Genesis 4.6 vs GS460 vs 300c vs E550
08-25-08, 02:01 PM
#31
Notice that MT's observed fuel economy for the Genesis V8 was 22.1 mpg, which is pretty damn good for a V8 in a mag test where they're flooring the hell out of it.
Of course, the usual suspects will only refer to the 17.6 it got in the Edmunds comparo and preach that as the gospel.
Of course, the usual suspects will only refer to the 17.6 it got in the Edmunds comparo and preach that as the gospel.
22 mpg is crazy mpg for all of these cars. This is perfect highway mileage at 80 mpg, not mpg for testing accelerating tests. I have GS350, I know what kind of fuel it spends.
08-25-08, 02:18 PM
#32
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Lexus better make the 4GS really something. The Genesis is a segment buster, period.
Hyundai is making Acura look like Kia (though even Kia has a V-8) right now. Amazing we are comparing a HYUNDAI with the GS 460 and E550 instead of an Acura. I cannot believe how far Hyundai has come and how lackluster Acura has stayed.
DaShocker mentions the GS winning Import COTY in 1998. Well 10 years later, the GS is not a segment leader and now has to watch for Hyundais. Amazing how much has changed!!!
Hyundai is making Acura look like Kia (though even Kia has a V-8) right now. Amazing we are comparing a HYUNDAI with the GS 460 and E550 instead of an Acura. I cannot believe how far Hyundai has come and how lackluster Acura has stayed.
DaShocker mentions the GS winning Import COTY in 1998. Well 10 years later, the GS is not a segment leader and now has to watch for Hyundais. Amazing how much has changed!!!
08-25-08, 02:18 PM
#33
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Hyundai didn't make a separate luxury brand because the Genesis is a Hyundai and not a luxury brand?
For what its worth..a Lexus is actually a Toyota. The very first LS400 used windshields with the stamping "Toyota glass" also..I have pics of the new LX570 without the rear bumper and what does it say? It says "Toyota"
08-25-08, 02:20 PM
#34
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08-25-08, 02:27 PM
#35
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pagemaster, I am going to ask you tone down your responses b/c it incites arguing and flaming.
We all can talk in a mature matter about a heated debate without trying to make people feel simple.
You are 100% wrong the first Lexus was just a Toyota and I've said this before. It had Toyota stamping on the glass b/c it was sold as a Toyota in Japan. It was designed and built as a Lexus from the ground up. The LS was not a Cressida rebadge in anyway shape or form. Are Audi's, VWs? No they are not, but they share parts.
While the Genesis is very formidable competition, I simply do not see ANYONE running back to the drawing board like how the competition did when Lexus came with the LS.
We all can talk in a mature matter about a heated debate without trying to make people feel simple.
You are 100% wrong the first Lexus was just a Toyota and I've said this before. It had Toyota stamping on the glass b/c it was sold as a Toyota in Japan. It was designed and built as a Lexus from the ground up. The LS was not a Cressida rebadge in anyway shape or form. Are Audi's, VWs? No they are not, but they share parts.
While the Genesis is very formidable competition, I simply do not see ANYONE running back to the drawing board like how the competition did when Lexus came with the LS.
08-25-08, 02:43 PM
#36
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pagemaster, I am going to ask you tone down your responses b/c it incites arguing and flaming.
We all can talk in a mature matter about a heated debate without trying to make people feel simple.
You are 100% wrong the first Lexus was just a Toyota and I've said this before. It had Toyota stamping on the glass b/c it was sold as a Toyota in Japan. It was designed and built as a Lexus from the ground up. The LS was not a Cressida rebadge in anyway shape or form. Are Audi's, VWs? No they are not, but they share parts.
While the Genesis is very formidable competition, I simply do not see ANYONE running back to the drawing board like how the competition did when Lexus came with the LS.
We all can talk in a mature matter about a heated debate without trying to make people feel simple.
You are 100% wrong the first Lexus was just a Toyota and I've said this before. It had Toyota stamping on the glass b/c it was sold as a Toyota in Japan. It was designed and built as a Lexus from the ground up. The LS was not a Cressida rebadge in anyway shape or form. Are Audi's, VWs? No they are not, but they share parts.
While the Genesis is very formidable competition, I simply do not see ANYONE running back to the drawing board like how the competition did when Lexus came with the LS.
Remember when the Veracruz came out and was compared everywhere to the RX? Here are the sales year-to-date thru July on each, in a soft new car market - Especially for SUV's: RX = 49,611 and Veracruz = 7,048.
I think Genesis will find its niche, but isn't going to put any of its compettion out of business. It might even make the other guys better.
08-25-08, 02:49 PM
#37
I feel as though I should clarify my stance on the Genesis, not just in this article, but on the car as a whole.
To line the car up with the E550 and GS460 and say, "The Hyundai could run in this league...they have put together an impressive car," is permissible IMO, because it's true. Hyundai created a RWD sedan with engines that are competitive (on paper) and lots of luxury features.
However, because it has a navigation system, a Lexicon sound system, and leather dash doesn't mean that it is a luxury car.
A luxurious car? Yes. A luxury car? No.
First class sales experience? No.
First class service? No.
Class leading technology and/or features? No.
Upscale dealerships with luxury conveniences and touches? No.
Brand Equity? No.
Prestige? No.
Passion? No.
Aspirational? No.
Not a luxury car.
Luxury cars don't sell on the premise of value. People buy Camrys, Civics, and Geneses because of VALUE. Luxury cars sell on a philosophy of heritage, meticulous attention to detail, performance (though this is open to interpretation), utmost quality, first rate customer service throughout the ownership experience, advanced technology and safety, engineering, and much more.
It takes time, effort, failure, resources, dedication and experience to build a truly first rate luxury car. BMW is the first name in performance, Mercedes in technology, and Lexus in luxury. Each of these three brands has perfected it's philosophy to a point where they don't really have anything else to prove. They don't owe anyone anything because their cars, their company, their dealerships, and their philosophy is proven- And it has been proven over and over for years and years.
In the context of the Genesis, Hyundai is now where Lexus was once, and it took them less than ten years to really penetrate the upper echelons of the luxury car market. They did it with impeccable dealers, dedicated and first rate products, fantastic advertising, and absolutely meticulous attention to detail and luxury. As the Lexus product line has expanded they have certainly made their mistakes but they've also grown and matured into the tier 1 brand they are today. Keyword there being "matured". If anything, I think that cars like the Genesis will only make Lexus stronger- especially products like the next GS and ES. To think that Lexus isn't at least a little threatened by this car is ignorant, especially when Hyundai took a page straight out of the Toyota playbook. This is a statement to the luxury car market that your badges and heritage aren't all that you can count on, because the Genesis is a lot of car for the money.
All in all, the Genesis is really a great value because it has a lot of the things that you might like about a Lexus or Mercedes but costs a lot less. However, people who are shopping at a Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW dealership frankly aren't concerned with value because you can get a good number of the features in an ES 350 or GS 460 in a Camry XLE. It's about buying into something that isn't necessarily quantifiable on paper, and it's very clear that is what Hyundai has done. Built a car that, on paper, is very impressive. If anyone thinks the Genesis isn't at least a similar jumping off point to what the LS was for Lexus, then you're wrong. Until they can restructure their brand to move just beyond the product and work in the rest of the details, the Genesis will forever be a luxurious car, not a luxury car.
Sidenote:
I would like to say that the Edmunds article noted that they felt like the Tau V8 was somewhat anemic and felt more like 320hp than 375, and if anything it seems like these numbers from MT confirm that. I would like to point out that the GS 460 was .1 second slower to 60 than the Genesis but faster through the quarter mile with 33 less horsepower, and both cars are within just a few pounds of each other. That doesn't seem to dictate a 33hp advantage to me.
To line the car up with the E550 and GS460 and say, "The Hyundai could run in this league...they have put together an impressive car," is permissible IMO, because it's true. Hyundai created a RWD sedan with engines that are competitive (on paper) and lots of luxury features.
However, because it has a navigation system, a Lexicon sound system, and leather dash doesn't mean that it is a luxury car.
A luxurious car? Yes. A luxury car? No.
First class sales experience? No.
First class service? No.
Class leading technology and/or features? No.
Upscale dealerships with luxury conveniences and touches? No.
Brand Equity? No.
Prestige? No.
Passion? No.
Aspirational? No.
Not a luxury car.
Luxury cars don't sell on the premise of value. People buy Camrys, Civics, and Geneses because of VALUE. Luxury cars sell on a philosophy of heritage, meticulous attention to detail, performance (though this is open to interpretation), utmost quality, first rate customer service throughout the ownership experience, advanced technology and safety, engineering, and much more.
It takes time, effort, failure, resources, dedication and experience to build a truly first rate luxury car. BMW is the first name in performance, Mercedes in technology, and Lexus in luxury. Each of these three brands has perfected it's philosophy to a point where they don't really have anything else to prove. They don't owe anyone anything because their cars, their company, their dealerships, and their philosophy is proven- And it has been proven over and over for years and years.
In the context of the Genesis, Hyundai is now where Lexus was once, and it took them less than ten years to really penetrate the upper echelons of the luxury car market. They did it with impeccable dealers, dedicated and first rate products, fantastic advertising, and absolutely meticulous attention to detail and luxury. As the Lexus product line has expanded they have certainly made their mistakes but they've also grown and matured into the tier 1 brand they are today. Keyword there being "matured". If anything, I think that cars like the Genesis will only make Lexus stronger- especially products like the next GS and ES. To think that Lexus isn't at least a little threatened by this car is ignorant, especially when Hyundai took a page straight out of the Toyota playbook. This is a statement to the luxury car market that your badges and heritage aren't all that you can count on, because the Genesis is a lot of car for the money.
All in all, the Genesis is really a great value because it has a lot of the things that you might like about a Lexus or Mercedes but costs a lot less. However, people who are shopping at a Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW dealership frankly aren't concerned with value because you can get a good number of the features in an ES 350 or GS 460 in a Camry XLE. It's about buying into something that isn't necessarily quantifiable on paper, and it's very clear that is what Hyundai has done. Built a car that, on paper, is very impressive. If anyone thinks the Genesis isn't at least a similar jumping off point to what the LS was for Lexus, then you're wrong. Until they can restructure their brand to move just beyond the product and work in the rest of the details, the Genesis will forever be a luxurious car, not a luxury car.
Sidenote:
I would like to say that the Edmunds article noted that they felt like the Tau V8 was somewhat anemic and felt more like 320hp than 375, and if anything it seems like these numbers from MT confirm that. I would like to point out that the GS 460 was .1 second slower to 60 than the Genesis but faster through the quarter mile with 33 less horsepower, and both cars are within just a few pounds of each other. That doesn't seem to dictate a 33hp advantage to me.
Last edited by MPLexus301; 08-25-08 at 02:54 PM.
08-25-08, 03:01 PM
#38
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Each of these three brands has perfected it's philosophy to a point where they don't really have anything else to prove. They don't owe anyone anything because their cars, their company, their dealerships, and their philosophy is proven- And it has been proven over and over for years and years.
They don't owe anyone anything
08-25-08, 03:07 PM
#39
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I feel as though I should clarify my stance on the Genesis, not just in this article, but on the car as a whole.
To line the car up with the E550 and GS460 and say, "The Hyundai could run in this league...they have put together an impressive car," is permissible IMO, because it's true. Hyundai created a RWD sedan with engines that are competitive (on paper) and lots of luxury features.
However, because it has a navigation system, a Lexicon sound system, and leather dash doesn't mean that it is a luxury car.
A luxurious car? Yes. A luxury car? No.
First class sales experience? No.
First class service? No.
Class leading technology and/or features? No.
Upscale dealerships with luxury conveniences and touches? No.
Brand Equity? No.
Prestige? No.
Passion? No.
Aspirational? No.
Not a luxury car.
Luxury cars don't sell on the premise of value. People buy Camrys, Civics, and Geneses because of VALUE. Luxury cars sell on a philosophy of heritage, meticulous attention to detail, performance (though this is open to interpretation), utmost quality, first rate customer service throughout the ownership experience, advanced technology and safety, engineering, and much more.
It takes time, effort, failure, resources, dedication and experience to build a truly first rate luxury car. BMW is the first name in performance, Mercedes in technology, and Lexus in luxury. Each of these three brands has perfected it's philosophy to a point where they don't really have anything else to prove. They don't owe anyone anything because their cars, their company, their dealerships, and their philosophy is proven- And it has been proven over and over for years and years.
In the context of the Genesis, Hyundai is now where Lexus was once, and it took them less than ten years to really penetrate the upper echelons of the luxury car market. They did it with impeccable dealers, dedicated and first rate products, fantastic advertising, and absolutely meticulous attention to detail and luxury. As the Lexus product line has expanded they have certainly made their mistakes but they've also grown and matured into the tier 1 brand they are today. Keyword there being "matured". If anything, I think that cars like the Genesis will only make Lexus stronger- especially products like the next GS and ES. To think that Lexus isn't at least a little threatened by this car is ignorant, especially when Hyundai took a page straight out of the Toyota playbook. This is a statement to the luxury car market that your badges and heritage aren't all that you can count on, because the Genesis is a lot of car for the money.
All in all, the Genesis is really a great value because it has a lot of the things that you might like about a Lexus or Mercedes but costs a lot less. However, people who are shopping at a Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW dealership frankly aren't concerned with value because you can get a good number of the features in an ES 350 or GS 460 in a Camry XLE. It's about buying into something that isn't necessarily quantifiable on paper, and it's very clear that is what Hyundai has done. Built a car that, on paper, is very impressive. If anyone thinks the Genesis isn't at least a similar jumping off point to what the LS was for Lexus, then you're wrong. Until they can restructure their brand to move just beyond the product and work in the rest of the details, the Genesis will forever be a luxurious car, not a luxury car.
Sidenote:
I would like to say that the Edmunds article noted that they felt like the Tau V8 was somewhat anemic and felt more like 320hp than 375, and if anything it seems like these numbers from MT confirm that. I would like to point out that the GS 460 was .1 second slower to 60 than the Genesis but faster through the quarter mile with 33 less horsepower, and both cars are within just a few pounds of each other. That doesn't seem to dictate a 33hp advantage to me.
To line the car up with the E550 and GS460 and say, "The Hyundai could run in this league...they have put together an impressive car," is permissible IMO, because it's true. Hyundai created a RWD sedan with engines that are competitive (on paper) and lots of luxury features.
However, because it has a navigation system, a Lexicon sound system, and leather dash doesn't mean that it is a luxury car.
A luxurious car? Yes. A luxury car? No.
First class sales experience? No.
First class service? No.
Class leading technology and/or features? No.
Upscale dealerships with luxury conveniences and touches? No.
Brand Equity? No.
Prestige? No.
Passion? No.
Aspirational? No.
Not a luxury car.
Luxury cars don't sell on the premise of value. People buy Camrys, Civics, and Geneses because of VALUE. Luxury cars sell on a philosophy of heritage, meticulous attention to detail, performance (though this is open to interpretation), utmost quality, first rate customer service throughout the ownership experience, advanced technology and safety, engineering, and much more.
It takes time, effort, failure, resources, dedication and experience to build a truly first rate luxury car. BMW is the first name in performance, Mercedes in technology, and Lexus in luxury. Each of these three brands has perfected it's philosophy to a point where they don't really have anything else to prove. They don't owe anyone anything because their cars, their company, their dealerships, and their philosophy is proven- And it has been proven over and over for years and years.
In the context of the Genesis, Hyundai is now where Lexus was once, and it took them less than ten years to really penetrate the upper echelons of the luxury car market. They did it with impeccable dealers, dedicated and first rate products, fantastic advertising, and absolutely meticulous attention to detail and luxury. As the Lexus product line has expanded they have certainly made their mistakes but they've also grown and matured into the tier 1 brand they are today. Keyword there being "matured". If anything, I think that cars like the Genesis will only make Lexus stronger- especially products like the next GS and ES. To think that Lexus isn't at least a little threatened by this car is ignorant, especially when Hyundai took a page straight out of the Toyota playbook. This is a statement to the luxury car market that your badges and heritage aren't all that you can count on, because the Genesis is a lot of car for the money.
All in all, the Genesis is really a great value because it has a lot of the things that you might like about a Lexus or Mercedes but costs a lot less. However, people who are shopping at a Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW dealership frankly aren't concerned with value because you can get a good number of the features in an ES 350 or GS 460 in a Camry XLE. It's about buying into something that isn't necessarily quantifiable on paper, and it's very clear that is what Hyundai has done. Built a car that, on paper, is very impressive. If anyone thinks the Genesis isn't at least a similar jumping off point to what the LS was for Lexus, then you're wrong. Until they can restructure their brand to move just beyond the product and work in the rest of the details, the Genesis will forever be a luxurious car, not a luxury car.
Sidenote:
I would like to say that the Edmunds article noted that they felt like the Tau V8 was somewhat anemic and felt more like 320hp than 375, and if anything it seems like these numbers from MT confirm that. I would like to point out that the GS 460 was .1 second slower to 60 than the Genesis but faster through the quarter mile with 33 less horsepower, and both cars are within just a few pounds of each other. That doesn't seem to dictate a 33hp advantage to me.
Very thought out, great post. I agree on most all points here.
08-25-08, 03:07 PM
#40
I agree with MPLexus regarding his point about the dealers. Hyundai has half of the luxury equation down. They've made a fantastic car that can run with the luxury big dogs. However, Hyundai dealers (at least in the US, I don't know about elsewhere) are nowhere near the quality of MB, BMW, Lexus, and Audi. If they could improve the dealer/service experience, I could see them being even more competitive with this car.
08-25-08, 03:08 PM
#41
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I would like to say that the Edmunds article noted that they felt like the Tau V8 was somewhat anemic and felt more like 320hp than 375, and if anything it seems like these numbers from MT confirm that. I would like to point out that the GS 460 was .1 second slower to 60 than the Genesis but faster through the quarter mile with 33 less horsepower, and both cars are within just a few pounds of each other. That doesn't seem to dictate a 33hp advantage to me.
Also, you're wrong about the GS460 being faster through the quarter mile (they both tied at 14 seconds). If anything, the Genesis was "faster" because it had a higher trap speed (103.7 mph vs. 102 mph).
Last edited by carguy101; 08-25-08 at 03:11 PM.
08-25-08, 03:14 PM
#42
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Hold up a minute here. This is exactly the type attitude, arrogance and greed that allowed Lexus to enter the luxury car market in the first and it is also why nameplates like the Cadillac is no longer number one in luxury sales.
Sure they do. They owe me a reason why they should have my money and right now I am not seeing it in anything they make...
Sure they do. They owe me a reason why they should have my money and right now I am not seeing it in anything they make...
Which means people line up to buy them no matter how bad the quality (Benz), the price (BMW), or how bland (Lexus).
Its not just Hyundai fighting this uphill battle, Tier II/III luxury brands do too.
It goes beyond Lexus, BMW, Benz. A S65 for instance is 180k, well people are more apt to buy the Bentley Sedan at that point just b/c of the "badge".
On the internet do you hear people say "oh, badge doesn't matter". Hogwash, or we all would indeed be driving Hyundias, Suzukis and Kias.
In business, building your BRAND is of VITAL importance, if not the most important aspect. Companies KILL for a brand that people will clamor too and DIE for a brand people despise.
08-25-08, 03:18 PM
#43
Come on, I know that you're knowledgeable enough about cars to keep from harping on this "33 hp" advantage thing. The Genesis does have an advantage in hp, but the GS460 has more torque, weighs 50 pounds less, and has 2 extra gears. All in all, the Genesis and GS460 straightline performance should be about equal (or very slight advantage to the Genesis), and this test seems to support that.
Also, you're wrong about the GS460 being faster through the quarter mile (they both tied at 14 seconds). If anything, the Genesis was "faster" because it had a higher trap speed (103.7 mph vs. 102 mph).
Also, you're wrong about the GS460 being faster through the quarter mile (they both tied at 14 seconds). If anything, the Genesis was "faster" because it had a higher trap speed (103.7 mph vs. 102 mph).
All in all, I'm not sure if I should be impressed with the "measly 342hp V8" in the GS or underwhelmed by the 375HP unit in the Genesis considering that they perform so similarly. Interesting though that the E550 with just 7 more HP is close to a second faster than the Hyundai 0-60 and continues to enjoy a considerable advantage in the quarter mile. Torque, FTW
08-25-08, 03:23 PM
#44
I agree with MPLexus regarding his point about the dealers. Hyundai has half of the luxury equation down. They've made a fantastic car that can run with the luxury big dogs. However, Hyundai dealers (at least in the US, I don't know about elsewhere) are nowhere near the quality of MB, BMW, Lexus, and Audi. If they could improve the dealer/service experience, I could see them being even more competitive with this car.
I will agree though that in order for the Genesis to gain the reputation and prestige acceptance of the masses they would have to up their dealership network experience. For car guys though its all about the car.
08-25-08, 03:23 PM
#45
Hold up a minute here. This is exactly the type attitude, arrogance and greed that allowed Lexus to enter the luxury car market in the first and it is also why nameplates like the Cadillac is no longer number one in luxury sales.
Sure they do. They owe me a reason why they should have my money and right now I am not seeing it in anything they make...
Sure they do. They owe me a reason why they should have my money and right now I am not seeing it in anything they make...
You can't be caught off guard, which makes me think that again, products like the Genesis will only be better for consumers as they drive up competition.