Genesis 4.6 vs GS460 vs 300c vs E550
08-26-08, 06:41 AM
#76
I think Lexus has a shock on their hands in the next few years. I don't think people will pay the current prices for the cars and the service like they did before. I think the next 5 years will determine where the Lexus brand goes. I think they either will downsize just a bit or go full line manufacturer..I just can't see Lexus staying the same. It is not all that their cars a bad but the competition is so competitive the LS and ES look stale even after only two years on the market.
I don't think people are going to be willing to pay the service prices and mark ups on Lexus models like the used. Yes the service at Lexus is good but almost all car service dealers take the customer service very seriously...Where I take my Toyota, they have leather couches, vending machines, coffee, HD tv, magazines etc. I am not sure how it could be any better.
I think Hyundai has hit a huge homerun with their new Genesis in that it really blurrs the definition of what a luxury car should be.
I don't think people are going to be willing to pay the service prices and mark ups on Lexus models like the used. Yes the service at Lexus is good but almost all car service dealers take the customer service very seriously...Where I take my Toyota, they have leather couches, vending machines, coffee, HD tv, magazines etc. I am not sure how it could be any better.
I think Hyundai has hit a huge homerun with their new Genesis in that it really blurrs the definition of what a luxury car should be.
08-26-08, 08:09 AM
#77
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Genesis Finds Luxury Buyers While Overall Hyundai Brand Consideration Grows
Genesis aims at low-priced luxury
Hyundai will spend $80 million to address consumer skepticism
Mary Connelly
Automotive News
August 25, 2008 - 12:01 am ET
ANN ARBOR, Mich. — The weak U.S. economy is helping to boost early sales of the new Hyundai Genesis premium sedan, company executives say.
The top-of-the-line V-8 version of the Genesis has a base price of about $38,000. Hyundai initially identified the target buyer of the Genesis as an owner of a mid-sized or large mass-market car who wants to move upscale.
But John Krafcik, Hyundai Motor America's vice president of product development and strategic planning, said at a press event here last week that the Genesis also is appealing to budget-minded owners of costlier luxury cars.
"That group, in these economic times, seems to be bigger than we expected," Krafcik told Automotive News. "We are seeing a lot of people who say, 'I didn't really get good value from the premium brand and the $3,000, $6,000, $10,000 or $15,000 extra I had to pay.' "
Sales target: 50,000
The Genesis sedan went on sale in late June. Production of a coupe is scheduled to begin in December. Next year, Krafcik said, Hyundai expects to sell as many as 50,000 of the cars to U.S. buyers.
Hyundai identifies the primary competitors of the Genesis as the Chrysler 300C, Lexus ES 350, Pontiac G8 and Cadillac CTS. "Image" competitors include the Lexus GS series, Infiniti M series, BMW 5 series and Mercedes E class.
To address consumer skepticism about Hyundai's move into the premium market, the $80 million advertising campaign for the Genesis will feature engineering test results that favorably compare the car with its competition. The tests cover such measures as acceleration, braking, cornering, interior sound and exterior finish.
"We are trying to overcome what we know are prejudices toward the brand," Joel Ewanick, Hyundai Motor America's marketing vice president, said in an interview. "So we are providing the burden of proof and laying out those key elements we know are important to consumers."
TV saturation
The ad campaign includes 12 online videos and nine 30-second TV commercials. New TV spots will appear during this week's Democratic National Convention and run through November, Ewanick said.
"You will have to be dead or living in a cave not to see a Genesis ad," he said.
Krafcik said 44 percent of early Genesis buyers have annual household incomes of more than $100,000. "That is new territory for Hyundai," he said.
Many Genesis buyers, Krafcik said, "have already tasted a premium brand, and they know what they are getting. Or more importantly, what they are not getting: 'My life didn't change when I bought a Mercedes. Maybe I will give this new brand a try.'"
Consideration of the Hyundai brand is growing, Krafcik said. This year, 56 percent of consumers surveyed by the company said they were aware of the brand and would consider buying a Hyundai vehicle. He said the figure has risen from 41 percent in 2005.
Book of Genesis
Elements of Hyundai's $80 million marketing campaign to launch the Genesis premium car:
# Nine 30-second TV spots that mostly compare Genesis engineering to luxury competitors'
# Dedicated Web site: http://www.hyundaigenesis.com
# 12 long-form online videos
# Print and out-of-home ads
Genesis aims at low-priced luxury
Hyundai will spend $80 million to address consumer skepticism
Mary Connelly
Automotive News
August 25, 2008 - 12:01 am ET
ANN ARBOR, Mich. — The weak U.S. economy is helping to boost early sales of the new Hyundai Genesis premium sedan, company executives say.
The top-of-the-line V-8 version of the Genesis has a base price of about $38,000. Hyundai initially identified the target buyer of the Genesis as an owner of a mid-sized or large mass-market car who wants to move upscale.
But John Krafcik, Hyundai Motor America's vice president of product development and strategic planning, said at a press event here last week that the Genesis also is appealing to budget-minded owners of costlier luxury cars.
"That group, in these economic times, seems to be bigger than we expected," Krafcik told Automotive News. "We are seeing a lot of people who say, 'I didn't really get good value from the premium brand and the $3,000, $6,000, $10,000 or $15,000 extra I had to pay.' "
Sales target: 50,000
The Genesis sedan went on sale in late June. Production of a coupe is scheduled to begin in December. Next year, Krafcik said, Hyundai expects to sell as many as 50,000 of the cars to U.S. buyers.
Hyundai identifies the primary competitors of the Genesis as the Chrysler 300C, Lexus ES 350, Pontiac G8 and Cadillac CTS. "Image" competitors include the Lexus GS series, Infiniti M series, BMW 5 series and Mercedes E class.
To address consumer skepticism about Hyundai's move into the premium market, the $80 million advertising campaign for the Genesis will feature engineering test results that favorably compare the car with its competition. The tests cover such measures as acceleration, braking, cornering, interior sound and exterior finish.
"We are trying to overcome what we know are prejudices toward the brand," Joel Ewanick, Hyundai Motor America's marketing vice president, said in an interview. "So we are providing the burden of proof and laying out those key elements we know are important to consumers."
TV saturation
The ad campaign includes 12 online videos and nine 30-second TV commercials. New TV spots will appear during this week's Democratic National Convention and run through November, Ewanick said.
"You will have to be dead or living in a cave not to see a Genesis ad," he said.
Krafcik said 44 percent of early Genesis buyers have annual household incomes of more than $100,000. "That is new territory for Hyundai," he said.
Many Genesis buyers, Krafcik said, "have already tasted a premium brand, and they know what they are getting. Or more importantly, what they are not getting: 'My life didn't change when I bought a Mercedes. Maybe I will give this new brand a try.'"
Consideration of the Hyundai brand is growing, Krafcik said. This year, 56 percent of consumers surveyed by the company said they were aware of the brand and would consider buying a Hyundai vehicle. He said the figure has risen from 41 percent in 2005.
Book of Genesis
Elements of Hyundai's $80 million marketing campaign to launch the Genesis premium car:
# Nine 30-second TV spots that mostly compare Genesis engineering to luxury competitors'
# Dedicated Web site: http://www.hyundaigenesis.com
# 12 long-form online videos
# Print and out-of-home ads
08-26-08, 08:49 AM
#78
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What would really sweeten the deal on the Genesis is if they offered free maitenance for the first 100,000km.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 08-26-08 at 02:30 PM. Reason: giant quote wasn't relevant
08-26-08, 09:20 AM
#79
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Well then I guess you should say the same for BMW, Mercedes-benz, and Audi.
Last edited by Perfection; 08-26-08 at 01:06 PM.
08-26-08, 09:58 AM
#80
WOOOOWWWWWWWWWW, 
300c got owned
i would never cross shop an Genesis to an 550i, GS450h or E550, but real talk, it is a better car for thousand less, we all know that, IMHO, there is only one 460 i respect and letters will say LS, im 100% sure about that cause that other one is WACK, "once again no disrespect to the owners"
i remember in the other post, someone said the GS 460 will destroy the Genesis, LMAO i think not, but who cares about old stuff,
the Genesis is not a bad car, some of ya'll just got to give credit when credit is do, im not a fan of MT but the article talking some real ****, i agree on most, but LS, S class should not be brought up next to hyundai, but then again its an Flagship sedan that drives like an LS and have more space the 7 series, S class
WOW
300c got ownedi would never cross shop an Genesis to an 550i, GS450h or E550, but real talk, it is a better car for thousand less, we all know that, IMHO, there is only one 460 i respect and letters will say LS, im 100% sure about that cause that other one is WACK, "once again no disrespect to the owners"
i remember in the other post, someone said the GS 460 will destroy the Genesis, LMAO i think not, but who cares about old stuff,
the Genesis is not a bad car, some of ya'll just got to give credit when credit is do, im not a fan of MT but the article talking some real ****, i agree on most, but LS, S class should not be brought up next to hyundai, but then again its an Flagship sedan that drives like an LS and have more space the 7 series, S class WOW
08-26-08, 12:36 PM
#81
I think Lexus has a shock on their hands in the next few years. I don't think people will pay the current prices for the cars and the service like they did before. I think the next 5 years will determine where the Lexus brand goes. I think they either will downsize just a bit or go full line manufacturer..I just can't see Lexus staying the same. It is not all that their cars a bad but the competition is so competitive the LS and ES look stale even after only two years on the market.
I don't think people are going to be willing to pay the service prices and mark ups on Lexus models like the used. Yes the service at Lexus is good but almost all car service dealers take the customer service very seriously...Where I take my Toyota, they have leather couches, vending machines, coffee, HD tv, magazines etc. I am not sure how it could be any better.
I think Hyundai has hit a huge homerun with their new Genesis in that it really blurrs the definition of what a luxury car should be.
I don't think people are going to be willing to pay the service prices and mark ups on Lexus models like the used. Yes the service at Lexus is good but almost all car service dealers take the customer service very seriously...Where I take my Toyota, they have leather couches, vending machines, coffee, HD tv, magazines etc. I am not sure how it could be any better.
I think Hyundai has hit a huge homerun with their new Genesis in that it really blurrs the definition of what a luxury car should be.
As to the Genesis. Awesome for you.
Are you buying one?
08-26-08, 01:06 PM
#82
Lexus Fanatic
it feels as though lexus has not offered anything new in the last few years other than an L-finesse body theme.
maybe next year they will bump the hp up to 380 on the GS460 or find a way to reduce weight.
lexus won't be worried about sales losses to hyundai........ but having an inferior product "on paper" is just embarrassing, even if lexus is overall the better product.
lexus needs to differentiate its products from the competition not out of fear of losing sales, but just to be different.
maybe next year they will bump the hp up to 380 on the GS460 or find a way to reduce weight.
lexus won't be worried about sales losses to hyundai........ but having an inferior product "on paper" is just embarrassing, even if lexus is overall the better product.
lexus needs to differentiate its products from the competition not out of fear of losing sales, but just to be different.
08-26-08, 03:51 PM
#83
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it feels as though lexus has not offered anything new in the last few years other than an L-finesse body theme.
maybe next year they will bump the hp up to 380 on the GS460 or find a way to reduce weight.
lexus won't be worried about sales losses to hyundai........ but having an inferior product "on paper" is just embarrassing, even if lexus is overall the better product.
lexus needs to differentiate its products from the competition not out of fear of losing sales, but just to be different.
maybe next year they will bump the hp up to 380 on the GS460 or find a way to reduce weight.
lexus won't be worried about sales losses to hyundai........ but having an inferior product "on paper" is just embarrassing, even if lexus is overall the better product.
lexus needs to differentiate its products from the competition not out of fear of losing sales, but just to be different.
. No one else has a luxury hybrid worth anyhing but Lexus. I can't imagine the engineering behind one."F". The ONLY Japanese brand with a sport marque. The amazing thing is the effort is incredible for its first time.
The LS debuted I believe 11 worlds firsts. 8 speed auto anyone?
The 2IS makes the 1IS look ancient. Debuted fastest in class.
Lexus continues to win image/quality/every award possible or finishes in the top 5 every year.
Some folks are simply being VERY knee-jerk b/c Lexus sales are down. EVERYONE is down
You see this is no longer the 1990s or 2000-2002, when it seems only BMW, Lexus. Benz had a clue.
Today EVERYONE has a much better product and we owe it to those 3 companies, maybe Lexus more than anyone. A new Accord or Camry or now Maxima can nearly be confused with being a luxury car.
Hyundai is serious. Caddy, Lincoln, Infiniti woke up. Volvo has great new products. Acura still is in business.
Lexus won't rest on their laurels b/c the one time they did, between 1994-1997, dealers went nuts. Lexus learned their lesson, which is something we can't say about some of the competition.
08-26-08, 06:13 PM
#84
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Hybrids maybe . No one else has a luxury hybrid worth anyhing but Lexus. I can't imagine the engineering behind one.
"F". The ONLY Japanese brand with a sport marque. The amazing thing is the effort is incredible for its first time.
The LS debuted I believe 11 worlds firsts. 8 speed auto anyone?
The 2IS makes the 1IS look ancient. Debuted fastest in class.
Lexus continues to win image/quality/every award possible or finishes in the top 5 every year.
Some folks are simply being VERY knee-jerk b/c Lexus sales are down. EVERYONE is down
You see this is no longer the 1990s or 2000-2002, when it seems only BMW, Lexus. Benz had a clue.
Today EVERYONE has a much better product and we owe it to those 3 companies, maybe Lexus more than anyone. A new Accord or Camry or now Maxima can nearly be confused with being a luxury car.
Hyundai is serious. Caddy, Lincoln, Infiniti woke up. Volvo has great new products. Acura still is in business.
Lexus won't rest on their laurels b/c the one time they did, between 1994-1997, dealers went nuts. Lexus learned their lesson, which is something we can't say about some of the competition.
. No one else has a luxury hybrid worth anyhing but Lexus. I can't imagine the engineering behind one."F". The ONLY Japanese brand with a sport marque. The amazing thing is the effort is incredible for its first time.
The LS debuted I believe 11 worlds firsts. 8 speed auto anyone?
The 2IS makes the 1IS look ancient. Debuted fastest in class.
Lexus continues to win image/quality/every award possible or finishes in the top 5 every year.
Some folks are simply being VERY knee-jerk b/c Lexus sales are down. EVERYONE is down
You see this is no longer the 1990s or 2000-2002, when it seems only BMW, Lexus. Benz had a clue.
Today EVERYONE has a much better product and we owe it to those 3 companies, maybe Lexus more than anyone. A new Accord or Camry or now Maxima can nearly be confused with being a luxury car.
Hyundai is serious. Caddy, Lincoln, Infiniti woke up. Volvo has great new products. Acura still is in business.
Lexus won't rest on their laurels b/c the one time they did, between 1994-1997, dealers went nuts. Lexus learned their lesson, which is something we can't say about some of the competition.
In fact I figure you are better able than I am to answer this but has Lexus ever made much of a change in hp without a change in the engine displacement? Whether it was 3.0 to 3.3 to 3.5 or 4.0 to 4.3 to 4.6 And of course the 4.0 went to 4.3 without any hp change as I recall. I don't believe I have seen any real change in hp without the engine really getting refreshed. On that basis, I think these ruminations on Lexus upping hp are meaningless and just not going to happen anytime soon unless there is more of a viewed issue than I think there is.
08-26-08, 06:50 PM
#85
Apologies for the hijack but if you are OK with it, I would like your opinion. There have been several posts about Lexus upping both the 350 and the 460 in hp and I don't see it. They are already playing General Motors nonsense with the 4.6 in the LS having a few more hp than the GS and I just can't see them playing with these motors in any significant way for hp. Especially as they aren't even that old, at least in the GS.
In fact I figure you are better able than I am to answer this but has Lexus ever made much of a change in hp without a change in the engine displacement? Whether it was 3.0 to 3.3 to 3.5 or 4.0 to 4.3 to 4.6 And of course the 4.0 went to 4.3 without any hp change as I recall. I don't believe I have seen any real change in hp without the engine really getting refreshed. On that basis, I think these ruminations on Lexus upping hp are meaningless and just not going to happen anytime soon unless there is more of a viewed issue than I think there is.
In fact I figure you are better able than I am to answer this but has Lexus ever made much of a change in hp without a change in the engine displacement? Whether it was 3.0 to 3.3 to 3.5 or 4.0 to 4.3 to 4.6 And of course the 4.0 went to 4.3 without any hp change as I recall. I don't believe I have seen any real change in hp without the engine really getting refreshed. On that basis, I think these ruminations on Lexus upping hp are meaningless and just not going to happen anytime soon unless there is more of a viewed issue than I think there is.
My guess would be...
~320HP/290 lb-ft torque for the 3.5L
~400hp/380lb-ft torque for the 4.6L
Additionally the 3.5L V6 is the fastest naturally aspirated V6 in it's class and also returns the best gas mileage. I don't think they need to up the power for performance reasons.
Truthfully I think the 2.5L in the IS250 is an adequate, smooth, and responsive engine but to stay competitive I wouldn't mind them moving it to 2.8 or 3.0 litres and 230-245hp. I guess this isn't likely to happen until the redesign though. I'd expect the GS and IS to finish out their current model cycles before any changes are made, but I would expect the fourth gen GS to debut with the updated V8 and V6, IS should also get updated V6s.
All just my thoughts though.
What will be interesting is to see what they do with the GX V8. I have heard rumors of them moving to a 4.6L with ~290hp and 350lb-ft of torque, but I think that strictly from a naming perspective, moving from GX 470 to GX 460 might confuse current and prospective buyers who were familiar with the old truck. I wouldn't mind them coming up with a 5.0L version of the 5.7L in the 570, good for ~330hp and 370lb-ft of torque.
Since the SC is still some 2.5 years off, I would expect it to certainly debut with the most up to date and recent V8....whether that's an SC 460 with Valvematic or an even more ambitious SC 500...who knows. I think the UR series is a great engine though, and I'm sure that Lexus will stay competitive.
Additionally, there has been the talk of electronically assisted turbos which could change some of their future models, but plans for that could be further off than many of us do or don't know.
08-26-08, 07:27 PM
#86
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I feel like Lexus has stopped trying during these years. It really doesn't excite me anymore. I really don't see any future Lexus worth waiting for in the near future except LF-A, which I can't afford and will probably never release to the market.
08-26-08, 09:38 PM
#87
Lexus Test Driver
I think Lexus has a shock on their hands in the next few years. I don't think people will pay the current prices for the cars and the service like they did before. I think the next 5 years will determine where the Lexus brand goes. I think they either will downsize just a bit or go full line manufacturer..I just can't see Lexus staying the same. It is not all that their cars a bad but the competition is so competitive the LS and ES look stale even after only two years on the market.
I don't think people are going to be willing to pay the service prices and mark ups on Lexus models like the used. Yes the service at Lexus is good but almost all car service dealers take the customer service very seriously...Where I take my Toyota, they have leather couches, vending machines, coffee, HD tv, magazines etc. I am not sure how it could be any better.
I think Hyundai has hit a huge homerun with their new Genesis in that it really blurrs the definition of what a luxury car should be.
I don't think people are going to be willing to pay the service prices and mark ups on Lexus models like the used. Yes the service at Lexus is good but almost all car service dealers take the customer service very seriously...Where I take my Toyota, they have leather couches, vending machines, coffee, HD tv, magazines etc. I am not sure how it could be any better.
I think Hyundai has hit a huge homerun with their new Genesis in that it really blurrs the definition of what a luxury car should be.
Most Lexus customers are like my parents who don't know even know the amount of HP the car has or care much about 0-60 times. All they care is what Lexus stands for - Reliable, Dependable, Luxurious.
I was begging my dad to shop other makes before he got the LS460 but he loves Lexus. He is loyal to the BRAND not the CAR, just like most customers.
If Hyundai Genesis had 500hp and cost $30k he still would not care.
IMO Car guys are different, I love my 2GS but currently there is no current Lex car I would want to buy...............Problem is most customers are not car enthusiasts and the BRAND Image & Loyalty is #1 to them.
08-26-08, 09:49 PM
#88
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8 speed auto anyone?
has Lexus ever made much of a change in hp without a change in the engine displacement?
08-26-08, 09:59 PM
#89
Lexus Fanatic
that's what i was talking about. now the regular brands have caught up.
i'd rather have new tech in a lexus than a hp bump.
is there anything fancy they can add?
hmm..... not really. yep, regular cars have caught up.
08-26-08, 10:06 PM
#90
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Apologies for the hijack but if you are OK with it, I would like your opinion. There have been several posts about Lexus upping both the 350 and the 460 in hp and I don't see it. They are already playing General Motors nonsense with the 4.6 in the LS having a few more hp than the GS and I just can't see them playing with these motors in any significant way for hp. Especially as they aren't even that old, at least in the GS.
It seems the reason the GS 460 is down on power is b/c the LS has dual intakes, the GS a single intake. The GS has no where the hood size of the LS.
In fact I figure you are better able than I am to answer this but has Lexus ever made much of a change in hp without a change in the engine displacement?
Very good question Ron! Here goes off the top of my head.
2ES went from 185 to 188 hp from the 1993 to 1994 model year with the same 3.0 V-6.
1SC went from 250hp to 260hp from 1994 to 1995. Same 4.0 V-8
2 LS did the same thing
1SC and 1GS/2GS went from 220hp to 225 with addition of VVTi in 1998 using the same 3.0 I-6
VVTi was a significant development, as Lexus used the same engine size but got 10% more power and economy.
1997 ES 300 got 200hp from the same 3.0 V-6.
1998 GS 400 got 300hp from the same 4.0 V-8.
1998 SC 400/LS 400 got 290hp from the same 4.0 V-8
Then comes the 4.3 V-8. No engine changes. Same hp rating BUT peak torque is 1000 RPM lower and the engine runs cleaner ULEV.
As of late, no real hp bumps with the same engines. What we DID see was Lexus be one of the first to comply with the NEW FED regulations on reporting HP. Thus the 2005 GS 430 had 290hp (same engine just rated differently). The 2006 IS 350 was to be rated between 318-325hp but the new regs. made Lexus rate it at 306 properly.
Well, I do believe the GX 470 got a mild bump in power as well using the same 4.7.
Whether it was 3.0 to 3.3 to 3.5 or 4.0 to 4.3 to 4.6 And of course the 4.0 went to 4.3 without any hp change as I recall. I don't believe I have seen any real change in hp without the engine really getting refreshed. On that basis, I think these ruminations on Lexus upping hp are meaningless and just not going to happen anytime soon unless there is more of a viewed issue than I think there is.
It seems the reason the GS 460 is down on power is b/c the LS has dual intakes, the GS a single intake. The GS has no where the hood size of the LS.
In fact I figure you are better able than I am to answer this but has Lexus ever made much of a change in hp without a change in the engine displacement?
Very good question Ron! Here goes off the top of my head.
2ES went from 185 to 188 hp from the 1993 to 1994 model year with the same 3.0 V-6.
1SC went from 250hp to 260hp from 1994 to 1995. Same 4.0 V-8
2 LS did the same thing
1SC and 1GS/2GS went from 220hp to 225 with addition of VVTi in 1998 using the same 3.0 I-6
VVTi was a significant development, as Lexus used the same engine size but got 10% more power and economy.
1997 ES 300 got 200hp from the same 3.0 V-6.
1998 GS 400 got 300hp from the same 4.0 V-8.
1998 SC 400/LS 400 got 290hp from the same 4.0 V-8
Then comes the 4.3 V-8. No engine changes. Same hp rating BUT peak torque is 1000 RPM lower and the engine runs cleaner ULEV.
As of late, no real hp bumps with the same engines. What we DID see was Lexus be one of the first to comply with the NEW FED regulations on reporting HP. Thus the 2005 GS 430 had 290hp (same engine just rated differently). The 2006 IS 350 was to be rated between 318-325hp but the new regs. made Lexus rate it at 306 properly.
Well, I do believe the GX 470 got a mild bump in power as well using the same 4.7.
Whether it was 3.0 to 3.3 to 3.5 or 4.0 to 4.3 to 4.6 And of course the 4.0 went to 4.3 without any hp change as I recall. I don't believe I have seen any real change in hp without the engine really getting refreshed. On that basis, I think these ruminations on Lexus upping hp are meaningless and just not going to happen anytime soon unless there is more of a viewed issue than I think there is.
We also have to remember Lexus has some of the cleanest engines running. They will sacrifice some power for the environment.
Should we BLAME the GS 400? It was the fastest automatic sedan in 1998 and Lexus sure did advertise it as such. Since then, the Germans took it VERY personally and put that argument to rest.
Also Lexus has never out displaced the competition. They have offered comparable power with a smaller engine. Look at how the LS 460 has nearly 1 liter less displacement than a S550 with pretty much the same power and better MPG>