98.5 yrs to break even on 600h
06-12-08, 01:52 PM
#16
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Its amazing how people take all this time to hate/detract from hybrids and they don't look at the whole picture, just their hazy picture where hybrids suck.
I don't recall ONE THREAD by anyone who bought a Leuxs hybrid bought it b/c it was going to be CHEAPER. THey bought it to save some gas and b/c it makes them feel good.
JOSEE VALCOURT should eat a hybrid battery for this article.
I am sure if the Germans came with these hybrids first, everyone would think they are man's gift from God himself.
I don't recall ONE THREAD by anyone who bought a Leuxs hybrid bought it b/c it was going to be CHEAPER. THey bought it to save some gas and b/c it makes them feel good.
JOSEE VALCOURT should eat a hybrid battery for this article.
I am sure if the Germans came with these hybrids first, everyone would think they are man's gift from God himself.
06-12-08, 04:42 PM
#17
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People will tell you that the 600h isn't meant for economy, it's meant for power but then I have to ask why isn't it any faster than the non hybrid?
Did that article take into consideration the opportunity cost of that money spent? If it was invested elsewhere? The cost of replacing the batteries? If it didn't take those into consideration then you can bet that 98 year figure would actually become a 'will never pay for itself', instead.
Did that article take into consideration the opportunity cost of that money spent? If it was invested elsewhere? The cost of replacing the batteries? If it didn't take those into consideration then you can bet that 98 year figure would actually become a 'will never pay for itself', instead.
its faster because some people get to drive in the car pool lane because its a hybrid
lol
06-12-08, 04:56 PM
#18
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Hybrids have all the same parts as their non-hybrid counterparts, plus tons more... and of course more parts = more things that can break... plus I'm sure more expected maintenance... battery replacement at 150k miles, at the very least. There's no way their maintenance/repair costs are lower overall.
06-12-08, 04:58 PM
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A CL thread from a few months ago:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ter+five+years
Also a very relevant quote from the article:
“The most common argument against hybrids is that they take too long to justify their higher purchase price,” added Bell. “But this is only true if you just look at relative fuel costs. When you add in other factors, such as maintenance, repairs, and resale value, which are also part of IntelliChoice.com’s Total Cost of Ownership formula, hybrids provide great value. In other words, today’s automakers are delivering high-quality and durable vehicles that also happen to reward with improved gas mileage and fewer emissions.”
A hybrid replaces many items that are typically mechanical with electrical equivalents. Any knowledgeable engineer will tell you electrical systems are inherently more reliable than mechanical systems.
Aside from the resale value and savings on brake costs, hybrids like the Prius have electric steering and electric A/C systems. Those not only help fuel economy, they save you money as less maintenance is required compared to mechanical systems.
Hybrids have all the same parts as their non-hybrid counterparts, plus tons more... and of course more parts = more things that can break... plus I'm sure more expected maintenance... battery replacement at 150k miles, at the very least. There's no way their maintenance/repair costs are lower overall.
As for battery replacement at 150K, where exactly did you get that number from may I ask? Since the Prius launched over a decade ago, Toyota has yet to replace any batteries due to regular wear and tear. There are Prius taxis out there with over 300,000 miles on them still running and using the original battery. One of those taxis Toyota acquired, took apart, and studied for development reasons. Toyota found the battery was still functional after over 300,000 miles.
A 600h is faster than a regular LS460 at passing, particularly highway passing.
Last edited by TRDFantasy; 06-12-08 at 05:03 PM.
06-12-08, 07:42 PM
#23
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I agree with both sides of this argument:
- Those who are buying hybrids due to the current gas panic are stupid. They are responding emotionally rather than rationally, because the economic case (as this article points out) is rather weak.
- Those who look at hybrids (particularly ones like the GS450h or the LS600hL) solely from a fuel economy standpoint are missing the point.
And I guess both points are related. Hybrids do have the potential to help but are hardly going to break our dependence on gasoline. Diesels and microcars like the Smart also help, but don't fundamentally alter anything. Even plug-ins and hydrogen fuel cell cars don't really, because the underlying energy that gets them going is based on fossil fuels eventually. We need to revolutionize the way we get energy and (as I said in another thread awhile back) the way to do that is through nuclear fusion.
- Those who are buying hybrids due to the current gas panic are stupid. They are responding emotionally rather than rationally, because the economic case (as this article points out) is rather weak.
- Those who look at hybrids (particularly ones like the GS450h or the LS600hL) solely from a fuel economy standpoint are missing the point.
And I guess both points are related. Hybrids do have the potential to help but are hardly going to break our dependence on gasoline. Diesels and microcars like the Smart also help, but don't fundamentally alter anything. Even plug-ins and hydrogen fuel cell cars don't really, because the underlying energy that gets them going is based on fossil fuels eventually. We need to revolutionize the way we get energy and (as I said in another thread awhile back) the way to do that is through nuclear fusion.
06-12-08, 09:50 PM
#24
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Search is a great tool:
A CL thread from a few months ago:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ter+five+years
A CL thread from a few months ago:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ter+five+years
Nice try. But please find some actual data on hybrid vs. non-hybrid maintenance costs. That article mentions overall costs of ownership, and does not state how hybrids do vs. non-hybrids specifically in terms of maintenance.
Last edited by carguy101; 06-12-08 at 09:55 PM.
06-12-08, 10:09 PM
#25
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lol. Reading is a great ability. That article says nothing about how hybrids cost less to maintain than a non-hybrid.
Nice try. But please find some actual data on hybrid vs. non-hybrid maintenance costs. That article mentions overall costs of ownership, and does not state how hybrids do vs. non-hybrids specifically in terms of maintenance.
Nice try. But please find some actual data on hybrid vs. non-hybrid maintenance costs. That article mentions overall costs of ownership, and does not state how hybrids do vs. non-hybrids specifically in terms of maintenance.
Maintenance costs are just one factor that makes hybrids save you money. As shown in the linked thread, other factors like resale value DO make hybrids cheaper vs. equivalent non-hybrid counterparts.
You can go onto priuschat.com and see the various Prius owners talk about how cheap their brake maintenance costs are, and how long the brakes actually last thanks to the regenerative braking system.
Maintenance and repairs are factored into the Intellichoice data, so its only logical that they would be cheaper vs non-hybrid equivalents.
I don't have all the data put together, but it's out there if you wish to browse it. You can also look around and see how much (and how often) people are spending on Prius oil changes, how much people spend on Prius A/C repairs or on Prius steering repairs. You can also look around and see how much people are spending on engine and transmission repairs.
It makes no sense as to why non-hybrid cars would cost less to repair than their hybrid equivalents, all other factors excluded.
06-12-08, 10:31 PM
#26
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I am sure if the Germans came with these hybrids first, everyone would think they are man's gift from God himself.
06-12-08, 11:13 PM
#28
The BIG picture is that the 600h is a more powerful version of the LS, which adds AWD, the highest trim levels ever offered of the car, LED headlights, driver infrared monitoring, etc.
That it is a hybrid is the cherry on top (if you like cherries, that is--smaller trunk space included 
)--basically, it is more power with less guilt (75% less emissions than competitors and slightly better fuel economy than the 460 L).If Lexus was making a pure efficiency hybrid we'd see something like an LS 350h with higher mpg, lighter interior fittings, etc. The LS 600h L is the heaviest LS ever IIRC and so it does not actually beat out the V12 competition but it does give similar horsepower and torque, plus the aforementioned features.
But lampooning the LSh and using it to paint all hybrids with a broad brush is doing a disservice both to efficiency-focused hybrids, the concept of Lexus hybrids, and the LSh which is in a (take it or leave it) category to itself.
In the same spirit, asking about "breaking even" on the LS 600h is like asking if solar panels on your mansion would lower the electricity bill. Yeah, sure it could reduce the bill, but the place is already gnormous to begin with, and no owner at that level is expecting the added tech to pay for itself.
Big picture? Hybrids are a unique technology, and CR has said that the Prius and Civic hybrid, IIRC, do pay for themselves after several years or so of driving. Other hybrids, not so much. And for some (LSh, GSh etc.), that is not the point. That is the big picture as I see it.
Last edited by encore888; 06-12-08 at 11:21 PM.
06-13-08, 04:24 AM
#30
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People that choose a LS600HL over the base model are not concerned with MPG lol. They buy the car because it has more features, looks better and that "600HL" on the trunk gives you some added status points.