IL Insider: Next-Generation Lexus SC?
07-13-08, 10:24 AM
#46
Moderator
The Avalon will always provide more passenger room than the Camry. And just because of that, it's necessary to keep it.
Now, the Accord and Altima have grown to almost Avalon-like proportions, but they never really compete with the Avalon.
The only reason why Toyota will create a Camry-L instead of the Avalon is to maintain the #1 sedan sales ranking, and that seems a bit too fickle.
The Camry will have three variants by next year: the Camry sedan, the Solara coupe, and the Venza crossover. The Avalon can be simplified as the Camry limo/long-wheelbase, but it just seems too rudimentary to combine it.
Toyota should keep the Avalon. Let it compete with other full size sedans, and not downgrate it to compete with midsize models.
Now, the Accord and Altima have grown to almost Avalon-like proportions, but they never really compete with the Avalon.
The only reason why Toyota will create a Camry-L instead of the Avalon is to maintain the #1 sedan sales ranking, and that seems a bit too fickle.
The Camry will have three variants by next year: the Camry sedan, the Solara coupe, and the Venza crossover. The Avalon can be simplified as the Camry limo/long-wheelbase, but it just seems too rudimentary to combine it.
Toyota should keep the Avalon. Let it compete with other full size sedans, and not downgrate it to compete with midsize models.
Avalon, Camry, Corolla, Yaris
Maxima, Altima, Sentra, Versa
Accord, Civic, Fit
Last edited by Trexus; 07-13-08 at 11:08 AM.
07-13-08, 10:58 AM
#47
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Good move. But perhaps they should have made room for the LF-A by making the SC a smaller, Z4/SLK size roadster.
07-13-08, 11:08 AM
#48
I don't really care. Although I have been one that wanted to see Lexus come out with more coupes, if they kept it a convertible (Even a hard top convertible) it does nothing for me so I don't care if they dump it or not. I owned a 93 SC400 so I do like the SC, just not in convertible form.
07-13-08, 11:49 AM
#49
A lot of you are forgetting what the SC is about. It's a luxury tourer, nothing more. It's not supposed to be taken to the track and burned hard. Now to please the SC300 fans, there will be an IS coupe, it's redundant to have a SC350 and an IS350 coupe, except one will be far less sporty and more luxurious. If an IS-F coupe appears it will NOT do anything to SC sales. The IS-F is targeted as a performance compact sedan (remember the SC is a luxury cruiser). The M3 probably destroys the 650 in every way but you don't see BMW killing the 6 series now do you? However they did kill off the 6 series 6 cylinder models just like Lexus did except Lexus did it much earlier as they understand that two 6 cylinder coupe models is redundant. A V8 only model SC is perfectly acceptable. Fuel economy, at this price point it's not that big of a deal. They could always go hybrid as well. For those of you who complain about the SC not being sporty enough. F-sport and F. Done.
The SC will remain as a luxury coupe model based upon the GS. Some people prefer the styling of a long coupe. I do, that's why I think the SC430 sucks, if it was a longer convertible than I might like it. If I want a long coupe why would I settle for an IS-F or IS350 coupe?
As for the statement that the LF-A will replace the SC. No chance in hell. Think of the gap between an IS coupe and an LF-A? You really don't think there's a market for people who don't make enough to buy a 100k+ car but also don't want a entry level luxury coupe? The LF-A is also short, smaller than a 911. There's plenty of room for three coupes in the lineup.
The SC will remain as a luxury coupe model based upon the GS. Some people prefer the styling of a long coupe. I do, that's why I think the SC430 sucks, if it was a longer convertible than I might like it. If I want a long coupe why would I settle for an IS-F or IS350 coupe?
As for the statement that the LF-A will replace the SC. No chance in hell. Think of the gap between an IS coupe and an LF-A? You really don't think there's a market for people who don't make enough to buy a 100k+ car but also don't want a entry level luxury coupe? The LF-A is also short, smaller than a 911. There's plenty of room for three coupes in the lineup.
07-13-08, 12:14 PM
#50
Lexus Fanatic
There is no way of knowing if this is true or not because it is just "insider" information and really just rumors. I doubt Toyota would cancel a high end coupe like the Lexus SC but they may change what it is in the future as the current one is not selling well and not all that well received. If Toyota is complaining about lack of sales then that is entirely their fault for not updating it and keeping it relatively the same as when it came out. The competition has surpassed it and it is no longer relevant nor is it really ever compared or mentioned in auto mags anymore. It should have been heavily updated a long time ago and more versions offered. Same thing happened with the NSX, they let it linger way too long without any major updates and sales stagnated, now unfortunately we may not get another mid engine NSX.
Even if you discount not updating the SC you still have to deal with that the new one was very disappointing to many compared to the original. The original was a very good looking 2 door coupe with a cramped rear seat that did everything pretty well. It had a big following and was not too expensive either and could be had in 6 or 8 cylinder form. The new one unfortunately turned into a pretty odd looking overpriced boulevard cruiser with a completely useless rear seat to make room for a hard top convertable that most were not asking for. It became more of a chick car and something a "dentist wife" would cruise around and shop in instead of what the original SC was. There was no 6 cylinder version which made up the bulk of the sales of the original SC and it was no longer sporty or really good looking and it was too expensive. I am not saying it is a terrible car though because it is pretty nice and has some good angles but to most it was a huge disappointment compared to the original and Toyota has not updated which has led to poor sales and it being overlooked now.
Toyota should not just give up on the SC as all they need to do is return to the original formula which made the first one a hit, the original GS sold poorly so they changed and improved it and it sold better and the original IS did not do well and they changed it so that it now does better, they just need to change and improve the SC and keep updating it instead of letting it linger.
I think the next SC may be a little bigger and hopefully drop the hard top convertable only theme for a somewhat more usable rear seat and go back to a coupe like the original with a convertable option. They will either make it a good deal bigger to compete with the Mercedes CL or make it GS sized to compete with the 6 series, Jaq XK, Merc SL/CLK and it will cost a bit less then the current one. With gas prices the way they are I think they will bring back a 6 cylinder version as the current 3.5l 306hp engine has plenty of power for a car in that class.
Even if you discount not updating the SC you still have to deal with that the new one was very disappointing to many compared to the original. The original was a very good looking 2 door coupe with a cramped rear seat that did everything pretty well. It had a big following and was not too expensive either and could be had in 6 or 8 cylinder form. The new one unfortunately turned into a pretty odd looking overpriced boulevard cruiser with a completely useless rear seat to make room for a hard top convertable that most were not asking for. It became more of a chick car and something a "dentist wife" would cruise around and shop in instead of what the original SC was. There was no 6 cylinder version which made up the bulk of the sales of the original SC and it was no longer sporty or really good looking and it was too expensive. I am not saying it is a terrible car though because it is pretty nice and has some good angles but to most it was a huge disappointment compared to the original and Toyota has not updated which has led to poor sales and it being overlooked now.
Toyota should not just give up on the SC as all they need to do is return to the original formula which made the first one a hit, the original GS sold poorly so they changed and improved it and it sold better and the original IS did not do well and they changed it so that it now does better, they just need to change and improve the SC and keep updating it instead of letting it linger.
I think the next SC may be a little bigger and hopefully drop the hard top convertable only theme for a somewhat more usable rear seat and go back to a coupe like the original with a convertable option. They will either make it a good deal bigger to compete with the Mercedes CL or make it GS sized to compete with the 6 series, Jaq XK, Merc SL/CLK and it will cost a bit less then the current one. With gas prices the way they are I think they will bring back a 6 cylinder version as the current 3.5l 306hp engine has plenty of power for a car in that class.
07-13-08, 01:10 PM
#51
True.
Another problem with the Avalon is its close pricing proximity to the ES350 when comparably equipped.
My parents bought an ES350 a year ago, and when my brother wanted it, they ordered an Avalon to take its place. And there was only a $5k difference when loaded with the same amenities...
Another problem with the Avalon is its close pricing proximity to the ES350 when comparably equipped.
My parents bought an ES350 a year ago, and when my brother wanted it, they ordered an Avalon to take its place. And there was only a $5k difference when loaded with the same amenities...
The only thing is that I can't really figure out where Toyota can go with the Avalon. Maybe offer it in RWD like the Cressida/Mark X??
07-13-08, 01:36 PM
#52
Lexus Champion
mmhmm, esp. in Canada after the recent price drop. The ES350 starts at $39,900. The Avalon XLS is $39,840. The ES350 tops out at $50,650 with the UL Package. With just nav, it's $48,000. The Avalon w/ nav costs $46,635.
The only thing is that I can't really figure out where Toyota can go with the Avalon. Maybe offer it in RWD like the Cressida/Mark X??
The only thing is that I can't really figure out where Toyota can go with the Avalon. Maybe offer it in RWD like the Cressida/Mark X??
The last time I looked, Avalon had an older (and I'm guessing loyal) buyer demographic vs. the ES. The ES is up there too but not quite as high.
As I mentioned in a previous post, in '07 73k Avalons were sold and that was down from 89k in '06. Even though sales have dropped, that's a lot of cars for Toyota to walk away from, even if some former Avalon buyers went to ES350 and Camry XLS.
07-13-08, 02:46 PM
#53
Moderator
O.K. I have said it before, and this is what I think will happen:
a) The SC430 will be discontinued. For the same power (approx 300hp), the IS350 coupe/convertible will take its place. Now, it may not be as luxurious, but it provides much more technology, sport, and gas efficiency for a lot less money.
b) An SC460, as much as we would love to have Lexus create one, would no longer profitable and plausible. Because of a bad economy, high gas prices, and "middle kid syndrome" between the IS c/c and LF-A; the SC460 will not be profitable, especially if it is made as a soft-tourer, while the IS c/c and LF-A are more performance oriented. It would be more plausible to create an ES350 coupe (*gasp*) such that of the Solara if Lexus wants to create a soft-touring coupe...
c) The LF-A would be the halo coupe (duh!). I have always considered the LF-A as the next SC-F, but since the SC460 is unlikely, the LF-A will be original. Granted, Lexus can still call the LF-A the SC-F or the SC500, but we won't know what Lexus has planned for it. It can retain the SC heritage, or go completely independent and have a unique moniker.
a) The SC430 will be discontinued. For the same power (approx 300hp), the IS350 coupe/convertible will take its place. Now, it may not be as luxurious, but it provides much more technology, sport, and gas efficiency for a lot less money.
b) An SC460, as much as we would love to have Lexus create one, would no longer profitable and plausible. Because of a bad economy, high gas prices, and "middle kid syndrome" between the IS c/c and LF-A; the SC460 will not be profitable, especially if it is made as a soft-tourer, while the IS c/c and LF-A are more performance oriented. It would be more plausible to create an ES350 coupe (*gasp*) such that of the Solara if Lexus wants to create a soft-touring coupe...
c) The LF-A would be the halo coupe (duh!). I have always considered the LF-A as the next SC-F, but since the SC460 is unlikely, the LF-A will be original. Granted, Lexus can still call the LF-A the SC-F or the SC500, but we won't know what Lexus has planned for it. It can retain the SC heritage, or go completely independent and have a unique moniker.
b) The SC is a low volume seller. That's why the price for an SC is high which equates to a higher profit margin. If the SC was a high volume seller then the profit margin would be lower. The LF-A is going to be a really low volume seller so there is no way the LF-A will take over the SC model. If Lexus brought out the SC 460 it would fill the mid-level class. IS 250/350 V6 coupes as entry level, SC 460 V8 as mid-level and the LF-A V10 as the top-of-the line exotic sports car.
c) I totally agree with the LF-A will be original but how can you call it original if Lexus decides to call it the SC-F? Isn't that kinda ironic? The SC has been around and has it's own heritage. Calling the LF-A an SC-F would be taking that heritage away...
I'd like to think that in my own mind and in my own world Lexus will update the SC 430 into the SC 460 or that Lexus will put the SC on a temporary hiatus and when the economy is doing much better bring back the SC...
Some people understand the SC and there are a few that do not...
Last edited by Trexus; 07-13-08 at 02:52 PM.
07-14-08, 05:45 AM
#56
Camry Avalon
07-14-08, 07:42 AM
#58
This is terrible news if true. The coupe market is flourishing once again. In addition, Lexus needs an influx of new models. I am getting tired of seeing the same commercials with the same vehicle models every year. The various Lexus sales event ads that are aired in NYC are more than 4 years old lol.
Bring back the classic lines of the first gen SC Lexus!
Bring back the classic lines of the first gen SC Lexus!
07-14-08, 07:48 AM
#59
Lexus Champion
Are they really surprised that SC sales are so low??
Look what else you can buy for the almost 70 grand they want for the SC!!
The 2009 SC will be what, the 8th year of the current gen SC, unchanged... a car built on the 2nd gen GS chassis which dates back to the 1997 calendar year... 11 years ago. By today's standards it's not a very rigid chassis for a convertible... over bumps there are just way too many shakes, shimmies, and undulations for a vehicle sold as new for 70k, and to top it off its acceleration and handling performance are also bottom of the class. Oh its back seat is completely useless too.
So what does it have going for it? Stellar reliability and good build quality. That's just not enough to attract many buyers in this price range, IMO. Though it should make for a good used car buy.
I think Lexus shouldn't discontinue the SC... it's an important part of the lineup. They just need to realize the reason it's not selling well anymore is that the SC wasn't even necessarily a class-leading car when it first came out in many ways... it's bottom of the barrel these days by most convertible coupe standards.
Look what else you can buy for the almost 70 grand they want for the SC!!
The 2009 SC will be what, the 8th year of the current gen SC, unchanged... a car built on the 2nd gen GS chassis which dates back to the 1997 calendar year... 11 years ago. By today's standards it's not a very rigid chassis for a convertible... over bumps there are just way too many shakes, shimmies, and undulations for a vehicle sold as new for 70k, and to top it off its acceleration and handling performance are also bottom of the class. Oh its back seat is completely useless too.
So what does it have going for it? Stellar reliability and good build quality. That's just not enough to attract many buyers in this price range, IMO. Though it should make for a good used car buy.
I think Lexus shouldn't discontinue the SC... it's an important part of the lineup. They just need to realize the reason it's not selling well anymore is that the SC wasn't even necessarily a class-leading car when it first came out in many ways... it's bottom of the barrel these days by most convertible coupe standards.
07-14-08, 08:58 AM
#60
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I think Lexus shouldn't discontinue the SC... it's an important part of the lineup.
One can by a new Nissan Maxima which is better performing and has just as much luxury as the GS, IS or ES for less. Same goes for Acura....
Toyota really needs to rethink the luxury car market as simple nice luxury is not enough anymore...Lexus seriously needs some sport in there luxury.