newr

wow!
how the hell can Lexus even compete let alone be in the same league? just a few examples of the toys MB offers to their customers.

S550
S600
S63
S65
C63
E63 Sedan + Wagon
G500
G55
SL550
SL600
SLK55
SL63
SL65
CLK63
CL550
CL600
CL63
CL65
CLS550
CLS63
SLR
ML63

cjf_moraga

So? Previous S-Classes always had the wrap around wood... the general design layout and positioning of instrumentation is where you would expect ergonomically... There are only so many places to put a steering wheel, air vents, eye level navigation screen, center arm rest... what about all the things that are unique? the TFT display technology, the absence of any cheap plastic (aluminum instead) switches, vent surrounds, telephone hand rest... Only the fact that the S-Class also has a column shifter is similar to a 7-Series... This "copying argument" is really specious...

Chris

cjf_moraga

Did you drive an S600 or S65 which has more of a "exhaust tone"? My S600 (though the current w221 model) does not roar at all... the 5.5 V12 TT engine is ultra quiet and smooth unless under really heavy acceleration... and even then it is fairly quiet and not a roar... you feel it in the back though! It is the combination of Lexus comparable quietness and sports car extreme acceleration (the scenery outside just blurs) which is so distinctive and unlike any other car on the market...

Good overview though...

Chris

INHOCJP

Forgot to mention the Black Series CLK63 and SL

TwiBlueG35

I have neither driver nor ridden in any one of these two, but I am sure they are the best of the best in class. If I have the money, I would only consider these two flagship luxury sedans. Aesthetically I like the front of the S-class more than LS's, but I prefer the rear of LS more than S-class's. Interior I like LS's a little more. And somehow I believe in Lexus's reliability more than Mercedes-Benz. If I have the money I will buy a LS460 shortwheelbase RWD version to my father, who is going to turn 65 soon.

TwiBlueG35

The comparison or review you listed here was done by a German magazine or European of some sort isn't it? I can't completely trust it then.

TwiBlueG35

There are apparently more variations of Mercedes-Benz vehicle in their lineup, but what does it prove? To me Benz engine or AMG version of Benz's engines are very torquey but not efficent enough. I don't think Lexus is unable to produce such high displacement engine if they want to. Lexus and Toyota are all about profit, and these kind of high-performance but low production versions are not profitable to Lexus/Toyota's standards. Frankly, these 6.2L V8 or 6.0L V12 twin turbo engines are not environmental friendly, unlike the hybrid vehicles that Lexus has. And Mercedes-Benz is bebind Lexus or even Honda in the hybrid vehicles. Also, cars are not all about speed or top speed or performance, it is also about other criteria, and one important criteria is reliability, which Benz is far behind Lexus according several reports.

cjf_moraga

I agree that Lexus could certainly build a classic V12 if they wanted to. Toyota even has an older (though fairly low powered) V12 engine in the Japan market Century. The cost of design, production, and certification of a new V12 design is likely cheaper than the LS600h hybrid power train, being based on more mature technology underpinnings.

As stated in my previous post in this thread the S600 V12 has a higher mpg than advertised. (other S600 owners verify this also) The "environmentally friendly" argument is a false one - V12 cars account for a microscopically small percentage of all MB's sold. The total CO2 contribution is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Frankly if it is the environment you are worried about then a Prius is your car.

My assertion is that the LS600h power train is interesting, but that the economy, environmental and performance advantages it brings are actually hardly worth the extra cost it must have taken to develop, and its environmental credentials are marketing and "feel good" factors at best.

And the current S-Class is very reliable by all owner evidence. I have certainly had no issues. Do not base your argument on older models that share few components or design elements.

Chris

jracerlmn

You can say that about almost any magazine....

However i do agree with them. The old LS400, the LS430s were beautiful cars. I loved those cars because they were the epitome of quality. The new LS460/600h does not have that same feel. I would've put the old LS right next to the S-Class.

And although those low production special engines are not profitable, they are very clearly an engineering achievement. Those engines are not environmentally friendly, but neither is any big engine. I would even propose to say that anything over a V-6 is not environmentally friendly, and that includes the gs460h and the ls600h. Luxury cars are NOT meant to be environmentally friendly. The amount of wood, metal, leather, epoxy, etc that goes into a flagship sedan puts it near SUVs in terms of material usage. If you wanted environmentally friendly, drive a Prius (although building the batteries aren't green) or even worse, a Geo Metro.

I'm sure if MB wanted to go hybrid, they would've. However they've invested too much money into making diesels that are extremely efficient.

I wish lexus would give us "AMG" models. I realize we have the IS-F, but i want to see one for the GS or the LS.

TwiBlueG35

I could only judge reliability from cars that are at least several years old. The current S-class is too new to tell its long-term(more than 3 years) reliability. Yes, so is the new LS, therefore I could only compare the older models. Traditionally or recently I should say Lexus is better than Mercedes-Benz in this department. To me the more complicated cars are tend to go wrong easier than simple cars. S-class and LS are as complex as cars can get. You might be correct that Benz has rectified this issue in their latest products, time would tell. I also hope the prestigious Mercedes-Benz could go back to its old days, extremely reliable and giving customers bullet-proof products. Don't get me wrong, I like Mercedes-Benz vehicles in general, it is just that saying Benz is superior to Lexus is something I can't agree with. They are both overlapping in each other's markets and at the same time using differnt strategies to sell products and somehow taking different routes to create images.

LexFather

You forgot to mention V-6 models and diesel models.

Lexus is only 20 years young, to my point, its quite remarkable they are even mentioned in the same breathe as BMW and Benz.

Its even more remarkable considering they are 4th in sales worldwide with a limited lineup, one diesel, their only 4 cylinder, and no cute utes or cute mini like cars.

On the flipside
C220 hatch
A class
B class
S 350
SL 350
Diesels

Benz's product lineup is VAST in comparison, from the bottom where Lexus does not compete to the top where Lexus also does not compete.

LexFather

In an interview in Top Gear (where they loved the 600hL) the chief engineer explained they could have done a V-12 but they wanted to show how hybrid technology can be the best of both worlds and be the Halo to hybrids for any company.

Would it have been nice to have a Lexus V-12? Yup. However we all know Lexus won't build cars that sell in tiny amounts.

Maybe many of you missed it but BMW will NOT have a V-12 in their next 7 series. So it looks like again, Lexus management knew where the market was going.

Lexus has 3 hybrids now and a fourth coming, Benz has none. Benz has tons of AMG cars, Lexus has one competitor.

Different philosophies here.

cjf_moraga

Actually this was one reason why I bought an S600 - this may well be an engine configuration that will be rarer in the S600/LS600/760 price range in future... TT V8's seem to be the direction that MB is going...

Perhaps V12's will only be found in the even higher price range of Aston's, Ferraris etc... (And Rolls Royce still needs the BMW V12)

In MB's case it is hard to see how a V12 engine producing north of 500-600 hp can be improved (baring some unforeseen breakthrough in economy for this layout) much beyond the existing design for average road use. There is nothing quite like it... its like a locomotive engine under the hood!

BTW: MB will have a diesel hybrid called the S400 rolling out soon.

Chris

LexFather

Chris, and that is a great reason. I am not here to say one is better than the other, clearly people still demand a V-12 and some want a hybrid V-8. I am all for V-12s and there is nothing like them.

I don't bish about fuel economy in a V-12, thats not what the engine is about. I do bish about fuel economy in a V-6 (the Acura RL V-6 gets gas mileage not far from your V-12 for instance). Its about prestige and smoothness and an abundance of power in any gear at any time. As you stated, for every 30 S550s is probably 1 S600.

Even in affluent areas, you MIGHT see one V-12 a day.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

The success is Lexus is undeniable and SPECTACULAR. Now a global brand, promoted successfully at a huge number of events... the usual Lexus logos on the net at the U.S. open tennis , the pro golf events, Pebble Beach, Coach affiliation, etc., etc.

It's a study in brand development with a steady, consistent, and 'relentless pursuit'.

Having said all that it does seem to me that on the product side that Lexus is a quite conflicted. The 'sensible', quiet, refined, 'tidy ergonomics', effortlessness, and silky smooth ride is, to me, what defines Lexus. For Lexus to have then done the IS-F with its boy racer trim and loud exhaust is a bit like something Pontiac would do, and was, to me, odd. I think they could have done it in more of a Lexus way. The LF-A, well, we don't know exactly what will happen with it, but to go from the $110K LS600hL flagship to potentially a $200K+ exotic carbon fiber sports car also seems odd. I don't see how the LF-A helps Lexus at all really.

I was skeptical initially of their use of hybrid technology more on the 'effortlessness' track than straight fuel economy, but for the RX at least, it works. Gives people a bit more 'oomph' while making it even quieter and smoother, and not taking away ANY interior room. The GS450h is technically 'interesting' but the pathetic trunk space (apparently improved a lot for '09 somehow) was I expect a killer for many sales. And the LS600hL has some nice 'upscale' details, and I don't know why they put in AWD too as this vehicle is incredibly heavy and while quieter than an LS460L doesn't offer much except for the trim bits.

But getting back to the thread topic, the LS400 and LS430 were STUNNING ATTACKS on the BMW/MB flagships. Stunning in interior (and LS400 blew away the S and 7 series interiors at the time) and refinement. But BMW and MB have stepped up, with MB getting MUCH more assertive about interior design. I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks the 7 and S interiors are the same is blind or also thinks a Yaris and LS interior are similar too. Yes the 7 and S have the nav screen 'on top' because that makes sense given they're not touch screens, but the 7 has the instruments and screen in two ugly humps while the S has the screen area flow out of the instrument area. The S center stack has more wood and the extesion to the passenger area flows up in a curve vs. the "2x4" in the 7 series.

BUT, Lexus has taken a turn - the LS460 interior shows clear signs of 'cost accounting' vs. the LS430 interior. The LS430 interior is soft and rich while the LS460 looks busy and quick plasticky.

Lexus needs a SERIOUS upgrade to the LS interior to remain competitive. The LS is a GREAT car. Putting the money difference aside, the S class is a GREATER car though.