Ethanol is a bad idea right now, but the technology will improve. Anyway, the idea of using ethanol is good, we need more alternative energy.

 

I agree we need alternative energy sources. I am not convinced that we need to use food for that source. The use of corn ethanol is not sustainable.

I am stunned that we are not using the huge untapped oil reserves from within our own borders. The US has the largest known deposits of oil shale in the world, according to the Bureau of Land Management. It's estimated at 2,500 gigabarrels of potentially recoverable oil, enough to meet U.S. demand for oil for 110 years. And Massive Bakken oil formation in N. Dakota Could Increase US reserves by 10x.
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/...news2.13s.html

I am also stunned that we have not found numerous ways to become more energy efficient. I'm surprised that we in the US seem to be still thirsting for more horsepower in our vehicles and then complain about their need for premium fuel. Where are the electric vehicles? Why do the Lexus hybrids pride themselves at providing more horsepower and not more economy. Why is there not a performance/economy switch on the dash to allow owners a choice.

Gasoline just doesn't cost enough yet to get everyone playing on the same page. Perhaps $5 or $6 a gallon will trigger it.

 

Very well put into perspective my friend.

 

You hit the nail squarely on the head, it is just not painful enough for US yet.
I have a 30 mile each way commute each day and see smaller cars however many of these cars are driving in the 75-85 MPH mode. I see many Prius and other Hybrids driving the same way. Living in Calif. I have seen the MTBE hoax first hand, I was at the first rally at the State Capitol to try to ban MTBE. The oil companies loved using MTBE as it was a hazardous waste by product of there processes they had to pay to dispose of. Food to fuel is not the answer and the whole world is paying the price.
From what I have read the fuel we use now with out the oxygenates burns clean enough to pass all of the emission standards. So the real issue is consumption. It is my belief that the politicians are making a fortune on all of these fake programs to clean the air. When the US gets there consumption down then the Government will start to allow us to use all of the domestic oil we have. With out lowering our usage we will just keep building higher horse power cars and never lower usage.
Jeff

 

The idea is the corn to ethanol technolgy will someday turn into another ethanol making technolgy that doesnt involve corn or other crops.
I agree that we should tap into our oil fields a little more, but at a control rate. What are we going to do when we run out of oil in 110 years?
I think we have found ways to become more energy efficient already, its call energy price increase. The only way we, American, wants more energy efficiency is when we are force to by the high energy prices. When gas hit $5 or $6 a gallon, you will start to see less and less demand for high horespower cars.

 

You are absolutely correct. I live in an area that requires emission testing every couple of years in order to license the vehicle. This testing is mandated due to the amount of air pollution measured in Milwaukee. I live right inside the cutoff border of this area and I buy non-ethanol (a.k.a. pure gasoline) at a station just a few miles from my home that is outside the mandate. I pass the emission testing with flying colors.

The use of ethanol is like adding a filler to the gasoline, IMO. It adds no performance improvement and reduces vehicle mpg. I see about a 2 mpg reduction using 10% ethanol that I can demonstrate is repeatable on my two vehicles. With pure gasoline I can drive for about 390 miles on 15 gallons of pure gasoline on the freeway. Using 10% ethanol I can only drive about 345 miles before I use up 15 gallons. That difference equals two full gallon of pure gasoline. Said another way, I can drive at least 45 miles further on 15 gallons of pure gasoline vs. 10% ethanol and the cost is the same so by using pure gasiline I can go farther and it costs less. I meet the most current and stringent EPA emission requirements too.

 

Good points made here - moving from the RX 330/350.400h forum to Car Chat for wider exposure.

 

Thanks for moving this thread as I never check the RX forum and have been puzzled by the drop in fuel economy on my Camry. Over the last few months I have watched my local gas station go from 3 to 5 to 7 to now 10% ethanol. At the same time, I went from solidly getting 430 or 440 miles to a tank of gas to now around 390 or 400 flat. It is quite a loss to be honest.

 

1-2% Good joke.

Try 10-15%.

 

yeah...for the last 7+ years we have had Ethanol @ ALL our gas stations here in NY; you cannot find a gas station here with straight gas.

To add insult to injury (at my fault of course) I have a 2000 GS400 and last year changed the rear gearing from 3.23 to 3.76 and added a high stall TC. I am currently seeing 14.5mpg city driving...which sucks. Before that when it was stock I saw around 16-17mpg which is still kind of low. Ethanol really does hurt gas mileage.

I remember a thread about a year ago (before I did my mods) that spoke about gas mileage on the 2GS and I mentioned I was getting 16-17mpg where everyone else (from other states) with a GS4XX was getting 19+mpg! I couldn't understand why because I kept up with everything on my ride...now I know; it's because at that time those CL members on that thread was probably running straight gas and never heard of Ethanol...until now; welcome to the club.

 

Many regions have begun their annual transition to "summer gas" blends in the last 30 days. The thought is to add oxygenates to the fuel blend to restrict the production of ozone during the hot summer months. Since MTBE was banned, ethanol has been the oxygenate of choice.

E-10 fuel - that is only 10% ethanol will not harm your (automotive) fuel system, but it does lower your miles per gallon because of the lower energy available in ethanol. I tested the effect of ethanol last spring, achieving a 4 - 5 mpg improvement with premium 100% gasoline over E-10 on a moderately long highway trip. (details here) I can't claim the test was rigidly scientific, but I think it is illustrative of the principle - fewer BTU's per gallon results in lowered fuel economy.

E-85 fuel (that is 85% ethanol) won't harm your engine, but it can damage hoses, gaskets, and other "soft" components that may contact the fuel. "Flexfuel" vehicles don't have exotic powerplants, just a few different "rubber" parts to make them compatible with ethanol. Their fuel consumption should be identical to a conventionally-fitted automobile. Some manufacturers have attempted to make a sales point out of a few hoses and o-rings. Big deal.

 

Actually I meant that to read 1-2 MPG not 1-2 percent. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

you can buy E85 conversion kits from Brazil that will turn any car into a FlexFuel vehcile, it includes new ECU programing so the oxygen sensor can tell what fuel you are running on and adjust the timing etc appropratley as well as new fuel lines and o-rings. None are EPA legal but oh well, gotta keep those automakers lobbyists happy and the oil company lobbyists too...

 

Ethanol does help in keeping the engine and spark plugs cleaner....alcohol is a natural detergent. In E10 or lower concentrations, it is not harmful to the fuel system of a gas-only car, but does have a slight effect on lower mileage.

 

Just a little off topic. We have some incredible oil reserves here in the good old USA, some we're not even touching due to environment concerns, some we're just now starting to exploit. I've been following the discovery and drilling of an immense oil field some 175 miles off New Orleans (and thankfully in US territory). The oil is 30,000 feet below the gulf's surface (and apparently there is a second oil field in the same area), so special drilling platforms had to be made costing around one billion dollars each.
The point I'm trying to make is this particular offshore drilling site represents just the beginning of a whole new wave of deep water oil discovery and drilling, that may supply us with substantial new oil supplies for decades to come. I would much rather they seek out deep ocean oil reserves, then use so much energy and precious H2O to grow corn to make ethanol. That corn would be more efficiently, and appropriately used as food. Just my 0.02