2010mRXsh

Prior to visiting this Web site, I wasn't even aware of Lexus' interior quality problems.

The theme seems to be that older cars had better interiors and interior quality. But I've searched the forums and found only passing reference to this phenomena, mostly without any information to back it up.

I haven't had much experience with Lexus, but I sat in an old LX a long long time ago, and checked out a number of 07 and 08 models. I couldn't tell the difference. The overall feeling was, "Wow, this is luxury."

What I have seen is what appears to be people looking at what I'd consider to be details, and criticizing on that.

If a blind person drove a Lexus, I think that person would say

comfortable seats
quiet cabin
smooth ride

And possibly, in a comparison, the older one is slightly better at this than the newer ones. Right? If so, then how???

Question 2: How does Lexus interior compare to others? Specifically, BMW, Mercedes Benz and any others worth comparing? I'm generally not interested in quite a few manufacturers, but I'm interested in opinions.

Question 3: How does Lexus interior compare to cars in the $100,000+ range? Especially for those who have had the time to experience it firsthand. And especially for those who don't have some kind of bias (say, you actually spent $350,000 on a car).

Question 4: If not already mentioned above, what's better than Lexus in terms of interior overall quality, quiet and smooth ride?

Question 5: Can someone tell me the difference in interiors for the LS and ES?

I'm interested in how luxurious it feels. And differentiating from the biases that come with high income, low income, etc.

I haven't been in a new S Class, but what I've seen outside the car, it seems like Mercedes still has the technology, but their interiors are kind of blah.

I'm not blind, but as you can tell, my visual taste is about there, probably.

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

I can't answer all of your questions but the difference between the past and the present is essentially the quality with which the interiors are put together. There are many people that have complaints about squeaks or rattles all along the Lexus product line. Those problems didn't happen in the past. There are also small changes like the plastic-y dashes or plastic that is painted silver. Overall they are still fantastic interiors, the quality of all the parts just aren't as high as they were before.

Wait for mmarshall's post, he'll give you much more detail then I ever could

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

Good thread, and a great chance for me to mention something that I don't think a lot of people are aware of.

I am not 100% if what I'm about to tell you is absolutely correct, but this is what I am told from notable sources within Lexus.

For years and years, much of the dash and door materials in all cars was made of a mostly vinyl blend with plastics and some other materials. Somewhere around 7-8 years ago I guess they figured out that this vinyl pouring, molding, and finishing process released extremely harmful gasses into the atmosphere. This whole idea is not unlike Toyota/Lexus and others' switch to water based exterior paints after discovering the harmful affects on the atmosphere and environment.

The result of this discovery has been that many manufacturers have been toying with different plastics, rubbers, and synthetics to replace the vinyl that they once used. Feeling around on the interior of an ES 330 and ES 350, or LS 430 and LS 460 makes the difference in materials quite noticeable in pliability, grain, solidity, texture, etc.

The new materials that Lexus has used are somewhat harder than what they used to be and the result of this is that they expand less and are less pliable which leaves more room for parts to wiggle, move, and vibrate...thus the rattles. Looking at most other brands, rattle and noise issues are prevalent for the same reasons.


I don't know why this has not been more publicized as it seems to answer the questions that many of us have had. Considering the nature of the "problems" I am sure that Lexus will perfect this new generation of interior materials. They were especially bad in the 06 and 07 GS, 06 and 07 IS, and the 07 ES but it really does seem that the 08s have had far fewer rattle problems than the prior years.

speedflex

Interesting info. Thanks.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

seems like i am at the mood of posting today. i'd put in my 2 cents. for the record, i own/owned 1998 gs400, 2003 is300, 2005 sc430, 2007 ls460l, 2008 gs350. i also owned acura before and have my share of exposure on mb and bmw

1) short answer is yes, imho older lexus has better interior, and in some cases, much better interior. to me, the best era has been between the 01-06 time frame. namely the gs300/430, the ls430, and sc430. you can almost say the interior of those cars are bullet proof.

it's from the feel, to the material used, to the fit and finish and quality control. you can say i almost couldn't believe how solid they were. dead quiet inside, no rattles or squeak (unless you start modifying your car), all the touches are solid and firm.

since 06, all the new lexus models come out (in a rush, may i add), and that's where the slump started, not just interior but also exterior.

when you look at interior quality, initial quality is one thing but longer term results say in 6 months or 12 months, that's more crucial. it's less likely that your dash will start rattling 2 weeks after you get the car, but comes 6 months where you experience different weather and driving conditions? you still see it

also, fit and finish is something you have to look very detail and carefully. how are the gaps done? how are the connections done? how are the clips? how are the transitions between panels? i am a guy who takes apart the car sometimes, so i can see more than some people

so overall, yes, i think lexus interior quality has dropped noticeably. the new interior might look much cooler than the old ones, but i see more parts, more places for problems, and i do see more problems

2) i would compare apple to apple, meaning the IS to 3 and C, and GS to 5 and E. i would say lexus still has the best interior among the 3 (overall, including quality, comfort, quietness)

bmw is always on the harsh side, especially the seats. the dash and panel materials are also rougher and not as refined. when detailing my friend's car i did notice locations where the edges are not as clean

mb comes very close with lexus imho, but the leather on mb is not as good as lexus. the gadgets part of mb is great, except the trillion buttons

3) i don't have 350k for a car, but my ls460l was 85k. it has the best interior of all the lexus i think (and better be), and i have also been in the 600hl which is over 100k. comparing to the s class, i think they are very close with each other, with my preference on the lexus. but i am not down playing the s class interior, it's also very nice

and that's base on the fact that i do think the interior of ls460 is not as solid as the ls430. it looks a lot cooler (ls430 interior was boring to me), but ls430 was more solid

4) with your criteria, imho lexus is still the best. euro cars tend to be noisier and have more road feel, stiffer ride and harsher seats. i take it and pros vs cons

5) the ES and LS are night and day difference. i have my share of the ES loaners. the ls430 interior are much quieter, the leather quality are better and seats are far more comfortable. dash and panel materials are of much higher grade. fit and finish is also much better (better than the gs as well) although like i said not as good as ls430.

hope this helps. again when i talk about interior here, i am more towards the quality, rather than the other aspects, as that seems to be your main concern

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Henry (rominl) - EXCELLENT post.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Excellent post, I agree with everything, and would like to add a couple of things.

1) New Lexus models no longer have these "wrinkled" leather door pockets, which makes the doors on the new models look cheap. Same applies to the seats, the old models had soft "wrinkled" leather on the seats, which looks tons better than flat leather on the new models.

2) Exterior wise, Lexus no longer has these door mouldings, and no more of that chrome strip separating body and bumpers/door mouldings, which makes the car look like a soapbox.

3) New Lexus models look like every other car on the road, no unique distinction. This new "L-finesse" design language is more of a cost cutting plan than anything.

4) The yellow foglight/HID combo on the 2GS and 1IS looked sick. Why did they get rid of it?

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

Great post rominl

I must say that I agree with you on all fronts. As I mentioned in my post above, I really do think that Lexus will perfect their new generation of interior materials if they haven't already. After using the same interior materials for years and years, it's understandable IMO if it might take a year or two to make things right with a new blend of plastic, rubber, etc.

That said, there is a certain firmness to the new Lexus interiors that I really like over previous generations. Sometimes, especially in heat, the dashes and doors of some of the older models were a little "soft" and had a good bit of give on them. The new dashboards seem thick and substantial, and I do like it. The IS and ES have a dash material with a much finer grain and rubbery feel than do the GS and LS, and I do hope they make some changes to those models which give them a more substantial feel.

Looking at the competition, I really see no bad cars but what it really comes down to a matter of taste even though in areas that arent objective like quality and fit and finish, I do see Lexus as a step ahead.

BMW interiors to me, seem much colder and less user friendly than Lexus. I do love their thicker leather as opposed to Lexus which seems much softer, but also thinner. Past that though, I do not care for their flat, upright dashboards, concentrated HVAC and radio buttons, and stiff seats. iDrive is another huge annoyance.

Mercedes interiors have taken the most notable slide to me, and they are neither as Germanic and stoic as BMW or as plush and decadent as Lexus. I also don't care for their new design as pioneered in the S class and CL with a large covered hump in the dash to house the navigation screen, next to the instrument cluster. For some reason, to me, it screams "minivan"! The dash does not look elegant or ergonomically pleasing, even if it is built with great materials.

Audi's cabins are known as being right there with Lexus, but lately I am not so sure. The last time I sat in an S5 parts of the dash and doors felt very hollow and tinny. I also do not care much for the squared off center console and hard edges, though I do think that for the most part, their cars are beautifully and well built.

Jag...I need to see more of their new theme before I make any calls. That said, I think I may be one of the only people who does not care for what they have done. It looks very flat and one dimensional to me, and I am also one for more traditional luxury so their pop up gear selector and other goodies don't really appeal to me.

Cadillac has certainly gotten better with the CTS, and I like some of the touches they included with the car like the lighting. Some of the buttons and ***** are still GM corporate parts bin, but an overall improvement for sure. I need to see more to judge their character and quality. Infiniti I do really like, specially the M. It's a feel that is much like Lexus but a little harder as opposed to the Lexus feel of luxury. Acura I find to be well built, but lacking in any definition and character.

I like Lexus' tendency towards waterfall dashes with rich looking woods and soft, supple leather. The buttons always seem well placed and the right size, the shifters always notch into place with a feel of precision, the steering wheel always articulates with a fluid and smooth feel, and they are really good with the details. Little bits of chrome in the right places, ambient lighting, the most opulent and upscale gauges in the industry, and a level of plushness and comfort that is really unparalleled. The way that the buttons spring back once you press them, compartment doors slide into seclusion, and the thud of the doors. It all just seems so well thought out and planned. Nothing else has quite hit me like that.

For some reason, to me, this picture sums it up perfectly.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

wow, i am glad that you guys like my long boring post

Och, yup you touched some of the design styling that i tried to avoid since it can really go both ways (unlike quality where if it rattles, it rattles). but while we are at it, in terms of design i am personally more favorable on the leather design of the newer lexus. the absence of wrinkling actually gives me more of a contempt and smoothness feeling. to be honest i have never been a fan of the wrinkling on my gs400 and sc430, always though my leather was old exterior styling, i do feel the es350 loses a bit presence, but i think the new IS and LS are much sharper. the GS is a bit blah though

on the quality part, while i am more than confident that lexus has the capability to improve and possible achieve their old standard, i personally blame it on their aggressive schedule.

last time i saw the "drop" on quality was on the 98 GS400, where it was so innovative, but at the same time quite some cars experience noise and rattling issues.

however, apparently lexus was very aware of that, and especially on the 01 gs facelift, they improved that dramatically. i still think the 01-05 gs are smoother and quieter than the 98-00. not to mention the ls430 that came out in 2001, which was a completely new design, and that car has been super solid since day 1. another great example is the sc430, came out in 2001 as 2002 model. it was lexus first attempt on convertible, a lot of variables and challenges. but the end result was a huge success, the lexus with the least problems, and at the same time one of the quietest made.

those were the glory time i talked about. fast forward to recent years, lexus redesigned the IS, GS, and LS in 3 yrs, LF-A in the work, new LX is out this year, with new RX probably next year and also SC. that's a lot of changes, and their schedule seems to have compromised on the quality. that was admitted by toyota/lexus executives as well.

i just hope they will (and apparently they are already) gather themselves and put them back on the quality roadmap, more important than redesign. quality and value were what put lexus on the map years ago, they can't afford to lose any of them

ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

Can't agree with that statement. I hated Lexus with a passion due to their exterior styling before the L-Finesse design but the new GS, LS and especially the IS totally changed my view toward the brand.

LexFather

Wow Henry and MP, great posts. If you don't mind I would like to throw in my 2 cents.
1. People accustomed to the "first gens" of Lexus (say 89-05) were, well spoiled in the interior/fit and finish department. Lexus had to really go above and beyond to PENETRATE the market at the time as it was a new brand. My 1992 ES 300 with 250k miles still is solid amazingly. Fit and finish is superb to this day. Lexus knew to be taken serious, they had to go above and beyond with interiors.
2. This means when the 2nd gen of Lexus came "06 GS and new models" well, for the past 15 years we were used to the old Lexus. Its hard to adjust to the "NEW" Lexus sometimes, from looks to materials etc. So I think a lot of us are biased to the older cars as our experience with them was incredible. You will notice how much more sculpted and designed the new LExus interiors are to the old, staid ones. No comparison!
3. With this new Lexus, that also means bigger tires, tighter suspensions, aka. MORE SPORT. This does mean MORE RATTLES and more vibrations and more feedback. I think many people forget that. Up until 1998, the biggest wheel a Lexus had was a cushy 16" wheel. The GS came with low profile 45 series 17" wheels/tires as an option, our first taste of more vibration. Thing is that GS was at the time the sportiest Lexus ever. Fast forward to today and Lexus now offers 19" wheels and continues to offer tighter suspensions. To their credit, they have managed to make a pretty good balance of the old vs new Lexus. Lexus has stated they want to keep their traditional customer happy while pursing new avenues.
3. Lexus is not immune to cutting costs and surely some decisions were based on saving money. This is not a Lexus mantra but a business mantra.
4. Lexus sells more cars than anyone in America and nearly 5 times as much than in 1990. So from a NUMBERS perspective, you will simply have MORE cars with issues and MORE people complaining. More cars sold=more of a chance of issues. Again, I think we forget that. This is not the same Lexus selling 150k-200k vehicles a year. 330k+ last year, unheard of in the luxury arena.
5. I think Lexus reputation can hurt them sometimes. You see Lexus NEVER HAS SAID they are perfect. However, you have thousands of people that swear by them. Word of mouth to the general public=Lexus means no problems. Mind you, this is NOT true, but I think the perception sometimes is a Lexus car is a complete trouble free experience. So forbid that **** customer buys a Lexus b/c "they heard" it was perfect and they find out it is not, well they seem to raise hell. You also have people that are very biased to Germans and for whatever reason bought a Lexus and if one problem happens they go about how its "Toyota crap" and "they knew it was crap before they bought it" which goes into a fallacy.
6. With internet forums, it allows people to talk about their cars. This also allows vocal people to VENT off at their brand or car when problems arise, no matter how big or small. You have to filter what you read to come to an accurate conclusion.

Overall with industry experts and people in car forums, Audi and Lexus are regarded as OVERALL the best you can buy. Some marques do have a good interior here and there but OVERALL the brand lacks. The LS is regarded by some to be the finest car you can buy regardless of price, extremely high praise.

marshmallo

The most amazing thing about the interior of my 3GS is that after almost 3
years, it looks almost new.

Quality downhill? The finish perhaps - which caused aggravating rattles in
the first and second year models - but the materials are still first rate, IMHO.

dunnojack

i hate the wrinkled leather-at-the-seems look.

honda still uses it


when the leather gets worn out, those wrinkles are the first to look ugly

the modern leather sofa hardly has a wrinkle. it's more 'pillowy'

IS350jet

^^ It's called "puckering". I love the look, myself. Looks very ....posh.

IS350jet

Great post, Mike, couldn't have said it better myself.