Coupe would have likely been out already.

The E90 3 Series came out 6 months before the 2IS.

Lexus may have delayed the IS Coupe/convertible to ensure quality. We do know that Toyota stated all future models would be delayed to varying degrees in order to ensure quality.

Lexus has upped it's game. Just because Toyota doesn't boast about future releases like GM or other competitors does not mean Toyota is somehow behind the competition. Toyota prefers to quietly go about it's business and typically surprises the industry and the competition with new releases, as opposed to boasting about new releases months or years ahead of time.

We don't know exactly what updates the IS Coupe/convertible will bring. The coupe/convertible models are supposed to debut around the same time as the IS MMC, which is rumoured to bring an updated interior as well as possibly updated powertrain offerings.

knihc2008

iTrader: (1)

Why not release an IS Coupe now and then a convertible later on, like BMW? It's not like the Lexus brand doesn't need a nice sporty coupe in their lineup.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-cts-coupe.html production on the coupe starts May 2009, which is admittedly not end of this year. Still, not bad given by then the CTS will be about a year old. The E90 may have come out 6 mo before the IS it's already been over a year since the 3er coupe came out. Lexus is more than half a year late on the IS convertible by BMW standards, and a whole year late on the IS coupe by BMW and Cadillac standards, and that's based on the the IS coupe/vert coming out NOW... which they aren't.

Oh you mean like the LF-A?
Toyota and Lexus are quietly resting on their laurels; I've said this time and time again but there are NO exciting cars in their lineup, and every concept or idea they might be coming up with is quickly squashed by their ridiculously long lead times. The reason why Toyota has no new releases to boast about is because cars like the Venza are not particularly worth... boasting about. If BMW and Cadillac can come up with a sporty coupe with completely different body work and make it profitable and good, why can't Toyota, the world's largest automanufacturer?

Cadillac is not resting; they are giving the public what they want. They're giving the public an exciting coupe version of the CTS. They're giving (probably intended more for Europe) a useful wagon version of the CTS with what appears to be a sizeable boot, unlike the IS300 sportback. And they're doing it post haste, to keep momentum, excitement, and interest in their brand and their product.

TRDFantasy

If you think Toyota is "resting on their laurels" simply because RIGHT NOW they don't have many sporty offerings, give me a break. We have the IS-F, IS Coupe right around the corner, we KNOW the LF-A is coming, Toyota has *confirmed* a low-priced RWD sports car being developed together with Subaru, *and* rumours are very strong of a production FT-HS coming to market. Not to mention, there are rumours of a GS-F.

Why not release the IS Coupe now? As I said earlier, it's most likely to ensure quality.

For the past few years Toyota was coming out with new products at a tremendous pace. That hasty pace and growth quickly caught up to Toyota in the form of quality problems. Toyota has learned it's lesson and purposely slowed down it's growth and pace of new products in order to ensure quality.

Toyota likely could have come out with the IS Coupe/vert right NOW, but chances are there that would result in quite a few quality problems. Toyota is in no rush specifically to ensure quality.

I don't know about you, but I would MUCH rather Toyota take its time on new products and ensure quality rather than go back to releasing new products at a post haste speed only to please a few internet enthusiasts at the cost of damaging it's reputation.

If the CTS Coupe comes out in May 2009, then the CTS will have been out for almost 2 years, not 1. You seem to be implying that the CTS coupe and wagon variants are coming only 1 year after the debut of the new CTS, which is incorrect. The coupe and wagon variants would have to be out this Fall in order for that to be true.

As for the LF-A, read my previous comments. I would much rather prefer Toyota takes its time and ensures quality, performance, and everything else on the LF-A before releasing it. It's Toyota's first time making an exotic supercar, and it needs to be a home run in order to be taken seriously. LF-A development is taking a long time, but it's good to know Toyota isn't just wasting time. Entering the LF-A into the Nurburgring 24 hours race will give a tremendous amount of information for development and will also prove the reliability of the production mechanical parts. The LF-A development it looks like will take roughly as long as the 1st gen LS; about 6 years. When Toyota spends that much development time on one vehicle, it's usually something special. The 1st gen LS was a game-changer, and it looks like the LF-A could be as well.

knihc2008

iTrader: (1)

You're right, the CTS coupe and wagon will be out closer to two years than one year after the CTS sedan. Still, the IS coupe and convertible won't be out for at least THREE years after the sedan. Sure, they might be taking a long time to make an IS coupe and covertible to ensure quality but, like I said, if it takes BMW only a YEAR to come out with a new variant at a high quality, and Cadillac TWO (and Infiniti, one year), it seems absurd for Lexus to need three or more just to plug up the rear two doors. The fact is that Lexus is LAGGING behind the competition. I don't care if Lexus is lagging to make their quality better because the competition can make high quality cars faster. Is Lexus really that bad at making cars that it needs 1-2 extra years for the quality of their cars to be on par? If the car comes out at the model's MMR, then, what, it'll stick around three years after the sedan IS is replaced? No one wants a coupe variant of an old car. It really isn't that hard to lop off two doors and turn it into a coupe.

And I totally respect your statements about the LF-A. I agree, the car is going to be a game changer and a lot of lead time is required for a car that needs to be super car fast and as reliable as a Lexus. Still, you said that Toyota likes to quietly go about their business and not tease/boast about new releases, and clearly in the case of the LF-A that just simply isn't the case.

TRDFantasy

For the MOST part, yes Toyota DOES quietly go about its business, regardless of the LF-A.

As I mentioned, ensuring quality is one possible reason for the IS Coupe/vert taking so long. There could be other reasons, fact is we don't know. We don't know what the Coupe/vert will bring. Maybe Toyota hasn't released the coupe/vert yet because it wanted the rumoured updated IS interior to go inside. Fact is, nobody outside of Toyota knows the real reason why the coupe/vert variants have taken this long. Arguing about, and criticizing Toyota based on assumptions and speculation is just plain silly. Another rumour suggested that the coupe/vert variants were taking long because Toyota was having a bit of trouble hitting the intended price points for the variants while maintaining Lexus quality. Not BMW or Cadillac quality, but Lexus quality.

You're incorrect about Cadillac and BMW. Their quality does NOT equal or match Lexus.

If GM is rushing the coupe and wagon CTS variants to market, I feel sorry for the owners who will buy them as they will likely have quality problems. BMW may have started work on the E90 coupe/vert variants earlier than Toyota, or Toyota's plan all along may have been to release the coupe/vert variants with the IS MMC. Fact is we don't know.

You have not provided anything substantive to back up your statement that "Lexus is lagging". Once again, how is it lagging? Because RIGHT NOW it doesn't have that many sporty offerings? As I said, give me a break. In a few years time, Toyota will have more sporty offerings than GM given all the sporty vehicles under development right now by Toyota.

If Lexus is "lagging" compared to BMW and Cadillac, the opposite is also true. BMW and Cadillac are lagging when it comes to quality, dealer service, as well as offering luxury hybrids. When the LF-A comes out, they will also be lagging behind Lexus by not having a luxury exotic supercar.

Seeing as you haven't provided anything substantive to back up that "Lexus is lagging" and have used mostly speculation and assumptions, one can easily argue the opposite that Lexus is NOT lagging by also merely using assumptions and speculation. The difference is that there are plenty of facts to show Lexus is NOT lagging.

knihc2008

iTrader: (1)

My substantive proof as to how Lexus is lagging behind the competition in making variants of the IS sedan is the simple fact that Lexus has none, while their competition has coupes, wagons, etc coming out or already out. Plain and simple. How can you ignore that?

You seem to be missing my point. I'm not talking about the need for more sports cars faster. Lexus needs to keep interest and excitement in their brand. They can't do that if they insist on taking this long on new models. The interest in an IS coupe will die down three years after the IS sedan, and sales will drop PRECIPITOUSLY after that new IS comes out and the coupe has to fend for itself with an old body style for three more years after that. This is the LAG I'm talking about. BMW, Infiniti, Cadillac... their variants are coming out right after the base car. New sedan, new coupe, new wagon. No lag time, keeping interest and new models in the show room.

Anyway, BACK TO THE CTS WAGON
http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/201...py2/1001283988
Check out that ridiculously thick D-pillar... good for style, not so much for blind spots?

UberNoob

at least Lexus is making IS250C/IS300C/IS350C

is the new CTS-V out yet?

maybe lexus math gurus have calculated the proper economy of scale for maximum profit so they decided to keep it simple?

TRDFantasy

Once again, you are flat out wrong. Does Cadillac have a CTS coupe out right now? No it DOES NOT. The CTS coupe is coming, JUST LIKE the IS Coupe is coming. What's so hard to understand here? How can Lexus be lagging behind Cadillac when the CTS coupe is not out yet? Besides, the IS Coupe will very likely come to market BEFORE the CTS coupe. So who's lagging?

Your statements about people losing interest in the IS are nothing but assumptions; the facts are against you. So far, IS sales remain very solid, despite the IS being on the market for a while now, facing tough competition and despite the current economic conditions. Have you also forgotten the IS-F? The IS-F has renewed a lot of interest in the IS line for Lexus, and it will be enough to keep people interested until the IS MMC and the IS coupe/vert variants come.

Also, how can you be sure that the IS won't have a different timeline for the next-gen model? What if the next-gen IS line has the F/coupe/vert variants coming out closer together with the regular models? Fact is we don't know.

Next year, Lexus has a new hybrid model, the next-gen RX, and possibly more models as well.

Once again, I don't see how Lexus isn't keeping interest up. Lexus is updating it's models faster than it ever has before, while still ensuring quality.

And that D-pillar certainly is ridiculous. Styling is subjective, and I think that will be an ugly D-pillar from the outside. It will definitely be bad for blind spots.

knihc2008

iTrader: (1)

lol, wow, calm down...

You accuse me for making assumptions... how do you know when the IS coupe is coming out? Way to assume the IS coupe will come out first. Fact is, we already have a concept, spy photos, and confirmation about the CTS coupe. I am basing my argument off of what I KNOW. Do we have any of those for the IS coupe? Then how do you know it will come out first? By the way, your argument that Lexus delayed the IS for quality? ASSUMPTION.

And I'm basing the length of the IS coupe based on the length of every single other Lexus out ever, about 6 years. But yeah, I understand how that's not enough reasoning for you.

This topic has gotten way off course, mods can lock it if you want. This argument is going nowhere.

TRDFantasy

Lexus has trademarked the several names related to the IS Coupe, and we have seen spyshots of it. We also had the LF-C concept a few years ago which hinted at an IS coupe. Is that not enough?

knihc2008

iTrader: (1)

True but still doesn't prove that the IS is coming out before the CTS coupe. We've been sitting on a Lexus-trademarked JX nameplate for almost three years now, if I remember correctly. Still, I'm hoping the IS coupe is for real and looks fantastic, and is soon.

Rendering, looks pretty good imo, probably one of the better looking wagons on the market. A4 Avant still gets my vote though.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/wp-conte...15&idg=2&idi=1

LexFather

Well that depends.
Lexus has a convertible coupe, Acura/Infiniti dont.
Lexus has hybrids, 3 of them. No other luxury brand does until Caddy this year.
Lexus has the IS-F, Acura/Infiniti don't.

So while Lexus has no IS coupe, they do offer some things the competition does not.

Lexus tried the wagon bit, the IS Sportcross, and it sold like crap. The RX is basically a tall wagon. I don't see an IS or ES wagon selling well here or in Europe, just not a huge market, especially when the RX does so well