LS vs S class
#61
You forgot to mention V-6 models and diesel models.
I did not forget. I said toys and the ones you mentioned are not toys.
Lexus is only 20 years young, to my point, its quite remarkable they are even mentioned in the same breathe as BMW and Benz.
There is no doubt here
Its even more remarkable considering they are 4th in sales worldwide with a limited lineup, one diesel, their only 4 cylinder, and no cute utes or cute mini like cars.
On the flipside
C220 hatch
A class
B class
S 350
SL 350
Diesels
Benz's product lineup is VAST in comparison, from the bottom where Lexus does not compete to the top where Lexus also does not compete.
That exactly is the problem. People do not care about the lower line up. When people think of performance and luxury segments, they associate with the upper line up and Lexus simply just don't have the goods to deliver. They are starting one step in the right direction by offering the 600h and IS-F. Now bring on that damn LF-A and they will have a brighter future.
I did not forget. I said toys and the ones you mentioned are not toys.
Lexus is only 20 years young, to my point, its quite remarkable they are even mentioned in the same breathe as BMW and Benz.
There is no doubt here
Its even more remarkable considering they are 4th in sales worldwide with a limited lineup, one diesel, their only 4 cylinder, and no cute utes or cute mini like cars.
On the flipside
C220 hatch
A class
B class
S 350
SL 350
Diesels
Benz's product lineup is VAST in comparison, from the bottom where Lexus does not compete to the top where Lexus also does not compete.
That exactly is the problem. People do not care about the lower line up. When people think of performance and luxury segments, they associate with the upper line up and Lexus simply just don't have the goods to deliver. They are starting one step in the right direction by offering the 600h and IS-F. Now bring on that damn LF-A and they will have a brighter future.
In an interview in Top Gear (where they loved the 600hL) the chief engineer explained they could have done a V-12 but they wanted to show how hybrid technology can be the best of both worlds and be the Halo to hybrids for any company.
Would it have been nice to have a Lexus V-12? Yup. However we all know Lexus won't build cars that sell in tiny amounts.
Maybe many of you missed it but BMW will NOT have a V-12 in their next 7 series. So it looks like again, Lexus management knew where the market was going.
They consulted with Acura I am sure.
You know I don't care about counting cylinders. What really matter here is the power and torque an engine puts out whether it's powered by 6,8,12 or 16 cyls and supercharged, turbocharged, batteries, donkeys or olive oil...
Lexus has 3 hybrids now and a fourth coming, Benz has none. Benz has tons of AMG cars, Lexus has one competitor.
Different philosophies here.
Would it have been nice to have a Lexus V-12? Yup. However we all know Lexus won't build cars that sell in tiny amounts.
Maybe many of you missed it but BMW will NOT have a V-12 in their next 7 series. So it looks like again, Lexus management knew where the market was going.
They consulted with Acura I am sure.
You know I don't care about counting cylinders. What really matter here is the power and torque an engine puts out whether it's powered by 6,8,12 or 16 cyls and supercharged, turbocharged, batteries, donkeys or olive oil...
Lexus has 3 hybrids now and a fourth coming, Benz has none. Benz has tons of AMG cars, Lexus has one competitor.
Different philosophies here.
Last edited by newr; 09-08-08 at 10:27 PM.
#62
This simply means MB offers choices to their customers. A LOT of choices. They offer the kind of cars that not every car makers offer so if you want a certain kind of luxury cars... like, V12, supercharged, twin turbos, sedan, coupe, convertible, ect and ect.. There are only a few dealerships carry and Lexus is not one of them.
Has it accured to anyone that actual buyers in this price range could care less about MPG making Hybrid options a huge hunk of useless weight.
#63
Maybe it all comes down to personal preference. There arn't too many people driving a LS460, 600h, or 460L who can't aford one of the S models.
I personally think that the S class looks worse than the CLS class. I have thought the LS460 has looked beautiful since it came out! I think it looks far better than the S class.
But, the S class looks good too.
I personally think that the S class looks worse than the CLS class. I have thought the LS460 has looked beautiful since it came out! I think it looks far better than the S class.
But, the S class looks good too.
#64
BUT, Lexus has taken a turn - the LS460 interior shows clear signs of 'cost accounting' vs. the LS430 interior. The LS430 interior is soft and rich while the LS460 looks busy and quick plasticky.
Lexus needs a SERIOUS upgrade to the LS interior to remain competitive. The LS is a GREAT car. Putting the money difference aside, the S class is a GREATER car though
Lexus needs a SERIOUS upgrade to the LS interior to remain competitive. The LS is a GREAT car. Putting the money difference aside, the S class is a GREATER car though
the LS400 and LS430 were STUNNING ATTACKS on the BMW/MB flagships. Stunning in interior (and LS400 blew away the S and 7 series interiors at the time) and refinement.
The LS430 won the Car and Driver comparo of flagships in 2003, Motor Trend refered to it as the benchmark and Consumer Reporst loved it.
Now the LS460 finished dead last in the Car and Driver Comparo, Motor Trend no longer thinks its the benchmark...not sure what CR claims but I think it did do very well.
Last edited by pagemaster; 09-08-08 at 11:17 PM.
#65
The LF-A, well, we don't know exactly what will happen with it, but to go from the $110K LS600hL flagship to potentially a $200K+ exotic carbon fiber sports car also seems odd. I don't see how the LF-A helps Lexus at all really
#66
#67
but gs best in class at nothing? guess you didn't read my reply to your post in 3gs forum
#68
#69
How much more do you want the LS to move up? Hybrid versions are already well over 100K. The last one I looked in the showroom (no, I'm not buying one) was 117K.
#70
I don't think the hybrid LS600h is worth the asking price. I think the interior is not as up to par as other $100k cars. I would like to see the LS move up to the $100k starting price and have the best interior material and design on the market.
#71
#72
Automotive design, both exterior and interior wise, doesn't happen overnight. These things take years to be developed and perfected. I honestly don't think Mercedes copied the BMW 7er interior in that regard. More likely both companies designed these interiors based on market research feedback. People wanted something classy, yet ergonomically sound and this is how those interiors came about.
Yes, I like to give the benefit of the doubt.
#73
Adding smaller engines to a premium car in Europe will not automatically equal success. Jaguar has a very thin dealer network throughout Europe. The same goes for Lexus.
#74
I can read German and the review was pretty straightforward and downright honest. The LS received credit where credit was due. Click on the link and look at the other criteria where the LS received higher marks than the BMW or Mercedes.
There have been a number of European reviews from Germany, Britain and France which seem to comment on the fact that when the LS rides over rougher roads, the suspension doesn't fully impress. When a number of different reviews mention this, there's bound to be a reason behind it. I've never read about this in an American publication, almost as if they only drive it over smooth roads. I don't know, but this is an observation.
I'd be interested in reading a Japanese review of the LS vs the Europeans, honestly translated of course.
#75
Frankly, these 6.2L V8 or 6.0L V12 twin turbo engines are not environmental friendly, unlike the hybrid vehicles that Lexus has. And Mercedes-Benz is bebind Lexus or even Honda in the hybrid vehicles. Also, cars are not all about speed or top speed or performance, it is also about other criteria, and one important criteria is reliability, which Benz is far behind Lexus according several reports.
Lexus hybrids to me are 50% truth and 50% lies. Hybrids are efficient in the city, and that's basically it. Your general Lexus hybrid is overloaded with a heavy electric motor and heavy batteries. These things add weight and decrease the efficiency of the gasoline engine on certain roads or driving situations. I've never been fully convinced by Lexus hybrids. The Prius is the best hybrid by far at the moment, but the Lexus hybrids, to me, are nothing but overhyped marketing gimmicks. I've found that most people I talk to think hybrids are fuel-efficient. When I ask them why, they reply, "Because it's a hybrid."
The newest S class has been very reliable according to most consumer surveys. I recently found a UK Mercedes owners survey and the owners of the newest C, E and S classes were delighted with their cars.