CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

The NSX flopped sales wise not because of the price but because of the lack of updating. They sold well over 3000 units the first year, well over 2000 units the second year, held steady, then with a slight decline up until 95, the NSX-T bumped sales up a tad, then fell off again, the NA2 bumped sales up again, then fell off. The fact that there was no major redesign was the downfall sales wise of the NSX in the later years. Think about it. If the car ran for say 5-7 years, then got an update, the sales would have been just find for the type of car it was. You really can't go 15 years with basically the same car and expect sales to be strong for a car like that. Even Porsche with the 911 does major updates ever so often even if the car looks basically the same

As for the RL sales flop, I can agree. I think part of the problem is the car is a good car, but also up against other good cars in its class. Because of that the RL doesn't stand out and if you factor in prestige and image it doesn't compete well. If this exact same RL came out around 2000 year, it would be much more successful IMHO. Acura took a leave of absence in 1996-2003, and now they are playing catch up. That was their fault. They really didn't do much during those years while the competition kept on moving forward. Too bad, because if Acura did continue on track like they were in the early 90s they probably would not be in this situation today. It will probably take at least 10 years before they get their recognition back and that is provided they actually start implementing some of their proposed goals within the next few years.


To be honest though, I think a lot of cars are over priced right now including some Lexus cars and specific models, some BMWs, some Mercedes, and even some of the more optioned out Infinti. A fully loaded M45 selling at over $60K IMHO is quite high. The difference is with some brands it has the Image and Prestige that people don't mind over paying for the name, and with some brands people wont over pay for the name.

RON430

I think the RL is a very good car. I stopped by last night to confirm it. The base price is 46280 (base price lower than introduction price years later - that tells you something) out here in NoCali and I could drive it home for 38774. Took less than 20 minutes to get that deal. That is much less than when they were introduced and if the people in Acura pricing had a single brain to share among the group, they would have priced at 40K from the getgo and maybe have a different story today. German option pricing is well known to be ludicrous, not sure if anyone other than Heidi Fleiss ever went for a benz designo option, and I think even the German car buyers here won't defend it. But I suspect there is only a group of one here who thinks you made the 550, E550, et. al. (and by the way, not to be too clever but you are aware that the RL comes with a 290hp V6 and not a V8, right? - or maybe you could post up how much the RL option of a V8 is) look ridiculous with your maximum possible vehicle pricing. Not to be misunderstood, the Germans are premium priced and I would hope they get some religion going forward on pricing with a different world economy but just because they have been able to convince people that they are worth their pricing doesn't make Acura's abysmal pricing decision on the initial RL at 50K look like they knew what they were doing either.

TLe2006

^agreed with cl6speed. Acura needs to get back on tracks.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

What is strange is people who are not familiar with Acura from the early days can't fathom an Acura selling for much over $40K. The 91 Legend, although the entry base trim level and even the L trim MSRP in the upper mid $30 range, a fully loaded LS, and later GS models sold for about $42K. This was back between 91-95. People had no problems paying $40K+ for the Acura Legend back then. Today though is a different story. The current RL for all intents and purpose is a much better car over all than the G2 Legend (Personal style preference aside), yet people are not willing to pay basically the same price for it as the old Legend. At one point in time Acura was right up there in terms of Image and Prestige amongst the competition. Then they took a vacation and watched everyone pass them by. They are back again, but its like once top pro ball player trying to make a comeback. He can still play, but is now quite far behind the competition and not really back to competition level yet. Its going to take some time for Acura to make a come back.

RON430

I think the Acura loyalists were also somewhat disappointed in the RL. I believe you are making this point. I think they wanted Acura to bring out a Legend replacement and go a bit more upmarket. But I am not sure very many of us disagree on Acura's potential. I think Acura makes some of the best vehicles in their niches but they need to think carefully about the future. That poll I ran a while back surprised me with the number of people who think very fondly of Acura, that got me to look at their offerings at the auto shows and they do a lot of things right. If anything, their interiors are probably the closest I have seen to Audi and for me, that's a complement. I really hope they can pull it off, I would love more options when shopping. Who wouldn't?

bagwell

+1

love that leatherette

I like the acura/lexus type options a lot better. Acura used to have just NAV as an option...

RON430

390 RLs sold in May in the US. They've got a long way to go.

LexFather

The Legend was 30-40k for the most part, most sold were L or LS models. We are both well aware of them much loved Acura Legend GS, THE best Legend with a sticker of 45k.

WE might love the Legend GS and it is superb but it rusted on dealer lots. Similar to how the 1st gen GS 300 price esclated to 45k and it rusted on dealer lots. Thus I stand by my statement, they simply cannot pass the 45k barrier with consumers/public.

Your analogy is pretty much on point. Except Acura is playing Flag-football when everyone else is playing REAL football.

LexFather

Honda had intergrated keyfobs before Acura did. The RL I think still has a pathetic 4 way power passenger seat. They OUTSOURCE all these techy gadgets then leave the cars based all on one Accord one way or the other.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I'm a little opposite on this. I rather have more individual options like days of old vs the package options deals many are moving to now. There are often options I want, but it is bundled into packages with options I don't care for. This forces me to spend the money on a package with options I don't want. I rather just pay for the specific options I want.

As for the leatherette, I don't mind it at all. I consider leatherette like the base cloth option. For me, I'd always upgrade to the real leather, but if I had to choose between cloth or leatherette, I'd take the fake leather any day. I don't really like cloth seats and I've been in BMWs with both real leather (Mine has real leather) and leatherette and the leatherette isn't bad at all.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

That is the point though. Even the LS model was still a $40K car. The GS was the $42K car. L models were still near $40K out the door as well. This is back in 1991-1995 dollars. $45K in today's dollars after you factor in inflation and general raise in cost of living and goods and services is probably something like $35K in 1990 dollars. This means people today are not even willing to spend what they would have spent on an Acura now as they did 15 years ago.

Think about it. $35-$40K back in the mid 90s was a lot of money. Today we have Accords and Camrys costing over $30K when those same cars sold for $22K back in the 90s. After inflation and general accepted raise in cost, people are willing to pay nearly $10K more for those cars today. Not the same with the RL. At an MSRP of $49K today, the RL is only about $10 more than what the Legend was 15 years ago. It should theoretically sell at that price; however, we know it doesn't sell at that price. That is what is odd too me. I believe it really isn't the car itself, but it is the name brand it is associated to. The Acura name is struggling right now and that is the majority of the poor effects on the cars they sell IMHO as opposed to the cars itself.

Another way we can put it is the RL should cost $40K today, and people are not willing to pay $10K premium for the Acura name it is associated to. The Lexus GS350 is a $40K car, but people are willing to spend a $10K premium for the Lexus name. That IMHO is the difference. I generally look at just the cars, so its hard for me at times to factor in the mystical "Image and Prestige" factor that people are willing to pay a premium for.

We as car guys should try and educate the ones we are in touch with on the theory of buying a car based on the car itself, and not the brand. I know people don't like this, but just like how you say people will buy a BMW just because it is a BMW, we should try and get those people to buy a BMW because of what the car has to offer. Great handling and driving dynamics. We as car guys shouldn't accept the norm and conform. We should educate those we encounter. It really is a better and more sensible way to buy a car or anything if you actually buy it based on its merits as opposed to only buying it because it is a brand name. I know people don't think this way, but we should try at least.

GSteg

iTrader: (15)

Chris you're right. Calculate inflation in and $45k today is approximately $32k in 1994 or so. Even if the Legend was $40k back then, it would be $57k today. So people were willing to spend a lot of money on Acura back then. They just wont do it now.

bagwell

I don't mind it, not bad really - but it should it be in BMW?
IMO leather should be standard in a luxury car.

back to RL....here's what Honda themselves are comparing the RL to...
2009 Acura RL 2008 Audi A6 3.2 2008 BMW 528xi 2008 Infiniti M35x 2008 Lexus GS 350 2008 Mercedes E320 4Matic

http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=4411

not for 09...

"The RL's perforated leather front seats now incorporate six levels of heated/cooled ventilation. Moreover, just like the driver's seat, the passenger front seat now has 10-way power adjustability. For 2009, the center panel controls are now more intuitive and are surrounded by a new background color along with improved quality wood patterned panels. These interior upgrades are complimented by advanced electronics that include a satellite-linked Acura Navigation System with Voice Activation™ along with the innovative AcuraLink® satellite communication system with Real-time traffic and (new for 2009) AcuraLink® weather. The RL is the first vehicle on the market to feature in-dash integrated, continually updated real-time weather information in a single-screen format. The spectacular Acura/Bose® 10-speaker Sound System with DVD-Audio returns but is now upgraded to include Bluetooth® Audio, a new Note function for XM® Radio, improved button legibility, a USB connectivity port, and even richer audio sound"

http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=4413

RON430

I know this thread has rambled a lot but OK, let's taken for a given we are all pretty aware of the current state of Acura and have our opinions. But what would you do going forward if you were Acura? Whether it's vapor or not, it does sound like there will be another NSX and it may be great, but that isn't going to be a volume generator. Or is the Acura desire to become a top luxury brand just so much gas? The other current models might be competitive in thei segment but if they want to really become a top luxury brand, what is the first step?

bagwell

with cheaper gas prices (2 years ago) I would have simply said to take thinks up a notch and build a flagship sedan to compete with LS + S class + 7 series.....but I don't know if that's feasible anymore...maybe make it a full hybrid? (the new RL is only rated at 16/22mpg).