MT First Drive: Hyundai Genesis
05-30-08, 01:08 AM
#136
Lexus Test Driver
But Infiniti's quality always top notch? Really? The QX isn't an Infiniti? What was the biggest qualm about the G35<<interior build quality.
If I was older, and in the market for a car of that type, I would really consider the Genesis--and not to just defend my point. It's got power, it's RWD, from the looks of it, it's built well and it's well-priced. Why not?
But as I am barely starting my 20s, I still have urges to fulfill. I'm sure my parents will be definitely interested in the Genesis though...
05-30-08, 02:51 AM
#137
Pole Position
I can assure you that when it comes to reliability, generally speaking, a $16k Hyundai will travel *more* miles with *fewer* problems than a $45k, hell, even a $100k BMW.
Sorry you had a bad experience with Hyundai but as much as Hyundai's are beaten and neglected by their owners they hold up pretty well. No BMW, Mercedes, or Audi could ever take the beating that Hyundai owners dole out on their cars.
You want to talk about reliability? Bring it!
05-30-08, 07:38 AM
#138
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Some of you know I OWNED a Hyundai in H.S/college, a Turbo Scoupe. A total POS. The car was so bad I still can not consider owning the brand, evne though I am well aware TODAY the cars are nothing like what I owned.
TODAY, Hyundai makes well built cars.
Maybe MMarshall can shime in?
TODAY, Hyundai makes well built cars.
Maybe MMarshall can shime in?
05-30-08, 09:48 AM
#139
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So your basis of a brand rests on their crappiest car from 2001. A RENTAL at that. Are you, in all honesty, serious?
So you were on the moon when the Hyundai Sonata beat the family sedan comparisons last year right? Because what on earth were those magazines thinking when they awarded a Hyundai with that honor! What nerve! Who do they think they are?
Let's recall your favorite brand, Infiniti. In 2001---they....were... I don't know what they were doing really. Still nothing but a blip--even behind Acura back then. rebadged Maximas and Pathfinders, and a tiny, underpowered "entry-level luxury" sedan called a G20. Their flagship Q45 was even a less extraordinary car back then--if anything, the generation BEFORE was the Q45's peak.
When the G35 was brought out in 2003, that's when people actually started caring about Infiniti. Never mind the lack of a proper flagship or a mid-size sedan worth caring about, the G35 became the "little car that could" for Infiniti. Last year with the revamped M series, Infiniti is at least making an effort to stay serious, and to get to a Tier-1 Level maker. The newly redesigned G35/37 are fantastic cars, there's no denying that.
But if we turn the perspective around for a little bit, and think about the barely mediocre offerings from Infiniti just 8 years ago--let's see how far Hyundai has come. Their Sonata won awards. In America. Their SUVs aren't the best in class--but people care and compare them to others. Their compact cars--are actually worth looking at from a value standpoint. The Azera can compete with an Avalon. From the company that can barely keep a car running, according to your own words, they've become an award-winning company that the press and manufacturers alike have begun to notice as a giant in development.
The Genesis, may not be the greatest car in the world. It isn't meant to be. It's only Hyundai's prelude into the luxury segment--Hyundai's "G35"--if you can't even give them THAT....then I don't know anymore.
So you were on the moon when the Hyundai Sonata beat the family sedan comparisons last year right? Because what on earth were those magazines thinking when they awarded a Hyundai with that honor! What nerve! Who do they think they are?
Let's recall your favorite brand, Infiniti. In 2001---they....were... I don't know what they were doing really. Still nothing but a blip--even behind Acura back then. rebadged Maximas and Pathfinders, and a tiny, underpowered "entry-level luxury" sedan called a G20. Their flagship Q45 was even a less extraordinary car back then--if anything, the generation BEFORE was the Q45's peak.
When the G35 was brought out in 2003, that's when people actually started caring about Infiniti. Never mind the lack of a proper flagship or a mid-size sedan worth caring about, the G35 became the "little car that could" for Infiniti. Last year with the revamped M series, Infiniti is at least making an effort to stay serious, and to get to a Tier-1 Level maker. The newly redesigned G35/37 are fantastic cars, there's no denying that.
But if we turn the perspective around for a little bit, and think about the barely mediocre offerings from Infiniti just 8 years ago--let's see how far Hyundai has come. Their Sonata won awards. In America. Their SUVs aren't the best in class--but people care and compare them to others. Their compact cars--are actually worth looking at from a value standpoint. The Azera can compete with an Avalon. From the company that can barely keep a car running, according to your own words, they've become an award-winning company that the press and manufacturers alike have begun to notice as a giant in development.
The Genesis, may not be the greatest car in the world. It isn't meant to be. It's only Hyundai's prelude into the luxury segment--Hyundai's "G35"--if you can't even give them THAT....then I don't know anymore.
Now S. Korea needs to reduce their absurd import tariffs.
05-30-08, 09:53 AM
#140
Lexus Test Driver
Their import tariffs are indeed ABSURD...
people make a FORTUNE shipping cars over in smaller numbers for "personal use" and then turn it over for craploads of profit... the going rate for a 530i (now probably 535i) when I was over there last summer was almost $100K USD !!!!
people make a FORTUNE shipping cars over in smaller numbers for "personal use" and then turn it over for craploads of profit... the going rate for a 530i (now probably 535i) when I was over there last summer was almost $100K USD !!!!
05-30-08, 10:06 AM
#141
I am going to venture to say no they don't, but the public will have the final word.
05-30-08, 10:10 AM
#142
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Wait a minute. Who rents a 7 year old Hyundai, Rent-a-Wreck? Yea, that's a great comparison! I could tell you worse stories about BMW, so what's your point?
I can assure you that when it comes to reliability, generally speaking, a $16k Hyundai will travel *more* miles with *fewer* problems than a $45k, hell, even a $100k BMW.
Sorry you had a bad experience with Hyundai but as much as Hyundai's are beaten and neglected by their owners they hold up pretty well. No BMW, Mercedes, or Audi could ever take the beating that Hyundai owners dole out on their cars.
You want to talk about reliability? Bring it!
I can assure you that when it comes to reliability, generally speaking, a $16k Hyundai will travel *more* miles with *fewer* problems than a $45k, hell, even a $100k BMW.
Sorry you had a bad experience with Hyundai but as much as Hyundai's are beaten and neglected by their owners they hold up pretty well. No BMW, Mercedes, or Audi could ever take the beating that Hyundai owners dole out on their cars.
You want to talk about reliability? Bring it!
I have nothing against Hyundai, really I don't. Their cars nowadays are very nice. I just think they completely missed the mark with the Genesis as far as pricing goes. This car begins at $33k. The Azera slotted just below it starts at $24k. That's almost a $10,000 gap between the two models. That is absurd. What other car company does that?
Let's compare their other sedans for a minute:
Accent: starts at $11k
Elantra: starts at $13k
Sonata: starts at $18k
Azera: starts at $24k
Genesis: starts at $33k
That's a big wide gap between the Azera & the Genesis. Too big. What they should have done was start the pricing for the Genesis at $29k. The V8 could have started at $34k and that would have been very competitive pricing. Again, they are not in a position to demand that kind of dough for any Hyundai-branded sedan.
I read an article last night where they say they plan on starting an $80 million dollar advertising campaign in the U.S. starting in August. Honestly, I don't think it's going to help them. Buyers in that market care just as much about brand image as they do about the car itself.
My prediction? if they're lucky, they'll move 200 units/month.
05-30-08, 10:31 AM
#143
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I know that I still seem like the only skeptic of this car, but I have to say that I am still not completely impressed.
As I have noted all along, the shape and details of this car leave so much to be desired at this price point. It looks terribly, painstakingly bland and cheap from the outside. The Mazda 3 and other economy cars manage to be significantly better looking.
Also, as for this first drive, it sounds like great competition for the Avalon and Taurus. More positioned towards comfort than sport, big interior, and nice features.
I really feel like this is Hyundai's answer to the G8 and Avalon (probably splitting the difference between the two), more than a real competitor to the GS, 5, and E.
Lacks the visual punch and driving character, IMO.
As I have noted all along, the shape and details of this car leave so much to be desired at this price point. It looks terribly, painstakingly bland and cheap from the outside. The Mazda 3 and other economy cars manage to be significantly better looking.
Also, as for this first drive, it sounds like great competition for the Avalon and Taurus. More positioned towards comfort than sport, big interior, and nice features.
I really feel like this is Hyundai's answer to the G8 and Avalon (probably splitting the difference between the two), more than a real competitor to the GS, 5, and E.
Lacks the visual punch and driving character, IMO.
Hyundai as usual has some ridiculous hopes this car will compete with BMW, Lexus, or Mercedes, but the more likely reality will turn out to be that it competes with the Avalon or G8.
PWNage
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..2.*
Read the review in the link to hear the full story.
.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..2.*
Read the review in the link to hear the full story.
.
In another thread weeks ago, you yourself said that we cannot judge the Korean market Genesis after a Korean journalist reviewed it poorly. Yet here you are praising an Edmunds review that reviewed a Korean market Genesis? Seems contradictory to me.
For 33K, why would someone buy a Genesis over say, a G35 or a CTS or a Lexus ES? Keep in mind the superior dealer treatment and service people would receive at a Lexus or Infiniti dealer compared to a Hyundai dealer. Also don't forget the piece of mind that people would have when buying the Lexus. Piece of mind is a subjective thing which you can't really put a price on.
Also, just as I had predicted, a fully loaded V8 Genesis will be OVER 40K.
I agree with most of your post. Even driving an IS250 or 328i with 17" wheels, the overall feel of the car is completely different from somthing like this. It's a large car with floaty handling and a soft suspension. I really don't think that the entry level luxury class (even anemic offerings like the TSX) will be affected almost at all by the Genesis.
painstakingly bland and cheap? Interesting observation. Could you possibly point out, what it is, exactly, that looks cheap? I see *nothing* cheap about this car at all. I think most people in this thread would agree. I think it has a very high element of class to it. I only wish the new Accord were this nice looking.
This is a tough economy right nowOK guys, I need some help here. Why has the Hyundai Genesis generated so much ill will from people who haven't even seen the thing yet? Maybe it will be great. Maybe it won't. But is it that much of a threat to automotive civilization that people have to decide to hate it without even seeing or driving it?
As an automotive enthusiast, as well as someone who has great interest in corporate cultures of corporations from around the world, Hyundai draws criticism (from myself at least) because I disagree with their corporate culture, and I disagree with the way the company behaves itself. Before you mention the tired argument of "why do you take this so seriously" I will once again clarify that I am a big automotive enthusiast, and I am passionate about many automotive topics, especially corporate cultures of automakers.
Hyundai with the Genesis DID NOT listen to the market, or provide what the market wants. Hyundai instead decided to FORCE what they think is right onto the market. You simply cannot blindly force something onto the market and expect it to do well. With luxury cars, the North American market not only wants, but practically demands that an automaker have a luxury brand if they wish to sell luxury cars. Several automakers in the past have tried to sell luxury cars without a luxury brand, and they have ALL failed. Toyota in the 1980s tried to sell the Cressida in North America. Sales flopped, and ultimately Toyota's plan failed. The Cressida was taken out of the North American market. Toyota learned from it's mistake and came up with the Lexus brand. More recently, VW tried to sell the Phaeton without a luxury brand (selling it as a VW instead of an Audi). That also failed and the Phaeton was taken out of the North American market. Trying to sell a luxury car without a luxury brand in North America cannot be done successfully.
Toyota couldn't do it, and VW couldn't do it so what makes you think Hyundai can do it?
Then you look at all the noise and hype Hyundai has been generating about the Genesis. They've made some ridiculous comparisons and some very ambitious statements. The car is not yet out in North America, but already some of these statements are being proved to be overblown. Hyundai is willing to spend $80 million JUST on the marketing and advertising for the Genesis in the US, yet Hyundai is not willing to create a separate luxury brand? It really irks me that Hyundai has this sense of entitlement. Hyundai executives believe they are entitled to have the Genesis be a success in the US market. When Hyundai senior execs had a meeting with the US executives months ago, they asked why there was trouble selling vehicles in the US, and after the US execs told them the reasons the Korean execs simply told them "try harder". That right there shows the stubborn and ignorant attitude Hyundai senior executives have. Regardless of the US market largely ignoring Hyundai products, they STILL feel they are entitled to be successful, thus the order for US executives to "try harder".
Talk about irrelevant comparisons
.Looking at cars that will *realistically* be cross-shopped, the Genesis V6 is almost 1K more than a G35, and is 1K less than a CTS. The Genesis V6 is also 1K less than an ES350, roughly 1K less than a TL and 5K more than a Lucerne.
If you bought a Lexus in the early 90s, tons of people with Benzes, BMWs, etc. still thought the Lexus was 'pleasant' and good value for money, but not a real luxury brand. They didn't take it seriously.
Well here we are, almost 20 years later, and Hyundai is changing the game and now that Lexus is established, many Lexus and other luxury brand owners will see the Hyundai as pleasant and maybe good value for money, but not a real luxury brand. They're not taking it seriously.
Well here we are, almost 20 years later, and Hyundai is changing the game and now that Lexus is established, many Lexus and other luxury brand owners will see the Hyundai as pleasant and maybe good value for money, but not a real luxury brand. They're not taking it seriously.
The difference is Hyundai has NOT created a luxury brand for North America. Hyundai's brand image in North America simply CANNOT be stretched to encompass everything from thrifty, inexpensive small economy cars all the way to large, expensive luxury cars. That leads to dilution of a brand, and confusion among consumers as to what the brand stands for. This *might* be possible in other markets like Japan or Korea, but not in North America.
This is not rocket science here. If you want to successfully sell a luxury car in North America, you pretty much NEED a luxury brand in order to do it.
Yes Lexus was executed near perfectly, but Toyota deserves all the success it achieved with Lexus. Toyota spent nearly a decade creating the Lexus brand along with the LS400. Toyota spent *billions* of dollars in the 1980s to make both the Lexus brand and the LS400. Yes, Toyota understood it was a BIG risk that is why they threw EVERYTHING at the LS400 project and at the Lexus brand. The LS400 introduced several world's firsts, and it set completely new benchmarks in reliability, build, and overall quality.
The Genesis simply is not a strong enough effort from Hyundai for it to meet Hyundai's goals.
Key word is LOADED. A loaded Camry will come with a number of things not available or not found on a base model V6 Genesis.
THE VERDICT(IMO): The Genesis is simply another good entry into a class filled with models ranging from the Toyota Avalon to the Cadillac CTS, or the Lexus ES 350 and Chrysler 300C. It's not going to change the game, rewrite the rule book, or break any records, but it's a solid entry from Hyundai into previously unchartered territory.
In terms of size, engine choices, power, and features, the Genesis "competes" with the GS, M, 5, E, STS and A6. Compared to those cars, there is no denying that the Genesis is a value.
In terms of badge and dealership experience, the Genesis competes with the Avalon, Maxima, 300C, etc. Compared to those cars, it's not really a value.
So "value" is a relative term and depends on what your criteria are.
In terms of badge and dealership experience, the Genesis competes with the Avalon, Maxima, 300C, etc. Compared to those cars, it's not really a value.
So "value" is a relative term and depends on what your criteria are.
.To add to that, did the market ask for a luxury car under the Hyundai brand? Have Hyundai owners and consumers asked for a car like the Genesis? IMHO they did not, and the public definitely will have the final word.
Last edited by TRDFantasy; 05-30-08 at 10:36 AM.
05-30-08, 10:56 AM
#144
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05-30-08, 11:17 AM
#145
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Let me say the Cressida was never meant to compete with luxury cars or brands. It just happened to be RWD and was Toyotas top product. In the Lexus story, they acknowledge that the highest priced Toyota was a 16k Cressida and they were jumping to 36k. They felt Honda/Acura failed out the gates b/c an INtegra was the same price as an Accord.
Hyundai clearly set its goals high with this car.
Hyundai clearly set its goals high with this car.
05-30-08, 11:18 AM
#146
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Let me say the Cressida was never meant to compete with luxury cars or brands. It just happened to be RWD and was Toyotas top product. In the Lexus story, they acknowledge that the highest priced Toyota was a 16k Cressida and they were jumping to 36k. They felt Honda/Acura failed out the gates b/c an INtegra was the same price as an Accord.
Hyundai clearly set its goals high with this car.
Hyundai clearly set its goals high with this car.
You also bring up a point that the Cressida was fairly inexpensive, it offered a lot of value and Toyota had a fairly solid reputation in the 1980s in North America, yet the car was STILL a sales failure.
Even if the Cressida comparison is not the most direct one, there is the comparison of the Phaeton as well.
05-30-08, 11:34 AM
#147
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05-30-08, 11:52 AM
#148
Which $40K Benz or Lexus are you talking about? At that price, the only Benz or Lexus you might be able to get is the C Class and IS/ES. The IS350 might be a tough choice as that car IMHO is a good car, but way smaller than the Genesis. The ES350 I personally would never buy, so I'd choose the Genesis. The C Class although much smaller also might be a touch choice, but the Genesis looks so much better. Anything else in the luxury line and you are looking at $50K or more. GS350 is the next Lexus step up and that is at or over $50K. E Class is over $50K. The only luxury car IMHO that is a much better buy and value than the Genesis in the price range is the Infiniti G35. The M35 is also over $40K.
05-30-08, 12:33 PM
#149
Lexus Test Driver
Well I think they car will do OKAY sales wise. Its real competition will be from Buick, whatever their biggest sedan may be, the Chrysler 300C which starts out at 35K and the Toyota Avalon Limited or avalon period. The Limited avalon starts out at 34K and I have seen many more limited avalons on the road verses the Touring,XL,XLE. Plus avalons can reach over 40K pretty quickly. But I only see the Avalon, 300, and Buick w/e driven by older people more so the Buick and Avalon. I dont really think it will affect ES,GS,E,5,A6,STS sales all that much. But it will affect sales from the VW Passat, Avalon, Ford, and im sure the 300C which is RWD with a V8 and the Volvo S80
05-30-08, 01:47 PM
#150
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This is good. Main knock around here against the Genesis seems to be that it's badged as a Hyundai.
Now, why do I have a feeling that the Genesis 4.6 will beat the GS460 in a comparo?
Now, why do I have a feeling that the Genesis 4.6 will beat the GS460 in a comparo?