View Poll Results: Should Lexus start offering 4 cylinder engines in their lineup?
Voters: 131. You may not vote on this poll
Should Lexus start offering 4 cylinders?
05-05-08 | 08:50 PM
#76
Consider something else. Compared to 10-15 years ago, engines have grown tremendously, that includes four, six and eight cylinders. I'm not trying to make a comparison between 60's domestic carbeurated crap, or garbage that GM, Ford and Chrysler were producing in the 90ies. I'm talking about respectable Japanese and European brands.
For example:
90ies Civic = 1.5 and 1.6 inline 4, now replaced with 2.0 inline 4.
Early 90ies Camry V6 = 2.5L. Today its 3.5L. The current 4 cylinder Camry is virtually the same displacement as the old V6.
Acura Legend started out with a 2.5 or 2.7 V6. Now its up to 3.7 liters in the upcoming refresh.
Nissan is producing a 3.7 V6 as well, which is now only in g37c, but will find its way into more cars soon.
MB's mainstream V8 is now 5.5.. their V12 used to be of that displacement. In fact, the 5.5 V8 is the smallest V8 MB has in production.
Basically all engines have grown in size. The current standard for a mainstream V6 is 3.5-3.7 liter, which is damn near the 4.0 standard for a V8 of a decade ago.
Now notice something else - most of these engine make more HP than torque. Thats because of their bore to stroke ratio, they are making engines with wider bore, which allows to add displacement without having to decrease redline, and sustain torque at high RPMs which in turn allows to produce more horse power. It is nice and all, but it makes for peaky engines. If these engine were to be designed to produce more torque, they would have to have longer store and smaller bore, resulting in rougher running, lower revving engine, similar to crappy GM's retired 3.8 V8. Now, instead of compromising like this, why not just add cylinders and make smoother, more balanced out V8 with more proportiona bore/stroke ratio, that produces more HP and torque, without reducing the fuel economy. I am personally fond of ~.5liter per cylinder theory (I believe BMW likes this ratio as well). So, in my view, the optimal displacement for a 6 cylinder is 3.0L, and no smaller than 2.5L and no larger than 3.5L. Look at 4.0 V8 1UZ, it has .5L per cylinder, and its the smoothest engine of its time bar none... still one of the smoother engines out there. Look at 3.0 i6 2JZ, it also has .5L per cylinder, and its probably still the worlds smoothest 6 cylinder. Also note that both 1UZ and 2JZ have almost identical HP/TQ ratios.
Now as far as 4 cylinders, they are already not smooth by default. In order to produce a 4 cylinder acceptable for a heavy luxury car, it would have to produce decent torque, and the only way to achieve that is to increase its displacement and design it with longer stroke. Which, like I already said, will decrease its red line and make it even less smooth. Or, you can go the turbo diesel route, which is even worse. So, anyway you look at it, a 4 cylinder just doesnt belong in a Luxury car. For isntance, I recently drove my friends Saab 9-5 with 2.x turbo four, and the way that engine starts, sounds, and runs reminded me of my old 1995 Honda Civic. Let me make it clear, when a so called Luxury car reminds you of a 1995 Honda Civic IT IS NOT A GOOD THING, PERIOD!
With all of that being said, I think Lexus should use make more small V6 engines availabe across the entire line up. For instance they could make GS250, and heck, maybe even add a hybrid option to the 2.5 and make IS/GS300h. And heck, even make LS350/450h and SC350/450h, instead of them having only V8 option. But please, no 4 bangers, leave them for Toyota.
For example:
90ies Civic = 1.5 and 1.6 inline 4, now replaced with 2.0 inline 4.
Early 90ies Camry V6 = 2.5L. Today its 3.5L. The current 4 cylinder Camry is virtually the same displacement as the old V6.
Acura Legend started out with a 2.5 or 2.7 V6. Now its up to 3.7 liters in the upcoming refresh.
Nissan is producing a 3.7 V6 as well, which is now only in g37c, but will find its way into more cars soon.
MB's mainstream V8 is now 5.5.. their V12 used to be of that displacement. In fact, the 5.5 V8 is the smallest V8 MB has in production.
Basically all engines have grown in size. The current standard for a mainstream V6 is 3.5-3.7 liter, which is damn near the 4.0 standard for a V8 of a decade ago.
Now notice something else - most of these engine make more HP than torque. Thats because of their bore to stroke ratio, they are making engines with wider bore, which allows to add displacement without having to decrease redline, and sustain torque at high RPMs which in turn allows to produce more horse power. It is nice and all, but it makes for peaky engines. If these engine were to be designed to produce more torque, they would have to have longer store and smaller bore, resulting in rougher running, lower revving engine, similar to crappy GM's retired 3.8 V8. Now, instead of compromising like this, why not just add cylinders and make smoother, more balanced out V8 with more proportiona bore/stroke ratio, that produces more HP and torque, without reducing the fuel economy. I am personally fond of ~.5liter per cylinder theory (I believe BMW likes this ratio as well). So, in my view, the optimal displacement for a 6 cylinder is 3.0L, and no smaller than 2.5L and no larger than 3.5L. Look at 4.0 V8 1UZ, it has .5L per cylinder, and its the smoothest engine of its time bar none... still one of the smoother engines out there. Look at 3.0 i6 2JZ, it also has .5L per cylinder, and its probably still the worlds smoothest 6 cylinder. Also note that both 1UZ and 2JZ have almost identical HP/TQ ratios.
Now as far as 4 cylinders, they are already not smooth by default. In order to produce a 4 cylinder acceptable for a heavy luxury car, it would have to produce decent torque, and the only way to achieve that is to increase its displacement and design it with longer stroke. Which, like I already said, will decrease its red line and make it even less smooth. Or, you can go the turbo diesel route, which is even worse. So, anyway you look at it, a 4 cylinder just doesnt belong in a Luxury car. For isntance, I recently drove my friends Saab 9-5 with 2.x turbo four, and the way that engine starts, sounds, and runs reminded me of my old 1995 Honda Civic. Let me make it clear, when a so called Luxury car reminds you of a 1995 Honda Civic IT IS NOT A GOOD THING, PERIOD!
With all of that being said, I think Lexus should use make more small V6 engines availabe across the entire line up. For instance they could make GS250, and heck, maybe even add a hybrid option to the 2.5 and make IS/GS300h. And heck, even make LS350/450h and SC350/450h, instead of them having only V8 option. But please, no 4 bangers, leave them for Toyota.
Last edited by Och; 05-06-08 at 02:44 AM.
05-05-08 | 08:54 PM
#77
Oh yeah, another thing to consider. If Lexus were to start offering four cylinders, what should they focus on, better fuel economy or bringing the cost of the car down? Because if its for fuel economy, then they wont be able to do much better than a small V6 anyway, and if its to bring down the cost, then it will indeed cheapen the brand.
05-05-08 | 10:45 PM
#78
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 6
From: NT
Consider something else. Compared to 10-15 years ago, engines have grown tremendously, that includes four, six and eight cylinders. I'm not trying to make a comparison between 60's domestic carbeurated crap, or garbage that GM, Ford and Chrysler were producing in the 90ies. I'm talking about respectable Japanese and European brands.
For example:
90ies Civic = 1.5 and 1.6 inline 6, now replaced with 2.0 inline six.
(inline 6 in a civic?) no foolin'?
Early 90ies Camry V6 = 2.5L. Today its 3.5L. The current 4 cylinder Camry is virtually the same displacement as the old V6.
Acura Legend started out with a 2.5 or 2.7 V6. Now its up to 3.7 liters in the upcoming refresh.
Nissan is producing a 3.7 V6 as well, which is now only in g37c, but will find its way into more cars soon.
MB's mainstream V8 is now 5.5.. their V12 used to be of that displacement. In fact, the 5.5 V8 is the smallest V8 MB has in production.
Basically all engines have grown in size. The current standard for a mainstream V6 is 3.5-3.7 liter, which is damn near the 4.0 standard for a V8 of a decade ago.
Now notice something else - most of these engine make more HP than torque. Thats because of their bore to stroke ratio, they are making engines with wider bore, which allows to add displacement without having to decrease redline, and sustain torque at high RPMs which in turn allows to produce more horse power. It is nice and all, but it makes for peaky engines. If these engine were to be designed to produce more torque, they would have to have longer store and smaller bore, resulting in rougher running, lower revving engine, similar to crappy GM's retired 3.8 V8
(it was a V6.....) And in reality, not a bad V6 at all, especially supercharged.
Now, instead of compromising like this, why not just add cylinders and make smoother, more balanced out V8 with more proportionate bore/stroke ratio, that produces more HP and torque, without reducing the fuel economy. I am personally fond of ~.5liter per cylinder theory (I believe BMW likes this ratio as well). So, in my view, the optimal displacement for a 6 cylinder is 3.0L, and no smaller than 2.5L and no larger than 3.5L. Look at 4.0 V8 1UZ, it has .5L per cylinder, and its the smoothest engine of its time bar none... still one of the smoother engines out there. Look at 3.0 i6 2JZ, it also has .5L per cylinder, and its probably still the worlds smoothest 6 cylinder. Also note that both 1UZ and 2JZ have almost identical HP/TQ ratios.
(They did after the 1uz got VVT-i )
Now as far as 4 cylinders, they are already not smooth by default. In order to produce a 4 cylinder acceptable for a heavy luxury car, it would have to produce decent torque, and the only way to achieve that is to increase its displacement and design it with longer stroke. Which, like I already said, will decrease its red line and make it even less smooth. Or, you can go the turbo diesel route, which is even worse. So, anyway you look at it, a 4 cylinder just doesn't belong in a Luxury car. For instance, I recently drove my friends Saab 9-5 with 2.x turbo four, and the way that engine starts, sounds, and runs reminded me of my old 1995 Honda Civic. Let me make it clear, when a so called Luxury car reminds you of a 1995 Honda Civic IT IS NOT A GOOD THING, PERIOD!
With all of that being said, I think Lexus should use make more small V6 engines available across the entire line up. For instance they could make GS250, and heck, maybe even add a hybrid option to the 2.5 and make IS/GS300h. And heck, even make LS350/450h and SC350/450h, instead of them having only V8 option. But please, no 4 bangers, leave them for Toyota.
For example:
90ies Civic = 1.5 and 1.6 inline 6, now replaced with 2.0 inline six.
(inline 6 in a civic?) no foolin'?
Early 90ies Camry V6 = 2.5L. Today its 3.5L. The current 4 cylinder Camry is virtually the same displacement as the old V6.
Acura Legend started out with a 2.5 or 2.7 V6. Now its up to 3.7 liters in the upcoming refresh.
Nissan is producing a 3.7 V6 as well, which is now only in g37c, but will find its way into more cars soon.
MB's mainstream V8 is now 5.5.. their V12 used to be of that displacement. In fact, the 5.5 V8 is the smallest V8 MB has in production.
Basically all engines have grown in size. The current standard for a mainstream V6 is 3.5-3.7 liter, which is damn near the 4.0 standard for a V8 of a decade ago.
Now notice something else - most of these engine make more HP than torque. Thats because of their bore to stroke ratio, they are making engines with wider bore, which allows to add displacement without having to decrease redline, and sustain torque at high RPMs which in turn allows to produce more horse power. It is nice and all, but it makes for peaky engines. If these engine were to be designed to produce more torque, they would have to have longer store and smaller bore, resulting in rougher running, lower revving engine, similar to crappy GM's retired 3.8 V8
(it was a V6.....) And in reality, not a bad V6 at all, especially supercharged.
Now, instead of compromising like this, why not just add cylinders and make smoother, more balanced out V8 with more proportionate bore/stroke ratio, that produces more HP and torque, without reducing the fuel economy. I am personally fond of ~.5liter per cylinder theory (I believe BMW likes this ratio as well). So, in my view, the optimal displacement for a 6 cylinder is 3.0L, and no smaller than 2.5L and no larger than 3.5L. Look at 4.0 V8 1UZ, it has .5L per cylinder, and its the smoothest engine of its time bar none... still one of the smoother engines out there. Look at 3.0 i6 2JZ, it also has .5L per cylinder, and its probably still the worlds smoothest 6 cylinder. Also note that both 1UZ and 2JZ have almost identical HP/TQ ratios.
(They did after the 1uz got VVT-i )
Now as far as 4 cylinders, they are already not smooth by default. In order to produce a 4 cylinder acceptable for a heavy luxury car, it would have to produce decent torque, and the only way to achieve that is to increase its displacement and design it with longer stroke. Which, like I already said, will decrease its red line and make it even less smooth. Or, you can go the turbo diesel route, which is even worse. So, anyway you look at it, a 4 cylinder just doesn't belong in a Luxury car. For instance, I recently drove my friends Saab 9-5 with 2.x turbo four, and the way that engine starts, sounds, and runs reminded me of my old 1995 Honda Civic. Let me make it clear, when a so called Luxury car reminds you of a 1995 Honda Civic IT IS NOT A GOOD THING, PERIOD!
With all of that being said, I think Lexus should use make more small V6 engines available across the entire line up. For instance they could make GS250, and heck, maybe even add a hybrid option to the 2.5 and make IS/GS300h. And heck, even make LS350/450h and SC350/450h, instead of them having only V8 option. But please, no 4 bangers, leave them for Toyota.
05-05-08 | 11:22 PM
#79
Driver
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
From: Texas
actually Lexus has a 4 banger scheduled to enter the marketplace around 2009, the LF-Ch
05-06-08 | 04:20 AM
#83
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 11,205
Likes: 11
From: The Woodlands, TX
my audi tt with a 2.0 liter 4 + turbocharger goes just fine thank you.....and about 35mpg in mixed driving is great!
Even in the A4 this powerplant is more than sufficient.
you guys really need to drop this big engine american mentality....you want $10/gallon gas?.....even if you CAN afford it, you're killing america
05-06-08 | 04:38 AM
#84
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,518
Likes: 0
From: MD
Maybe it will never change. This is why I laugh so hard when I here the stories of arogant guys who think that they can destroy a Legacy GT because they have more cylinders, not realizing that this thing called a turbo does a lot for a four cylinder.
05-06-08 | 05:07 AM
#85
Pole Position
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,882
Likes: 1
From: Coral Springs, Fl
You do indeed bring up some good points but I have to disagree with this:
Just as powerful? yes. As quick? Yes. But, no 4 cylinder can ever be made to feel as smooth and quiet as a 6 or an 8. That throttle response torque cannot be replaced with a 4.
Just as powerful? yes. As quick? Yes. But, no 4 cylinder can ever be made to feel as smooth and quiet as a 6 or an 8. That throttle response torque cannot be replaced with a 4.
05-06-08 | 05:52 AM
#86
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 11,205
Likes: 11
From: The Woodlands, TX
how about 50? 60? 70?
05-06-08 | 06:11 AM
#87
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,518
Likes: 0
From: MD
To the issue of smoothness, I don't find the BMW 3.0L all that smooth. Yet, people continue to buy it without complaint. If anything, the 2.7L T we had in our A6 was more of a refined, pleasant engine.
05-06-08 | 06:13 AM
#88
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,607
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
No, not just FWD. Many AWD vehicles have transverse-mount engines as well, but it involves more complexity with extra hardware and gears.
05-06-08 | 06:57 AM
#90
Acura, Audi, Saab have potent smooth 4 bangers in their line up.
Perhaps Lexus should seek help from Lotus to develop an Elise based sportscar. This car can be added to the Lexus "F" line up...Heck, the Elise has the old Celica's 4 banger.. Build it!
Perhaps Lexus should seek help from Lotus to develop an Elise based sportscar. This car can be added to the Lexus "F" line up...Heck, the Elise has the old Celica's 4 banger.. Build it!