Running on Empty: Cars that Never Need Gas - EV discussion
05-21-08, 10:59 AM
#91
Tech Info Resource
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conditions have radically changed.
I can honestly say its been over 1 year since I've driven a trip over 75 miles....and I can honestly say I don't plan on ever doing it again.
...and I'll go with your .0001% figure for percentage of people that only own 1 car (kidding there).....but EV's are not the 100% solution....just 80+% of the solution (assuming solar becomes more prevalent)....go look at my average miles driven per day poll.
I can honestly say its been over 1 year since I've driven a trip over 75 miles....and I can honestly say I don't plan on ever doing it again.
...and I'll go with your .0001% figure for percentage of people that only own 1 car (kidding there).....but EV's are not the 100% solution....just 80+% of the solution (assuming solar becomes more prevalent)....go look at my average miles driven per day poll.
There are also a lot more single vehicle families than you'd like to believe. Those of us who can afford a Lexus like to think we're only a little above average. We're not. There are still an awful lot of people who are dependent on a single vehicle to do everything they need.
Sure, anyone who is in a multiple car family could realistically consider an electric for a short daily commute. But in a country where $62k annually puts you in the top 10% of earners (globally, you're in the top <1%), there are still a lot of people not prepared to commit to dealing with the potential issues around owning an electric. If there is a time when we see 250 - 450 miles of range with a recharge in the sub-30 minute range (I can envision someone on a long trip stopping every 300 miles or so and not minding a 30 minute break to "top off") then electrics will have truly arrived. At this point though, electric owners are like Linux users in 1993 - very technical, very willing to deal with the limitations, and very interested in hacking their vehicles to make them deliver more. As time goes on and improvements are made it will get better.
I'm just very opposed to mandating this through legislation. The market should drive this change, not the government.
05-21-08, 12:33 PM
#92
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
I'd describe almost tripling gas prices since 2004 as "conditions have radically changed" applicable for most americans...not just me....because in addition to costing more to fill your gas tank, its a domino effect on price increases on nearly everything thats manufactured, transported, or uses petroleum products in any way.
I'm with you in hating the daily commute -- I'm fighting to try and implement a 4 day - 10 hour a day work schedule and its like I'm trying to re-invent the wheel
it'd be a huge benefit to most employees and no-cost to the company while providing motivation when raises are not possible.
I'm with you in hating the daily commute -- I'm fighting to try and implement a 4 day - 10 hour a day work schedule and its like I'm trying to re-invent the wheel
it'd be a huge benefit to most employees and no-cost to the company while providing motivation when raises are not possible.
05-21-08, 01:27 PM
#93
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Sure, anyone who is in a multiple car family could realistically consider an electric for a short daily commute. But in a country where $62k annually puts you in the top 10% of earners (globally, you're in the top <1%), there are still a lot of people not prepared to commit to dealing with the potential issues around owning an electric. If there is a time when we see 250 - 450 miles of range with a recharge in the sub-30 minute range (I can envision someone on a long trip stopping every 300 miles or so and not minding a 30 minute break to "top off") then electrics will have truly arrived. At this point though, electric owners are like Linux users in 1993 - very technical, very willing to deal with the limitations, and very interested in hacking their vehicles to make them deliver more. As time goes on and improvements are made it will get better.
The Tesla Roadster for example has a 220 mile range per charge, but you're definitely paying for it. For the needs of most, 220 miles is unnecessary, which is why GM has probably settled on 40 miles as being the average most people will drive in a day (which is true).
05-21-08, 07:59 PM
#94
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I don't know where in TX you are but 75 miles can be covered going from one side of Dallas to the other and back again. If you're in Dallas I guess you never want to go to Fort Worth, or Austin, or many other places.
....but EV's are not the 100% solution....just 80+% of the solution (assuming solar becomes more prevalent)....
05-21-08, 11:00 PM
#95
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Solar is still just slightly better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. 2 units of energy in, 3 units of energy out. Compared to oil even at $200 a barrel, it's not even close to efficient or cost effective.
To generate enough current to charge your Tesla, you'll need an array of 30 (!?!) 200W panels. This is larger than the roof on many homes, and it would require a $100k investment just for the panels - assuming completely free installation (like that happens) and free technology to allow the panels to track the sun so they can maintain something close to their rated output. Oh, and don't forget, a string of cloudy days will squash this whole plan pretty easily, so, again, it surely isn't for everyone everywhere.
To generate enough current to charge your Tesla, you'll need an array of 30 (!?!) 200W panels. This is larger than the roof on many homes, and it would require a $100k investment just for the panels - assuming completely free installation (like that happens) and free technology to allow the panels to track the sun so they can maintain something close to their rated output. Oh, and don't forget, a string of cloudy days will squash this whole plan pretty easily, so, again, it surely isn't for everyone everywhere.
05-22-08, 05:46 AM
#96
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
...and back to page 1....is this all BS then....??
"Five years ago, I spent about $45,000 and got a brand new car (the RAv4EV) and the solar system," he says. "We're still driving the car every day, and the solar system will continue to make fuel for whatever EV we drive in the future. For $45,000 we bought a new car and fuel for the rest or our lives."
In 1996, Dickey was invited to test-drive the GM "Impact", which he then leased for two years. (The Impact later became the EV1, the first modern electric vehicle.) "We loved that car and hated to give it back," he says. But the Toyota Rav4EV had just become available for purchase, so he bought the electric vehicle he is driving today.
Dickey says the inspiration to drive electric comes from having a child. "It would embarrass me to have to explain to my daughter why we continued to import and burn oil when we knew the consequences," he says. "Having no tune-ups and no trips to the gas station ever is just icing."
By installing a solar system atop his garage, Dickey took the next step in driving a totally clean car. "Now," he says, "I can deflect the comments that my 'electric' car is just a 'coal-burning' car. EVs are the ultimate flex-fuel vehicle. You can make electricity out of just about anything: sun, wind, natural gas, coal—even gasoline! Your fuel can be totally domestic, or in my case, totally local."
Asked how long it will take for the PV system to pay for itself, Dickey replies: "If we think of everything in terms of what it costs us in the short-term, we're screwed. It's the same argument people use against the Prius: When will it pay back in gas savings? But that only accounts for the money paid at the pump. What of the billions of dollars that leave our economy for oil, or the billions of our tax dollars that go toward tax incentives for oil companies? What of the cost of the military and the lives lost to protect our oil?"
But the short answer for the solar pay-back, he says, was "the instant I turned my system on." Dickey had been paying $75 a month for electricity. He took a loan out to buy the PV system, and pays $70 a month toward that loan. "My electricity and gasoline bills are now zero, and next year when my loan is paid off, this investment will be paying me probably for the rest of my life. My PV system covers the power for my home and my car. It displaces $90 worth of electricity and over $100 worth of gasoline every month. So my estimate of how long until the system pays for itself is no time at all!"
Last edited by bagwell; 05-22-08 at 05:53 AM.
05-22-08, 08:19 AM
#97
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
What does "PV" stand for? 
05-22-08, 11:45 AM
#99
There can only be One
New EV called the ZENN.
Total and complete WASTE of money.
Max MPH 25!!
yes you read that correctly. 25 mph MAX!
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/d...20/zenn_car_q/
Its cheap to, so all you guys that talk up the EV so much.
Go ahead an put your money where you mouth is.
Total and complete WASTE of money.
Max MPH 25!!
yes you read that correctly. 25 mph MAX!
TEXT OF INTERVIEW
KAI RYSSDAL: We have stepped outside the friendly confines of the Frank Stanton Studio to the Marketplace automotive test proving ground, otherwise known as the garage here at 261 S. Figueroa for another chat with our once and future car guy Dan Neil from the Los Angeles Times. Dan, good to see ya.
DAN NEIL: Hi, Kai.
RYSSDAL: We were going to start this segment with you pulling up in some great car, squealing the tires and revving the engine but we couldn't do that because of this thing you brought us today.
NEIL: Yeah, this is the ZENN electric car. And it doesn't squeal tires. In fact, ZENN stands for Zero Emission No Noise.
RYSSDAL: Uh, when I drive this home I plug it into the outlet in the garage?
NEIL: Absolutely. It's a 110 household outlet.
RYSSDAL: You know what's great, by the way .... The manufacturer's sticker, miles-per-gallon-city: 245.
NEIL: It's about one penny per mile to operate. But this goes only 25 mph, and it's limited to streets with only 35 mph speed limits.
RYSSDAL: Why buy this at $15,000 now when it can only do 25 or 30 mph, when I can wait maybe, what, two, three years, spend 15 grand and get something that can go 50 and get me on the highways going to work instead of having to take surface streets and have some of the limitations that this has?
NEIL: I think gasoline is going to be $5 and $6 and, inevitably, $10 a gallon in the next 20 years. I think that Americans are going to have to accept a different modality when it comes to transportation. And people buy these cars to declare their greenness, their willingness to change, their coolness. Now, that isn't to say that's in bad faith or that they're not saving money. But this is really a forward looking kind of fashion statement.
RYSSDAL: Yeah, and on that point, actually, it's worth noting that in 2 1/2-inch-high letters in neon green on the side of this car it says: Electric.
NEIL: Oh, yeah.
RYSSDAL: And then you open it up and it's fairly bare. I mean, it's uh...
NEIL: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, it only weighs 1,280 pounds. This is what you get when you ask for a 1,280-pound car.
RYSSDAL: So, the seats are, I mean, you can see them sitting there on the little aluminum tubing. There's none of this . . .you know, upholstery. Well, there's upholstery but there's none of this sophisticated stuff.
NEIL: That's right. The glove box in a Mercedes Benz S Class is more substantial.
RYSSDAL: Let's go for a ride.
NEIL: OK
RYSSDAL: Seat belt for me ....
NEIL: OK.... Now it's on.
RYSSDAL: That was it.
NEIL: That was it.
RYSSDAL: There was nothing. There was the click of the key and that was it.
NEIL: That's right. All right, here we go.
RYSSDAL: Out o the streets of Los Angeles. We're going to go through the 2nd Street tunnel here.
NEIL: Yeah, now, the 2nd Street tunnel is usually about a 60 mph zone.
RYSSDAL: Oh yeah. Speed limit's 25, though, so ...
NEIL: Yes, that's right. The speed limit is officially 25.
RYSSDAL: And we're doing 22, 23, so this thing is almost pegged ...
NEIL: There you go. It's pegged now.
RYSSDAL: 27!
NEIL: Oh, 27!
RYSSDAL: 27, come one, with a couple of extra hundred pounds in the back.
NEIL: Oh, it's interesting. We have some inertia.
RYSSDAL: Oh, but see .... you hear that sound? That's me hitting the peg on the bottom of the gas pedal.
NEIL: Uh-huh. There you go. But, again, it sounds like we're discrediting electric vehicles. That's ....
RYSSDAL: And it's important that that not be the case, right?
NEIL: Let's not discredit this technology. This is a very kind of extreme case. But electric vehicles do work, can work. They will be affordable. So this is kind of a transitional vehicle.
RYSSDAL: [BEEP] Oh, the horn is on the blinker thing! So sorry. Yeah, now, I would think about this. Not this one, but along these lines in the next couple of years if gas hits $5 and $6.
NEIL: Yeah, if you lived in Playa Del Rey or Santa Monica or Sun City, Ariz., or any big retirement community, why wouldn't you have one of these? It will do 99 percent of what people want it to do and cost a penny a mile to drive. So I think it makes great sense for a lot of
KAI RYSSDAL: We have stepped outside the friendly confines of the Frank Stanton Studio to the Marketplace automotive test proving ground, otherwise known as the garage here at 261 S. Figueroa for another chat with our once and future car guy Dan Neil from the Los Angeles Times. Dan, good to see ya.
DAN NEIL: Hi, Kai.
RYSSDAL: We were going to start this segment with you pulling up in some great car, squealing the tires and revving the engine but we couldn't do that because of this thing you brought us today.
NEIL: Yeah, this is the ZENN electric car. And it doesn't squeal tires. In fact, ZENN stands for Zero Emission No Noise.
RYSSDAL: Uh, when I drive this home I plug it into the outlet in the garage?
NEIL: Absolutely. It's a 110 household outlet.
RYSSDAL: You know what's great, by the way .... The manufacturer's sticker, miles-per-gallon-city: 245.
NEIL: It's about one penny per mile to operate. But this goes only 25 mph, and it's limited to streets with only 35 mph speed limits.
RYSSDAL: Why buy this at $15,000 now when it can only do 25 or 30 mph, when I can wait maybe, what, two, three years, spend 15 grand and get something that can go 50 and get me on the highways going to work instead of having to take surface streets and have some of the limitations that this has?
NEIL: I think gasoline is going to be $5 and $6 and, inevitably, $10 a gallon in the next 20 years. I think that Americans are going to have to accept a different modality when it comes to transportation. And people buy these cars to declare their greenness, their willingness to change, their coolness. Now, that isn't to say that's in bad faith or that they're not saving money. But this is really a forward looking kind of fashion statement.
RYSSDAL: Yeah, and on that point, actually, it's worth noting that in 2 1/2-inch-high letters in neon green on the side of this car it says: Electric.
NEIL: Oh, yeah.
RYSSDAL: And then you open it up and it's fairly bare. I mean, it's uh...
NEIL: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, it only weighs 1,280 pounds. This is what you get when you ask for a 1,280-pound car.
RYSSDAL: So, the seats are, I mean, you can see them sitting there on the little aluminum tubing. There's none of this . . .you know, upholstery. Well, there's upholstery but there's none of this sophisticated stuff.
NEIL: That's right. The glove box in a Mercedes Benz S Class is more substantial.
RYSSDAL: Let's go for a ride.
NEIL: OK
RYSSDAL: Seat belt for me ....
NEIL: OK.... Now it's on.
RYSSDAL: That was it.
NEIL: That was it.
RYSSDAL: There was nothing. There was the click of the key and that was it.
NEIL: That's right. All right, here we go.
RYSSDAL: Out o the streets of Los Angeles. We're going to go through the 2nd Street tunnel here.
NEIL: Yeah, now, the 2nd Street tunnel is usually about a 60 mph zone.
RYSSDAL: Oh yeah. Speed limit's 25, though, so ...
NEIL: Yes, that's right. The speed limit is officially 25.
RYSSDAL: And we're doing 22, 23, so this thing is almost pegged ...
NEIL: There you go. It's pegged now.
RYSSDAL: 27!
NEIL: Oh, 27!
RYSSDAL: 27, come one, with a couple of extra hundred pounds in the back.
NEIL: Oh, it's interesting. We have some inertia.
RYSSDAL: Oh, but see .... you hear that sound? That's me hitting the peg on the bottom of the gas pedal.
NEIL: Uh-huh. There you go. But, again, it sounds like we're discrediting electric vehicles. That's ....
RYSSDAL: And it's important that that not be the case, right?
NEIL: Let's not discredit this technology. This is a very kind of extreme case. But electric vehicles do work, can work. They will be affordable. So this is kind of a transitional vehicle.
RYSSDAL: [BEEP] Oh, the horn is on the blinker thing! So sorry. Yeah, now, I would think about this. Not this one, but along these lines in the next couple of years if gas hits $5 and $6.
NEIL: Yeah, if you lived in Playa Del Rey or Santa Monica or Sun City, Ariz., or any big retirement community, why wouldn't you have one of these? It will do 99 percent of what people want it to do and cost a penny a mile to drive. So I think it makes great sense for a lot of
Its cheap to, so all you guys that talk up the EV so much.
Go ahead an put your money where you mouth is.
05-22-08, 11:47 AM
#100
There can only be One
Another thing I thought about with the hurricane season coming.
If say everyone in America switches over to EV's, wouldn't evacuating in an emergency situation be completely fruitless. With most EV's getting 100 Miles per charge, anyone that has ever been part of an evacuation during hurricane season knows that there is no WAY that little thing will last in bumper to bumper traffic trying to leave the city.
And what if you have to go further in than 100 miles.
When the hurricanes were coming through in 04, there were people from Cocoa, Daytona on down to ft lauderdale staying all the way over in Tampa, cause they couldn't find hotels.
That is beyond the range of the EV.
If say everyone in America switches over to EV's, wouldn't evacuating in an emergency situation be completely fruitless. With most EV's getting 100 Miles per charge, anyone that has ever been part of an evacuation during hurricane season knows that there is no WAY that little thing will last in bumper to bumper traffic trying to leave the city.
And what if you have to go further in than 100 miles.
When the hurricanes were coming through in 04, there were people from Cocoa, Daytona on down to ft lauderdale staying all the way over in Tampa, cause they couldn't find hotels.
That is beyond the range of the EV.
05-22-08, 12:10 PM
#101
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Another thing I thought about with the hurricane season coming.
If say everyone in America switches over to EV's, wouldn't evacuating in an emergency situation be completely fruitless. With most EV's getting 100 Miles per charge, anyone that has ever been part of an evacuation during hurricane season knows that there is no WAY that little thing will last in bumper to bumper traffic trying to leave the city.
And what if you have to go further in than 100 miles.
When the hurricanes were coming through in 04, there were people from Cocoa, Daytona on down to ft lauderdale staying all the way over in Tampa, cause they couldn't find hotels.
That is beyond the range of the EV.
If say everyone in America switches over to EV's, wouldn't evacuating in an emergency situation be completely fruitless. With most EV's getting 100 Miles per charge, anyone that has ever been part of an evacuation during hurricane season knows that there is no WAY that little thing will last in bumper to bumper traffic trying to leave the city.
And what if you have to go further in than 100 miles.
When the hurricanes were coming through in 04, there were people from Cocoa, Daytona on down to ft lauderdale staying all the way over in Tampa, cause they couldn't find hotels.
That is beyond the range of the EV.
05-22-08, 12:15 PM
#102
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/d...20/zenn_car_q/
Its cheap to, so all you guys that talk up the EV so much.
Go ahead an put your money where you mouth is.
Its cheap to, so all you guys that talk up the EV so much.
Go ahead an put your money where you mouth is.
05-22-08, 12:38 PM
#103
There can only be One
If the solution is to get rid of all cars and replace them with EV's then having the other car that runs on gas isn't an option in the above situation.
If 2 people in the home work, both cars are EV's and lets assume no one owns .28 of a car, then you are screwed.
05-22-08, 12:59 PM
#104
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)Trust me, I will put my money where my mouth is as soon as either GM, Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Subaru or any of the others puts out a full EV that gets decent range, can be used up to normal speeds, and costs less than 40k. Of course, they already did have those vehicles on the road several years ago, but crushed and destroyed them when the patent for the batteries were sold to an oil company.
Anyway, the technology is there now for long range pure EVs using the Li-Ion batteries, but it's mostly just an issue of expense at this point.
05-22-08, 01:41 PM
#105
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
This is my POINT!
If the solution is to get rid of all cars and replace them with EV's then having the other car that runs on gas isn't an option in the above situation.
If 2 people in the home work, both cars are EV's and lets assume no one owns .28 of a car, then you are screwed.
If the solution is to get rid of all cars and replace them with EV's then having the other car that runs on gas isn't an option in the above situation.
If 2 people in the home work, both cars are EV's and lets assume no one owns .28 of a car, then you are screwed.
but if 50% (or more) people just commuted with EV's or PHEV's that'd it be a GOOD thing! The VOLT is a great idea but I don't need the extended range of the ICE 99.9% of the time....it sounds like you do.
oh - my .28 car is my bicycle - I use it to go to the grocery store that's 3 miles away from me A LOT!