lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

So what's the NUMBER ONE selling vehicle on the planet? Can you guess? I don't need to. It's the FORD F-150. Outsells EVERYTHING and has for many years.

My father-in-law owns a gas station. So what? It barely turns a profit as most gas stations do these days.

I have no allegiance to internal combustion. I just haven't seen anything demonstrably more efficient at propelling people and cargo from A to B.

bagwell

...and that's exactly why Ford should be FORCED to make the f150 get at least 35mpg+

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

I'm sure there are more than 100 people who would also like to buy a MkIV Supra despite gas costing $4 a gallon. There were about 13k of them imported between 1993 and 1998 as well. Is Toyota stupid for not producing a new Supra as well?

Am I smarter than the guys at GM producing the Volt? Well, I guess it will all depend on what the market conditions are when they actually get it to market in November of 2010. If oil prices do what they did between 1980 and 1990, they'll be pissed off again because the real price of oil went from $80 a barrel in 1980 to $20 a barrel in 1990 (this is actually what broke the Russian economy - not Star Wars). All the car manufacturers were furious over the investment they'd made in making fuel efficient cars that no one was buying. Could it happen again? Yes, it sure is possible. With the number of new hydrocarbon discoveries at sizes we'd only imagined in the last 10 years, I'd say there is a distinct possibility history could repeat itself. And GM will be cursing under their breath again.

Ordinary people buy big vehicles. They like big vehicles. Hummer is STILL selling vehicles and every Sierra Club member abhors them as a waste of resources from beginning to end. But the truth is, the buying public LIKES these behemoths. I don't PERSONALLY like any SUV. I don't own one, and have no plans to ever own one. I've never owned a truck - I've never owned a car bigger than a compact size because I don't NEED anything bigger, and yet the F-150 is the most prevalent vehicle on the face of the earth.

So, you can espouse all the wonderful features - the very stylish "no foreign oil" mantra, the very stylish hybrid/electric mantra, the very stylish high tech/high efficiency mantra; and the public will still not buy them in droves until they're forced to abandon their big, inefficient, absurd vehicles. There's only ONE way they'll do that - because they realize they can't afford to get from A to B with that F-150 anymore.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

HOGWASH! If people want to buy the things, they know good and well what it costs to operate. FORCED? WHY? To be responsive to people who don't put a dime in their pockets? I seriously doubt anyone holding FORD stock would agree with you. Ford needs to produce what people will buy. They buy F-150s just the way they are. When people stop buying them because they're too inefficient, then Ford will make them more efficient.

Jesus, the next thing you're going to tell me is the government should plan the economy for efficiency!

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Downplay? Not at all. Prius has been a marketing success for Toyota. It only took HOV access and both Federal and State tax credits for it to happen too. What a deal!

http://hybridreview.blogspot.com/200...ate-prius.html

IMHO, a pretty fair and unbiased view of Prius taking all facets into account.

Interesting 500k+ hits for hate+my+prius on Google

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

bagwell

too bad, its coming!!

hahhahahaha -- you think F150 sales are UP for 2008? don't forget how many F150's are sold commercially - NOT to individuals - I tried to look stats unsuccessfully.

http://www.findmysupra.com

btw -- there's 223 supras listed here --> http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/search...sfyc=&systime=

versus 8 Honda Insights....I wonder why????? hummm?????

bagwell

well, you asked for it so here it is .................directly from your link......#1 on the google page....


Make no mistake, I am the proud owner of a 2004 AG Seaside. The list of things I love about my Prius is very long. I would not trade it for any other car on the market. This is a short list of items that I wish I could change. Let's discuss it.

The A/C is always on.
Even when the A/C and the fan are off, the vents blow cool air when the temperature is set lower than the outdoor temp; even when I want it warmer. In the morning I have to lower my temperature setting to the low end and in the evening I have to do the opposite, just to get vented air. This is a waste of energy. Why can't I just get air strait from the outdoors to run through the vent without the compressor or heat exchanger getting involved?

Not enough leg room.
At 6'1” I am very rarely the tallest person in the room. Yet if I were taller, I would probably have to find a different car. With the steering wheel tilted all the way up, I have to turn my right leg sideways to get it past the steering wheel. Doing this repeatedly over the last 2 years has caused me some mild knee and hip pain (at the 'young' age of 36). Just a inch or two more room forward of the petals would be very helpful to us over 72” folk.

Rear View mirror blocks forward view.
Again related to my height. The rear view mirror sits directly in my line-of-sight. To see more than slightly to my right I must duck, stoop, slouch, or lean forward. This is a big pain at 4-way stops.

Side air bag cavities too wide.
These greatly reduce my vision to the side; especially to the left. The problem is especially pronounced on the lazy winding road I take home. I have to bob and weave like Mohamed Ali to see the road to the left. This problem is much worse in this car than in any other I have driven. I'm telling you that I nearly get an aerobic work-out dodging all of the obstacles to my line of sight.

Cannot turn on the fog lights without the headlights
When driving in the snow (or fog), the reflection of my own headlights off of the falling snow blinds me. The Toyota HID lamps compounds the problem because they are so bright. In the past, I have turned on the fog light without turning on the headlights. That is not an option with the Prius; the fog lights make no impact on my ability to see the road in those conditions.

The Reverse and Drive are in counterintuitive positions.
Anyone that has ever used a joy-stick knows that forward should be up and backwards should be down. The Prius is opposite. Why is that?

Poor visibility using side-veiw mirrors.
I fixed this with some wide-angle stick-on mirrors.

The velour cloth used for armrests.
This stuff looks terrible after a few weeks of use. Spills are impossible to get out. After two years use, the center armrest is threadbare on the corners and the cloth is peeling off.

That's it. I have nothing but praise for the rest of the car.

Nextourer

Hmm... maybe you're longer in the leg than I am? but I'm ok in the driver's seat. Or maybe that 1-2 inches really make a difference?

I agree about the foglights and the cloth for the armrests. Ugh. But the rear view mirror, it's double-jointed. Have you tried moving both joints up?

Also look at the joystick, it's laid out in the PRND fashion.

bagwell

nextourer -- no, I had one -- and I'm 6 ft -- and the car seemed huge to me -- that thread was from lobux supplied link. The guy must be pretty fat if he has the steering wheel all the way up

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Too bad? Why would that be? Oh, you think I'm an idiot because I don't agree with you, and you think I believe inefficiency is good. Sorry, you're looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Obviously you missed the part about me never owning a truck of any kind. It would truly be a marvel if Ford produces a truck with the F-150's capacity that got 35 mpg. It's unfortunately impossible from a physics perspective - it takes energy to move mass, and 3000 lbs of payload isn't cheap to move no matter how you slice it.

BTW, stats are right in this forum on the sticky at the top. We put them there so everyone can find them.

There are 233 Supras for a lot of reasons, and 8 Insights for a lot of reasons. So let's compare practicality. I can drive my Supra from Atlanta to Sacramento (which I have done) without any extended stops. In fact, I can do it in 35 hours, and I've documented this trip. Can you do that in your Insight? No, but you'll tell me you work for an airline, and you'd rather fly and rent a car at the other end because it's cheaper for you. Well, guess what, it isn't cheaper for the vast majority of people because they don't work for an airline as you do.

Also, as was the fashion in 1974 after the first Oil Crisis, small gas efficient vehicles are selling like hotcakes. Should this event pass, as it did before, Americans will flock back to their big vehicles in droves, and all the CAFE cars will sit on the showroom floor just as they did in the 80's and 90's.

Be smug. Think you've solved the whole problem with electricity. Good luck with that. If you think the brown-outs in 2002 were bad, just wait 'til 10 million cars plug in every night. Are you familiar with allowing your electric utility the ability to cycle your air conditioning when their load is dangerously high? Did you know this happens in the afternoon and evening when people are getting home, cooking food, and businesses are shutting down? I do. I was a "Peak Corps" member when I lived in Sacramento. So right about the time people will be plugging in, the electric company will be turning off your charger until the load subsides. This truly promises to be interesting.

You can also bet the states will start taxing electric cars with a special road tax since they're getting a free ride now. As soon as local governments feel the lost revenues, they'll be clamoring for new taxes on electrics and hybrids. And regardless of the advocacy websites, electric power is 71% likely from coal, petroleum, natural gas, and other gases. Unless you want to cough up your own $100k for a 15kva solar array adequate to charge your electric car. Never mind that those solar cells took two units of energy for every three they produce.

With any luck this will be a banner year for hydroelectric since the West has received so much precipitation in the snow pack, but looking at the numbers, it's pretty easy to see hydroelectric suffers in dry years. There are LOTS of ways to make power. There aren't lots of ways to make power cheaply or cleanly.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

The Prius has NOTHING to do with the title of this thread.

Sens4Miles

True, I don't know why lobuxracer brought it up

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

How exactly would this 'force' work? Is it regardless of cost? Or will a price be 'forced' upon Ford? Would this new 35+mpg F150 still 'have to' (by force) be able to do all the things it can do today?

Since rising gas prices have ALREADY caused sales of smaller more economical vehicles (not necessarily more 'efficient' - I dislike that term, as it implies there's no trade-off, like being cramped and having to smell the bad breath of your passengers), doesn't that mean the MARKET lessens the need for the 'force' you describe?

U.S. fuel consumption has gone down without the government doing jack squat.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Back to the thread title...

With all the engineering talent out there, and yes lawyers, do you guys (bagwell, Sens4Mile, et al) believe the ONLY thing holding back the EV market are these patents Chevron owns? If not, what is?

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Yes it does. Look at the market. If EVERYONE wanted an electric as Sens4miles and bagwell would have us believe, they'd be buying hybrids now. Look at the sales numbers. Camry STILL outsells Prius by almost 2:1. The Ford F-150, despite an 11+% drop in sales still sells twice as many units as Camry. It has EVERYTHING to do with why electrics (and hybrids) are still outside the realm of wide acceptance. It costs a lot of money to put these designs in the market, and the only hope the manufacturers have of selling them is if the current trend continues. If it doesn't, they're as dead as they were in the late 80s when they were still worried about MPG and the buying public couldn't have cared less.

It's NOT THE TECHNOLOGY, it's the business case.