LS vs S class
09-09-08, 05:18 AM
#76
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The LS400 was very futuristic, the W126 was an old school classic European luxury sedan. I like both.
09-09-08, 07:40 AM
#77
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The LS400 interior was downright boring and lacked class. Too much plastic and the wood didn't feel or look special enough (for me). It was a well-made interior, but in overall appeal I feel the W126 S class had the better, more elegantly crafted interior.
The LS400 was very futuristic, the W126 was an old school classic European luxury sedan. I like both.
The LS400 was very futuristic, the W126 was an old school classic European luxury sedan. I like both.
I think your pics make my case quite nicely. 
09-09-08, 09:48 AM
#79
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First off, Mercedes doesn't market their V12 or AMG engines as environmentally friendly motors. Second, these are low volume models. Heck, Toyota does more damage to the environment with the amount of V8 Landcruisers they sell in the US and elsewhere than Mercedes does with their S600s etc. - literally (literally).
Don't make statements you CANNOT back up. Where is any proof that Toyota does more damange with V-8 Landcruisers than Benz does with their 600? Where?????.
Lexus hybrids to me are 50% truth and 50% lies. Hybrids are efficient in the city, and that's basically it. Your general Lexus hybrid is overloaded with a heavy electric motor and heavy batteries. These things add weight and decrease the efficiency of the gasoline engine on certain roads or driving situations. I've never been fully convinced by Lexus hybrids. The Prius is the best hybrid by far at the moment, but the Lexus hybrids, to me, are nothing but overhyped marketing gimmicks. I've found that most people I talk to think hybrids are fuel-efficient. When I ask them why, they reply, "Because it's a hybrid."
You totally missed the entire point of Lexus hyrbids. They are not for fuel efficency 100%. They are for PERFORMANCE as well. You totally missed that part of the equation.
The newest S class has been very reliable according to most consumer surveys. I recently found a UK Mercedes owners survey and the owners of the newest C, E and S classes were delighted with their cars.
Don't make statements you CANNOT back up. Where is any proof that Toyota does more damange with V-8 Landcruisers than Benz does with their 600? Where?????.
Lexus hybrids to me are 50% truth and 50% lies. Hybrids are efficient in the city, and that's basically it. Your general Lexus hybrid is overloaded with a heavy electric motor and heavy batteries. These things add weight and decrease the efficiency of the gasoline engine on certain roads or driving situations. I've never been fully convinced by Lexus hybrids. The Prius is the best hybrid by far at the moment, but the Lexus hybrids, to me, are nothing but overhyped marketing gimmicks. I've found that most people I talk to think hybrids are fuel-efficient. When I ask them why, they reply, "Because it's a hybrid."
You totally missed the entire point of Lexus hyrbids. They are not for fuel efficency 100%. They are for PERFORMANCE as well. You totally missed that part of the equation.
The newest S class has been very reliable according to most consumer surveys. I recently found a UK Mercedes owners survey and the owners of the newest C, E and S classes were delighted with their cars.
09-09-08, 09:52 AM
#80
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Smaller engines in Europe make more sense for these cars. In fact, most people who buy these cars in Europe buy the engine which suits their needs. Americans don't have a choice. They have to buy the thirsty V8 even though they will 90% of the time most likely never make use of the power. Think of all the fuel we could be saving if consumers had the choice of ordering the engine that would suit their needs. Some people want a V8 solely for prestige or bragging rights. Other consumers, however, would like to have a smaller engine available because of better gas mileage and because they realize they don't need the power. Europeans seem to understand this. Americans still think "luxury car = V8 at all costs". But why?
Adding smaller engines to a premium car in Europe will not automatically equal success. Jaguar has a very thin dealer network throughout Europe. The same goes for Lexus.
Adding smaller engines to a premium car in Europe will not automatically equal success. Jaguar has a very thin dealer network throughout Europe. The same goes for Lexus.
List the ENTIRE lineup, from 4 cylinder TOyota Yaris competitors to SL 65 Black Series Ferrari fighters.
You are sadly mistaken about the American market. We do want V-8s and they are proper for a luxury car but the vast majority of luxury cars sold are not V-8s.
If anything don't blame us, blame the GERMAN COMPANIES who fool Americans by only importing their V-8 models and upper class models and not selling us their smaller engine cars. The Germans want to keep their "prestige" here by only offering these models.
09-09-08, 10:07 AM
#81
.
You are sadly mistaken about the American market. We do want V-8s and they are proper for a luxury car but the vast majority of luxury cars sold are not V-8s.
If anything don't blame us, blame the GERMAN COMPANIES who fool Americans by only importing their V-8 models and upper class models and not selling us their smaller engine cars. The Germans want to keep their "prestige" here by only offering these models.
You are sadly mistaken about the American market. We do want V-8s and they are proper for a luxury car but the vast majority of luxury cars sold are not V-8s.
If anything don't blame us, blame the GERMAN COMPANIES who fool Americans by only importing their V-8 models and upper class models and not selling us their smaller engine cars. The Germans want to keep their "prestige" here by only offering these models.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=377573
09-09-08, 10:27 AM
#82
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I am not disagreeing with this. My point is simple, if you are going to discuss how vast Mercedes lineup is, lets not work for their marketing department and ONLY LIST AMG cars and V-8 models.
List the ENTIRE lineup, from 4 cylinder TOyota Yaris competitors to SL 65 Black Series Ferrari fighters.
You are sadly mistaken about the American market. We do want V-8s and they are proper for a luxury car but the vast majority of luxury cars sold are not V-8s.
If anything don't blame us, blame the GERMAN COMPANIES who fool Americans by only importing their V-8 models and upper class models and not selling us their smaller engine cars. The Germans want to keep their "prestige" here by only offering these models.
List the ENTIRE lineup, from 4 cylinder TOyota Yaris competitors to SL 65 Black Series Ferrari fighters.
You are sadly mistaken about the American market. We do want V-8s and they are proper for a luxury car but the vast majority of luxury cars sold are not V-8s.
If anything don't blame us, blame the GERMAN COMPANIES who fool Americans by only importing their V-8 models and upper class models and not selling us their smaller engine cars. The Germans want to keep their "prestige" here by only offering these models.
09-09-08, 10:34 AM
#83
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I was in Frankfurt a few months ago. They use S-class sedans for taxi's in Europe too, not as common as the E-class taxi's, but I've seen them in Denmark & Germany ...
09-09-08, 12:31 PM
#84
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First off, Mercedes doesn't market their V12 or AMG engines as environmentally friendly motors. Second, these are low volume models. Heck, Toyota does more damage to the environment with the amount of V8 Landcruisers they sell in the US and elsewhere than Mercedes does with their S600s etc. - literally (literally).
Lexus hybrids to me are 50% truth and 50% lies. Hybrids are efficient in the city, and that's basically it. Your general Lexus hybrid is overloaded with a heavy electric motor and heavy batteries. These things add weight and decrease the efficiency of the gasoline engine on certain roads or driving situations. I've never been fully convinced by Lexus hybrids. The Prius is the best hybrid by far at the moment, but the Lexus hybrids, to me, are nothing but overhyped marketing gimmicks. I've found that most people I talk to think hybrids are fuel-efficient. When I ask them why, they reply, "Because it's a hybrid."
The newest S class has been very reliable according to most consumer surveys. I recently found a UK Mercedes owners survey and the owners of the newest C, E and S classes were delighted with their cars.
Lexus hybrids to me are 50% truth and 50% lies. Hybrids are efficient in the city, and that's basically it. Your general Lexus hybrid is overloaded with a heavy electric motor and heavy batteries. These things add weight and decrease the efficiency of the gasoline engine on certain roads or driving situations. I've never been fully convinced by Lexus hybrids. The Prius is the best hybrid by far at the moment, but the Lexus hybrids, to me, are nothing but overhyped marketing gimmicks. I've found that most people I talk to think hybrids are fuel-efficient. When I ask them why, they reply, "Because it's a hybrid."
The newest S class has been very reliable according to most consumer surveys. I recently found a UK Mercedes owners survey and the owners of the newest C, E and S classes were delighted with their cars.
Again, the new S-class and C-class are too new to tell their long-term reliability. All I know is Lexus is ahead of Mercedes-Benz in the latest reports by J.D. Power in terms of long-term reliability. I could only tell by brand, not any particular model, because I don't have the information to tell.
Last edited by TwiBlueG35; 09-09-08 at 12:35 PM.
09-09-08, 02:13 PM
#86
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That low down torque is exactly what you need to move a 5000 lb car quickly... and it is all usable in real world speeds and road conditions from 1200 rpm upwards... More so than highly strung NA engines that have to revved really high to obtain the power "sweet spot"... (Given its closeness in price to an S600, the S63 makes little sense to me)The current (M275/M285) TT V12 design goes back to 2003 but still has large reserves of unused capacity... some tuned variants can run north of 680 hp and 850 lb/ft torque... It is the transmissions and putting the power onto the road that is the limiting factor - the MB 7-speed would be shredded. (Why the S600/S65 still has the older but stronger 5-speed box - not that high torque engines of this type need any more gears anyway!)
Though electric motors in hybrids can certainly in principle generate very high torque, performance wise they are not in this class yet... When I tested the LS600h I was hoping that its electric motor would provide a really noticeable boost, but it is still far short of the mechanically simpler V12... No doubt this can improve in a next generation of performance oriented hybrids but in this generation based on my experience comparing the two the LS600h missed the mark. (Compared to its rival) Of course this is only important if performance is a key purchasing criteria.
Chris
Last edited by cjf_moraga; 09-09-08 at 02:23 PM.
09-09-08, 04:11 PM
#87
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How are each of those a "marketing gimmick"?
I think hybrids are overly hyped but achieving 50 mpg is no gimmick. It's serving a real purpose. Right now, the hybrid price premium is still too high but they do work nevertheless.
And do people need V12's? Of course not, but like everything else about a car with a V12, it's all about excess. And the displacement and feel of a V12 does have it's rewards. A "gimmick"? No. Just like a V12 in a Lamborghini isn't a gimmick but is part of what makes it a supercar.
09-09-08, 04:34 PM
#88
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hybrid system in LS600HL is only partially for marketing purposes
hybrids will have to be built into these sedans
because the potential for technological advancement is quite huge so think of it as a generation 1 system that can be greatly improved as the years go on
the rate of improvement is going to be faster than engine technology development at this stage IMO
so if Lexus never built LS600HL, no one will be seriously developing the next gen hybrid system for large sedans that will actually make economical, environmental, and performance sense
btw, LS600HL probably produces less pollutants than a V12 car
for those who argue about battery impact on the environment, battery production technology has come a long way and is definitely cleaner than before
also it is localized into one area where the pollution can be treated easily unlike cars spreading that same amount of pollution over the whole country into every block of the neighbourhood unable to be treated
hybrids will have to be built into these sedans
because the potential for technological advancement is quite huge so think of it as a generation 1 system that can be greatly improved as the years go on
the rate of improvement is going to be faster than engine technology development at this stage IMO
so if Lexus never built LS600HL, no one will be seriously developing the next gen hybrid system for large sedans that will actually make economical, environmental, and performance sense
btw, LS600HL probably produces less pollutants than a V12 car
for those who argue about battery impact on the environment, battery production technology has come a long way and is definitely cleaner than before
also it is localized into one area where the pollution can be treated easily unlike cars spreading that same amount of pollution over the whole country into every block of the neighbourhood unable to be treated
09-09-08, 06:40 PM
#89
Brand loyalty and numbers of years used. I think most MB drivers buy MB for the "name" and they know not to hold on to the vehicle for too long, so in their mind, it was a good vehicle and they'll purchase another one. Lexus owners buy for name too, but they also know the vehicles will last a long time. How many LS400 do we see on the road compared to same generation "S" class? I'll once in a while see an old late 80s/early 90s MB, but they will be diesels, which usually run forever, but gas... nope.
If you got money to throw out the window and don't mind driving a new car every few years and take the depreciation hit, then get a MB. If you like fine vehicles that are trouble free and don't need a new car every four or five years, then get a Lexus.
Nuff said...
JMHO.
If you got money to throw out the window and don't mind driving a new car every few years and take the depreciation hit, then get a MB. If you like fine vehicles that are trouble free and don't need a new car every four or five years, then get a Lexus.
Nuff said...
JMHO.
09-10-08, 05:25 AM
#90
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How so?
People criticize the current W204 C class interior for being "cheap", but the LS400 interior had the same layout, basically. A large slab of black plastic in the center console and across the cockpit. Wood can only be found down by the gear lever of the transmission. The W126 cockpit has a more friendlier atmosphere in my honest opinion in part due to the oldschool design and massive use of wood here and there.
I've stated an opinion. To me the W126 interior felt more luxurious and elegant than the LS400. I'm speaking from experience as my father owned an early 1980s 300SD Turbodiesel. When I first sat in an LS400 back in the early 1990s, I honestly wasn't blown away by the interior much. The car impressed me, but the interior felt stale and lifeless compared to the classy interior of the W126. Again, this is my personal opinion and I try to back it up with solid arguments. The LS400 was the more advanced car, no doubt. Not hard to imagine since the W126 S class was released back in 1979 which means work on it started in 1972 when its predecessor was released. Pretty respectable that it competed so well against the LS400 which was developed nearly a decade later. Again, I like both cars very much. The LS400 was the better car, but to me its biggest letdown was the interior.
People criticize the current W204 C class interior for being "cheap", but the LS400 interior had the same layout, basically. A large slab of black plastic in the center console and across the cockpit. Wood can only be found down by the gear lever of the transmission. The W126 cockpit has a more friendlier atmosphere in my honest opinion in part due to the oldschool design and massive use of wood here and there.
I've stated an opinion. To me the W126 interior felt more luxurious and elegant than the LS400. I'm speaking from experience as my father owned an early 1980s 300SD Turbodiesel. When I first sat in an LS400 back in the early 1990s, I honestly wasn't blown away by the interior much. The car impressed me, but the interior felt stale and lifeless compared to the classy interior of the W126. Again, this is my personal opinion and I try to back it up with solid arguments. The LS400 was the more advanced car, no doubt. Not hard to imagine since the W126 S class was released back in 1979 which means work on it started in 1972 when its predecessor was released. Pretty respectable that it competed so well against the LS400 which was developed nearly a decade later. Again, I like both cars very much. The LS400 was the better car, but to me its biggest letdown was the interior.