LS vs S class
09-10-08, 11:38 AM
#106
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I find the Toyota cars that are sold in the US and in Europe to be rather boring, to be honest. I love, however, some of the cars that they sell in Japan which I am only able to see on google, Wikipedia or on the Japanese Toyota website. The Crown Majesta is a favorite of mine for example. Obviously, it would be too glitzy for the US and a total flop in Europe, but it is a nice car nonetheless. And of course the Century. 
Interesting point.
However, cars like the 1 series, A3 or A/B classes are considered premium in Europe and globally. They're not cheap to begin with and they come better-equipped than comparable cars in the mainstream class below them. My girlfriends parents for instance drive a Mercedes B class. I am not sure which model it is but it is a gasoline model. I've ridden in it a couple of times and it actually spacious and very comfortable and the motor sounds very smooth and refined. In a way, these are expectations that luxury buyers have and the B class fulfills them. I suspect the A3 and 1 series do the same.
And again, the bulk of Lexus sales are still in the US whereas the European marques are spread out more evenly across the globe. Brings another "Can Lexus really be compared to these brands?" argument to the table because they're essentially still relying on one major market for the bulk of their sales.
Interesting point.
However, cars like the 1 series, A3 or A/B classes are considered premium in Europe and globally. They're not cheap to begin with and they come better-equipped than comparable cars in the mainstream class below them. My girlfriends parents for instance drive a Mercedes B class. I am not sure which model it is but it is a gasoline model. I've ridden in it a couple of times and it actually spacious and very comfortable and the motor sounds very smooth and refined. In a way, these are expectations that luxury buyers have and the B class fulfills them. I suspect the A3 and 1 series do the same.
And again, the bulk of Lexus sales are still in the US whereas the European marques are spread out more evenly across the globe. Brings another "Can Lexus really be compared to these brands?" argument to the table because they're essentially still relying on one major market for the bulk of their sales.
Dustin you make good points but you should do some reading around here. The Germans mostly sell in Europe. Lexus has been #1 in Russia and China, dethroning the GErmans. As of late, Lexus is 3rd in Russia but closely behind.
Just b/c cars are considered "premium" in Europe does not mean they are premium. The fact is the 1/A2, A3, A class, B class are mostly cars Toyota has competition for, not Lexus.
I go back to my point on how the Germans want to continue to "fool" people here that they only sell uplevel cars. Take the new 1 series for instance. We only get the coupe, we only get 6 cylinder engines. This same car is offered with low hp 4 cylinders, diesels AND A HATCHBACK.
Do we get those options? Nope. We get overpriced 128s and 135s (even if the car has grown on me).
The Germans have CLEARLY STATED and CONTINUE to state, they are chasing sales, thus the move downmarket, to more SAV/SUVs and niche sales. They want to sell more cars. Lexus has never stated this. Their feeling is we will build competitive cars and if they HAPPEN to be best selling, that is great.
09-10-08, 11:42 AM
#107
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This is correct. The Lexus Hybrid does not remotely offer acceleration comparable to an S600... Lexus might try to argue that it is comparable to the older V12 7-series (which is being dropped) or the W12 A8, but it is simply not in the same league as the S600. (That it was explicitly designed to compete with - even down to the 600 nomenclature)
To claim "hybrid performance" credentials only makes sense within the context of what the car is competing against... (A contemporary V6 Camry would be a performance car 20 years ago!) The LS600h has no performance advantages over a cheaper S550... and few over the cheaper LS460... its economy advantages are small and overstated... so what are you getting for all the extra money then? AWD? Otherwise you can get most of the comforts in a fully packaged LS460...
I am not hating on the LS600h. It is a very luxurious car and I liked it when comparing it to the S600. To state though that it is comparable to its V!2 competitors in performance or substantive fuel efficiency is a misrepresentation. If Lexus had toned down their "comparable to a V12" marketing and called it the LS500h they would have been more honest. The hybrid technology is distinctive enough to stand on its own merits.
Chris
To claim "hybrid performance" credentials only makes sense within the context of what the car is competing against... (A contemporary V6 Camry would be a performance car 20 years ago!) The LS600h has no performance advantages over a cheaper S550... and few over the cheaper LS460... its economy advantages are small and overstated... so what are you getting for all the extra money then? AWD? Otherwise you can get most of the comforts in a fully packaged LS460...
I am not hating on the LS600h. It is a very luxurious car and I liked it when comparing it to the S600. To state though that it is comparable to its V!2 competitors in performance or substantive fuel efficiency is a misrepresentation. If Lexus had toned down their "comparable to a V12" marketing and called it the LS500h they would have been more honest. The hybrid technology is distinctive enough to stand on its own merits.
Chris
COmpared to the W-12 A8 or 750, the LS 600h makes a much better case for itself.
09-10-08, 11:45 AM
#108
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I think you're mistaken about a little aspect of Lexus hybrids in Europe. To my knowledge they sell well in the UK, not mainland Europe. Most Lexus in the UK will be found in London, a place where people have purchasing power and where there used to be an incentive to buy hybrids: the congestion charge. Now, hybrids are not exempt from this charge anymore. And in Europe like in the US, there will be people who'll buy a hybrid because the marketing worked on them. They feel they are doing their part in being clean and green or they like the allure which a supposedly advanced vehicle gives them in terms of perceived status.
Hybrids can only get better from this point on, I agree. But at the moment they're heavy and in my opinion ill suited to being classified as "performance cars" or anything with the "performance" moniker in it. Correct me if I am wrong but don't Lexus hybrids switch from electric- to gasoline-powered above 30 mph? Because most passing takes place on the highway, I would assume, and that means the electric engine is not powering the car. No instant torque surges I would expect.
And for the record, my former 136-hp Mercedes C200 CDI (base model in Europe) had excellent passing power on the autobahn at speeds that would cost you your license back in the US.
Hybrids can only get better from this point on, I agree. But at the moment they're heavy and in my opinion ill suited to being classified as "performance cars" or anything with the "performance" moniker in it. Correct me if I am wrong but don't Lexus hybrids switch from electric- to gasoline-powered above 30 mph? Because most passing takes place on the highway, I would assume, and that means the electric engine is not powering the car. No instant torque surges I would expect.
And for the record, my former 136-hp Mercedes C200 CDI (base model in Europe) had excellent passing power on the autobahn at speeds that would cost you your license back in the US.
Yes the U.K is their biggest market.
09-10-08, 11:55 AM
#109
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To be fair, if Lexus were to offer a small car it would most likely be based on a lower-end Toyota platform due to lower costs. Now personally I don't care about this because it really means nothing. Platform sharing is so frowned upon for no reason other than blind hate or simple stupidity. A platform can easily be modified at cost effective prices, too.
True more than likely but thats not the point I was making. My point is Lexus does NOT sell small cars. That is not speculative. THey do NOT compete in the sub entry level market like the Germans do.
The only people who would seriously make these Toyota-Lexus comparisons are Lexus-haters. And I suppose in their insane state-of-mind they do have a slight point. The best-selling Lexus cars in the US are the Lexus RX and Lexus ES. The RX is a rebadged Toyota Harrier while the ES is based on the Camry platform I believe. This gives the haters fuel to add to the fire, especially the older Lexus, which, pardon my word usage here, were shamelessly rebadged Toyotas from Japan.
RX is not a rebadged Harrier. First off the RX was indeed made for the US market mostly, as the first luxury based SUV. It was then rebadged as a HArrier as there was no dealer network in Japan.
Older Lexus were NOT shamelessly rebadged, where are you getting this? The ES 250 and LX 450 were the only blatant rebdadges, everything else was designed to be a Lexus and sold as a Lexus worldwide except in Japan (again no dealer network).
Don't misunderstand me. Toyota and Lexus are good companies but for Lexus to be taken more seriously globally they need to really distance themselves from Toyota. In todays world information like this spreads like the speed of light thanks to electronic communication (internet etc.). There are many sensitive people out there, I imagine, that can't live with a Lexus because there's too close a relationship to Toyota cars. The new Landcruiser for example shares the same seat configuration buttons as the LS460/LS600h. I personally am not offended by this, but some folks are.
I agree and Lexus recognizes this, and continues to seperate. But we both know how conservative BOTH companies are, so don't hold your breathe for any amazingly different changes. Its amazing we got the IS-F quite frankly. That is what makes Lexus great but is also a major beef with people. Too conservative. And quite frankly look at the LS 600hL, it shares nothing with a Toyota and haters and people will still call it "a fancy Toyota"
No offense, but the bulk of Lexus sales are in the US and most of these are generated by the RX and ES. When you look at the figures BMW or Mercedes reach in terms of global sales, the 4th place Lexus occupies doesn't look that glitzy. Audi is the rising star from Germany and their global sales are increasing at a rapid pace. I believe BMW and Mercedes sell over a million or 1.5 million cars globally while Lexus total sales are something around 200,000-400,000. Correct me if I am wrong.
The bulk of EVERYONES sales are in the USA, its everyone biggest/most profitable market. I totally agree though that LExus was made for America first where its success has shown and much less in Europe where tastes are MUCH different.
I like Lexus a lot, but I like to be objective too. Lexus is a young brand and in my honest opinion they can learn many things from their rivals, just like their rivals learned many things from them.
Correct sir!
Automotive nationalism is a major factor in Europe, true, but how do you explain the impressive sales of expensive European luxury cars in Japan compared to Lexus? The only Lexus which really sells well in Japan is the LS, I believe. The rest are hardly a blip on the radar screen. I think Lexus made the mistake of offering certain products in the Japanese market which the Japanese cannot relate to. For example, why would someone buy an RX when you can get a Toyota Harrier for less money and most likely the same features? If we're honest, this is something of a major blooper on Lexus behalf.
Japan is VERY much concerned about image. Ask the guys that post from there. From name brand clothes, to gadgets to cars, the status quo gets the $$$$$. Lexus does have opportunities in Japan, but ROme was not built in a day.
It's always a question of how much an individual needs and desires. A young college student might prefer the sportier and sportier sounding nature of a BMW 320i than the old-man image a V6 Lexus ES offers. A BMW 320i might loose out to an older V6 ES in a race, but when the corners start appearing the BMW can use its handling advantage to gain on the Lexus and eventually perhaps overtake it. 4-cylinder engines have their charms too, especially from BMW. It's always a question of the individual. You cannot assume that everyone will automatically take the more refined ES with a V6 over a 4-cylinder 320i. Engines don't necessarily sell cars. It's the whole package. The 4-cyl. 320i appeals to a certain crowd, the ES V6 to another.
I agree with you here for the most part.
Wrong, I'm afraid. Only the most familiar European magazines put performance above everything else, namely EVO (a very sports-biased car magazine), Fifth Gear and from Germany, Motorvision. Other magazines will test performance cars in a sporty fashion and review them accordingly, but the vast majority of German and British publications I've been exposed to review cars as how a normal person on the street would review them. What's the interior space like? Is the trunk big enough? Insurance and maintenance costs, what are they like? Magazines like Autozeitung, Autobild, L'Equipe and various British publications are aimed at the "common man" (the person who doesn't really value performance much) and inform him or her about the cars they're interested in and about the thing that matter. Performance is important to Europeans, but we're talking about normal performance. 0-60 times of under 10 seconds are completely acceptable here (and these cars have very good midrange acceleration ratings) whereas back home people would be calling them slow or underpowered etc.
I hope we're not at war here.
True more than likely but thats not the point I was making. My point is Lexus does NOT sell small cars. That is not speculative. THey do NOT compete in the sub entry level market like the Germans do.
The only people who would seriously make these Toyota-Lexus comparisons are Lexus-haters. And I suppose in their insane state-of-mind they do have a slight point. The best-selling Lexus cars in the US are the Lexus RX and Lexus ES. The RX is a rebadged Toyota Harrier while the ES is based on the Camry platform I believe. This gives the haters fuel to add to the fire, especially the older Lexus, which, pardon my word usage here, were shamelessly rebadged Toyotas from Japan.
RX is not a rebadged Harrier. First off the RX was indeed made for the US market mostly, as the first luxury based SUV. It was then rebadged as a HArrier as there was no dealer network in Japan.
Older Lexus were NOT shamelessly rebadged, where are you getting this? The ES 250 and LX 450 were the only blatant rebdadges, everything else was designed to be a Lexus and sold as a Lexus worldwide except in Japan (again no dealer network).
Don't misunderstand me. Toyota and Lexus are good companies but for Lexus to be taken more seriously globally they need to really distance themselves from Toyota. In todays world information like this spreads like the speed of light thanks to electronic communication (internet etc.). There are many sensitive people out there, I imagine, that can't live with a Lexus because there's too close a relationship to Toyota cars. The new Landcruiser for example shares the same seat configuration buttons as the LS460/LS600h. I personally am not offended by this, but some folks are.
I agree and Lexus recognizes this, and continues to seperate. But we both know how conservative BOTH companies are, so don't hold your breathe for any amazingly different changes. Its amazing we got the IS-F quite frankly. That is what makes Lexus great but is also a major beef with people. Too conservative. And quite frankly look at the LS 600hL, it shares nothing with a Toyota and haters and people will still call it "a fancy Toyota"
No offense, but the bulk of Lexus sales are in the US and most of these are generated by the RX and ES. When you look at the figures BMW or Mercedes reach in terms of global sales, the 4th place Lexus occupies doesn't look that glitzy. Audi is the rising star from Germany and their global sales are increasing at a rapid pace. I believe BMW and Mercedes sell over a million or 1.5 million cars globally while Lexus total sales are something around 200,000-400,000. Correct me if I am wrong.
The bulk of EVERYONES sales are in the USA, its everyone biggest/most profitable market. I totally agree though that LExus was made for America first where its success has shown and much less in Europe where tastes are MUCH different.
I like Lexus a lot, but I like to be objective too. Lexus is a young brand and in my honest opinion they can learn many things from their rivals, just like their rivals learned many things from them.
Correct sir!
Automotive nationalism is a major factor in Europe, true, but how do you explain the impressive sales of expensive European luxury cars in Japan compared to Lexus? The only Lexus which really sells well in Japan is the LS, I believe. The rest are hardly a blip on the radar screen. I think Lexus made the mistake of offering certain products in the Japanese market which the Japanese cannot relate to. For example, why would someone buy an RX when you can get a Toyota Harrier for less money and most likely the same features? If we're honest, this is something of a major blooper on Lexus behalf.
Japan is VERY much concerned about image. Ask the guys that post from there. From name brand clothes, to gadgets to cars, the status quo gets the $$$$$. Lexus does have opportunities in Japan, but ROme was not built in a day.
It's always a question of how much an individual needs and desires. A young college student might prefer the sportier and sportier sounding nature of a BMW 320i than the old-man image a V6 Lexus ES offers. A BMW 320i might loose out to an older V6 ES in a race, but when the corners start appearing the BMW can use its handling advantage to gain on the Lexus and eventually perhaps overtake it. 4-cylinder engines have their charms too, especially from BMW. It's always a question of the individual. You cannot assume that everyone will automatically take the more refined ES with a V6 over a 4-cylinder 320i. Engines don't necessarily sell cars. It's the whole package. The 4-cyl. 320i appeals to a certain crowd, the ES V6 to another.
I agree with you here for the most part.
Wrong, I'm afraid. Only the most familiar European magazines put performance above everything else, namely EVO (a very sports-biased car magazine), Fifth Gear and from Germany, Motorvision. Other magazines will test performance cars in a sporty fashion and review them accordingly, but the vast majority of German and British publications I've been exposed to review cars as how a normal person on the street would review them. What's the interior space like? Is the trunk big enough? Insurance and maintenance costs, what are they like? Magazines like Autozeitung, Autobild, L'Equipe and various British publications are aimed at the "common man" (the person who doesn't really value performance much) and inform him or her about the cars they're interested in and about the thing that matter. Performance is important to Europeans, but we're talking about normal performance. 0-60 times of under 10 seconds are completely acceptable here (and these cars have very good midrange acceleration ratings) whereas back home people would be calling them slow or underpowered etc.
I hope we're not at war here.
Nope, not war at all. I do disagree about Europe, they are very concerned about image, where people won't consider buying a car based solely on brand or perception.
DO you know what is helping LExus sales tons besides hybrids? Their used cars in EUrope. THey are cheap and people are experiencing first hand how good ownership is, even if its not as sporty as a BMW
09-10-08, 05:30 PM
#110
DustinV i am almost positie we have almost the same taste in cars haha. Since i have a 560, i can tell you the interior is just unbeatable for what it was, it was wide, open, materials were top notch and it just felt classy while offering comforts that came on as the years went by, well they looked like afterthought just added one keeping the same interior. The ls on the other hand felt built just as solid as the s class was almost like a cacoon (s/p) with its tighter cabin and everything within suh tight reach. And while worldwide sales o show germans have it, it is because Lexus was designed for America and people have to understand that different people want different things. If i lived in germany, i would drive a diesel 3 series, if i lived initaly i would drive an alfa romeo, and if in the UK, i would have a diesel s class, but here in the states i enjoy the large boat like sedans with their large muscular v8's. And back to the ORIGINAL topic, i would just like to say are both arre great cars and if i had the money i would buy the ls just because we have a history with them, besides the 560, our history with german cars has been unpleasant but then agian we haven't bought one in a long while so hopefully times have changed. If possible, i would buy neither a ls or s class because i would save the 40 something grand and buy an alfa 166
09-10-08, 08:09 PM
#111
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Posts: n/a
The success is Lexus is undeniable and SPECTACULAR. Now a global brand, promoted successfully at a huge number of events... the usual Lexus logos on the net at the U.S. open tennis , the pro golf events, Pebble Beach, Coach affiliation, etc., etc.
It's a study in brand development with a steady, consistent, and 'relentless pursuit'.
Agree 100%. Their management gets it. They left everyone else behind who's name wasn't Mercedes or BMW.
Having said all that it does seem to me that on the product side that Lexus is a quite conflicted. The 'sensible', quiet, refined, 'tidy ergonomics', effortlessness, and silky smooth ride is, to me, what defines Lexus. For Lexus to have then done the IS-F with its boy racer trim and loud exhaust is a bit like something Pontiac would do, and was, to me, odd. I think they could have done it in more of a Lexus way. The LF-A, well, we don't know exactly what will happen with it, but to go from the $110K LS600hL flagship to potentially a $200K+ exotic carbon fiber sports car also seems odd. I don't see how the LF-A helps Lexus at all really.
I also agree. I started a thread a couple years ago maybe 3 saying "should Toyota create another luxury brand, a sport one"? They had the resources. This way Lexus could stay true to its original roots and the new sport brand could go all out and be focused on sport. Instead we have a Lexus that tries sport (IS/GS) but gets overshadowed by the usual ES/LS/SUVs.
The IS-F had to stand out, otherwise people would just stick to the status quo. I am not 100% in love with the modifications but it is Japanese in execution!
The LF-A is to celebrate Toyotas F1 connection but yaaaawn
I was skeptical initially of their use of hybrid technology more on the 'effortlessness' track than straight fuel economy, but for the RX at least, it works. Gives people a bit more 'oomph' while making it even quieter and smoother, and not taking away ANY interior room. The GS450h is technically 'interesting' but the pathetic trunk space (apparently improved a lot for '09 somehow) was I expect a killer for many sales. And the LS600hL has some nice 'upscale' details, and I don't know why they put in AWD too as this vehicle is incredibly heavy and while quieter than an LS460L doesn't offer much except for the trim bits.
Well its been 3 years and Lexus is still the main luxury hybrid chair. These are all 1st gen cars, nearly living "studies" if you will. Not sure why Lexus decided to blend performance/sport with hybrids though. They could have made the hybrids all about efficiency and invested in more "F" cars. To me their hybrid push has been average at best.
But getting back to the thread topic, the LS400 and LS430 were STUNNING ATTACKS on the BMW/MB flagships. Stunning in interior (and LS400 blew away the S and 7 series interiors at the time) and refinement. But BMW and MB have stepped up, with MB getting MUCH more assertive about interior design. I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks the 7 and S interiors are the same is blind or also thinks a Yaris and LS interior are similar too. Yes the 7 and S have the nav screen 'on top' because that makes sense given they're not touch screens, but the 7 has the instruments and screen in two ugly humps while the S has the screen area flow out of the instrument area. The S center stack has more wood and the extesion to the passenger area flows up in a curve vs. the "2x4" in the 7 series.
Sorry the design IMO looks way to similar, the main difference is the 7 has aged like crap and has way to make lines and angles and the S is more "flowing". The S class does not remind me of a 100k car. That dash needs work. The LS is superior IMO, it seems like a complete interior, not a dash with some NAV and a **** and some seats like the other two. \
As for quality I couldn't really see any serious cost cutting, the LS 460 interior seems just as good as the 430 to me. I do agree the 430 interior is easier on the eyes and just seems nearly perfect in execution.
BUT, Lexus has taken a turn - the LS460 interior shows clear signs of 'cost accounting' vs. the LS430 interior. The LS430 interior is soft and rich while the LS460 looks busy and quick plasticky.
Lexus needs a SERIOUS upgrade to the LS interior to remain competitive. The LS is a GREAT car. Putting the money difference aside, the S class is a GREATER car though.
I don't see the S class as the greater car. I see both as equals, the S-class just being more prestigious and more "in your face" with the design. I cannot lie and say that the S-class does not appeal to me. It does on the premise that "its the S-class", which speaks volumes. The LS stills seems the more "rational" choice, not the emotional one.
Lets look at the engines though.
It takes Lexus 4.6 liters to make 380hp.
It takes Benz 5.5 liters to make 382 hp.
, the pro golf events, Pebble Beach, Coach affiliation, etc., etc.It's a study in brand development with a steady, consistent, and 'relentless pursuit'.
Agree 100%. Their management gets it. They left everyone else behind who's name wasn't Mercedes or BMW.
Having said all that it does seem to me that on the product side that Lexus is a quite conflicted. The 'sensible', quiet, refined, 'tidy ergonomics', effortlessness, and silky smooth ride is, to me, what defines Lexus. For Lexus to have then done the IS-F with its boy racer trim and loud exhaust is a bit like something Pontiac would do, and was, to me, odd. I think they could have done it in more of a Lexus way. The LF-A, well, we don't know exactly what will happen with it, but to go from the $110K LS600hL flagship to potentially a $200K+ exotic carbon fiber sports car also seems odd. I don't see how the LF-A helps Lexus at all really.
I also agree. I started a thread a couple years ago maybe 3 saying "should Toyota create another luxury brand, a sport one"? They had the resources. This way Lexus could stay true to its original roots and the new sport brand could go all out and be focused on sport. Instead we have a Lexus that tries sport (IS/GS) but gets overshadowed by the usual ES/LS/SUVs.
The IS-F had to stand out, otherwise people would just stick to the status quo. I am not 100% in love with the modifications but it is Japanese in execution!
The LF-A is to celebrate Toyotas F1 connection but yaaaawn
I was skeptical initially of their use of hybrid technology more on the 'effortlessness' track than straight fuel economy, but for the RX at least, it works. Gives people a bit more 'oomph' while making it even quieter and smoother, and not taking away ANY interior room. The GS450h is technically 'interesting' but the pathetic trunk space (apparently improved a lot for '09 somehow) was I expect a killer for many sales. And the LS600hL has some nice 'upscale' details, and I don't know why they put in AWD too as this vehicle is incredibly heavy and while quieter than an LS460L doesn't offer much except for the trim bits.
Well its been 3 years and Lexus is still the main luxury hybrid chair. These are all 1st gen cars, nearly living "studies" if you will. Not sure why Lexus decided to blend performance/sport with hybrids though. They could have made the hybrids all about efficiency and invested in more "F" cars. To me their hybrid push has been average at best.
But getting back to the thread topic,
the LS400 and LS430 were STUNNING ATTACKS on the BMW/MB flagships. Stunning in interior (and LS400 blew away the S and 7 series interiors at the time) and refinement. But BMW and MB have stepped up, with MB getting MUCH more assertive about interior design. I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks the 7 and S interiors are the same is blind or also thinks a Yaris and LS interior are similar too. Yes the 7 and S have the nav screen 'on top' because that makes sense given they're not touch screens, but the 7 has the instruments and screen in two ugly humps while the S has the screen area flow out of the instrument area. The S center stack has more wood and the extesion to the passenger area flows up in a curve vs. the "2x4" in the 7 series.Sorry the design IMO looks way to similar, the main difference is the 7 has aged like crap and has way to make lines and angles and the S is more "flowing". The S class does not remind me of a 100k car. That dash needs work. The LS is superior IMO, it seems like a complete interior, not a dash with some NAV and a **** and some seats like the other two. \
As for quality I couldn't really see any serious cost cutting, the LS 460 interior seems just as good as the 430 to me. I do agree the 430 interior is easier on the eyes and just seems nearly perfect in execution.
BUT, Lexus has taken a turn - the LS460 interior shows clear signs of 'cost accounting' vs. the LS430 interior. The LS430 interior is soft and rich while the LS460 looks busy and quick plasticky.
Lexus needs a SERIOUS upgrade to the LS interior to remain competitive. The LS is a GREAT car. Putting the money difference aside, the S class is a GREATER car though.
I don't see the S class as the greater car. I see both as equals, the S-class just being more prestigious and more "in your face" with the design. I cannot lie and say that the S-class does not appeal to me. It does on the premise that "its the S-class", which speaks volumes. The LS stills seems the more "rational" choice, not the emotional one.
Lets look at the engines though.
It takes Lexus 4.6 liters to make 380hp.
It takes Benz 5.5 liters to make 382 hp.
Good post Paul!!
09-10-08, 10:34 PM
#112
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Thanks Mike!
Another S vs. LS thing I've noticed... on local TV here and in the paper I've seen ads for "$10,000 off" an LS, and I've seen the ads saying "starting at $64K" or something like that. I think a price THAT LOW and advertising like that *hurts* the LS. It's not much more expensive than a loaded GS. You never see ads like that for an S class.
I think if Lexus works at it, it can OUTDO all marques even like BENTLEY in interior design (yes I know that's VW these days, right, but still, if you've seen one, it's pretty special with the wood, leather, chrome, old fashioned *****, etc.). I'm not saying they need to go retro, just an example there. I think the LS460 is *close* to GREAT.
Just took a quick swag at some minor LS interior changes.
I don't like how high that plastic center trim goes so I stopped is above the buttons.
I think the LS can do better than a 50c clock between the vents.
I also made the vents a bit smaller.
Finally I put some wood between the climate buttons and nav screen.
(Yeah I know I'm not great image editor, but it's just an idea)
Before/after:
Another S vs. LS thing I've noticed... on local TV here and in the paper I've seen ads for "$10,000 off" an LS, and I've seen the ads saying "starting at $64K" or something like that. I think a price THAT LOW and advertising like that *hurts* the LS. It's not much more expensive than a loaded GS. You never see ads like that for an S class.
I think if Lexus works at it, it can OUTDO all marques even like BENTLEY in interior design (yes I know that's VW these days, right, but still, if you've seen one, it's pretty special with the wood, leather, chrome, old fashioned *****, etc.). I'm not saying they need to go retro, just an example there. I think the LS460 is *close* to GREAT.
Just took a quick swag at some minor LS interior changes.
I don't like how high that plastic center trim goes so I stopped is above the buttons.
I think the LS can do better than a 50c clock between the vents.
I also made the vents a bit smaller.
Finally I put some wood between the climate buttons and nav screen.
(Yeah I know I'm not great image editor, but it's just an idea)
Before/after:
09-11-08, 02:07 AM
#113
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This is correct. The Lexus Hybrid does not remotely offer acceleration comparable to an S600... Lexus might try to argue that it is comparable to the older V12 7-series (which is being dropped) or the W12 A8, but it is simply not in the same league as the S600. (That it was explicitly designed to compete with - even down to the 600 nomenclature)
To claim "hybrid performance" credentials only makes sense within the context of what the car is competing against... (A contemporary V6 Camry would be a performance car 20 years ago!) The LS600h has no performance advantages over a cheaper S550... and few over the cheaper LS460... its economy advantages are small and overstated... so what are you getting for all the extra money then? AWD? Otherwise you can get most of the comforts in a fully packaged LS460...
I am not hating on the LS600h. It is a very luxurious car and I liked it when comparing it to the S600. To state though that it is comparable to its V!2 competitors in performance or substantive fuel efficiency is a misrepresentation. If Lexus had toned down their "comparable to a V12" marketing and called it the LS500h they would have been more honest. The hybrid technology is distinctive enough to stand on its own merits.
Chris
To claim "hybrid performance" credentials only makes sense within the context of what the car is competing against... (A contemporary V6 Camry would be a performance car 20 years ago!) The LS600h has no performance advantages over a cheaper S550... and few over the cheaper LS460... its economy advantages are small and overstated... so what are you getting for all the extra money then? AWD? Otherwise you can get most of the comforts in a fully packaged LS460...
I am not hating on the LS600h. It is a very luxurious car and I liked it when comparing it to the S600. To state though that it is comparable to its V!2 competitors in performance or substantive fuel efficiency is a misrepresentation. If Lexus had toned down their "comparable to a V12" marketing and called it the LS500h they would have been more honest. The hybrid technology is distinctive enough to stand on its own merits.
Chris
I am not a fan of the LS600h possibly because of the way it is marketed. It's a gimmick, obviously and by targeting the S600, Lexus marketeers have a done a great job of making the LS600h look "cleaner", when in reality, this overweight and overpowered luxury sedan is just as thirsty in the right conditions as some of its rivals. Autobild tested the S600 and LS600h head-to-head a few months ago and as I recall the LS600h obviously had the better fuel economy when driven normally. On the Autobahn at a constant 180 kph, both the S600 and LS600h needed in excess of a figure of about 18 liters per 100 km.
09-11-08, 02:11 AM
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09-11-08, 02:46 AM
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Keep in mind that Lexus cars were designed for the US market and appeals to Americans. Well-equipped, good price (well, they used to have better prices) and quality. European cars are designed to appeal to not only Americans, but the rest of the world. Lexus cars fall short of that in the global scene for the most part.
No smaller Audi, Benz or BMW competes with a Toyota in Europe. If they did, then it would be Audi A4 vs MB C class vs BMW 3er vs Lexus IS vs Toyota Avensis - doesn't work that way. Somebody who shops for a Toyota will automatically be interested in different aspects such as value-for-money, which will be a priority for instance.
People considering a B class or 1 series are not going to go over to their Toyota dealer to check out the Corolla Verso. Furthermore, the A or B classes are more practical and versatile than a Corolla Verso or other Toyota products. The Germans are very ingenious when it comes to getting the most out of cabin and trunk space, in my experience. The A3, 1 series and A/B classes are also great for towing small boats etc. Take a trip down to Italy sometime, near the Lago di Garda which is infested with German tourists. They all travel down there with their R classes or A/B classes and they're often towing either a trailer with a small boat or a small mobile home. Yes, the A and B classes can actually tow something like that. Very versatile cars.
I go back to my point on how the Germans want to continue to "fool" people here that they only sell uplevel cars. Take the new 1 series for instance. We only get the coupe, we only get 6 cylinder engines. This same car is offered with low hp 4 cylinders, diesels AND A HATCHBACK.
I can't believe the Japanese are fooling people with Lexus cars. I mean they're just rebadged Toyotas underneath and share so many parts with them, too.
Just a different twist.
I must remind you that 4-cylinders and diesels are nothing to be ashamed about in a premium car in Europe. Traditionally the European brands have been very innovative in regards to creating new classes of vehicles. BMW and Mercedes popularized the compact premium car in form of the BMW 3er and MB 190 for instance.
Tell me, do you really think an older couple want a 130i sedan when they can get a more efficient 116i sedan? Why do you assume that everyone who shops for a premium car needs a powerful engine? They don't. In Europe there are many people who buy a premium car based on requirements. It's always a question of costs and wants and needs. How much do people drive? If you don't drive a lot then what are you doing with a 130i? A 116i is better suited to you. And this is exactly what is going on here in Europe and other places.
Changing situations call for luxury brands to change their ways too. The German luxury brands are doing this in form of the A3, 1er and A/B classes. These cars are very popular in Europe as they also come with the traditional values of their respective brands. Lexus isn't following this trend and can suffer because of it, especially in Europe. Lexus is remaining uncompetitive in much of Western Europe due to their refusal to enter certain niches and offering more efficient motors. Russia is an exception because of factors such as growing wealth, cheap gas and the willingness to try new products. It's only now, in this time, that the Russians are able to experience European and Japanese luxury cars to the fullest.
I've already told you about how the Japanese manipulate the prices of their products in North America through their buying of American Dollars by the shipload which keeps their currency artificially weak and enables their products to be cheaper in North America. Furthermore, Toyota can afford to sell Lexus products for less money. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota actually sold Lexus cars at a loss for the sole reason to gain market share, especially early on (1989 and early 1990s). Theoretically, they could afford to.
The Germans have CLEARLY STATED and CONTINUE to state, they are chasing sales, thus the move downmarket, to more SAV/SUVs and niche sales. They want to sell more cars. Lexus has never stated this. Their feeling is we will build competitive cars and if they HAPPEN to be best selling, that is great.
Downmarket? What exactly is downmarket? The X3? The GLK? These are interesting products with a bright future ahead of them in the US - and Lexus is missing out. What about the Z4 or SLK or TT? Lexus doesn't have a single car in their lineup which appeals to the younger crowd with the exception of the IS and IS-F, which are still out of financial reach of younger, yet well-off buyers. There is clearly a market for smaller and "fun" luxury cars which the Germans have covered and are very successful in. In Europe alone, there is a huge demand for the GLK because it is an appealing vehicle and comes with many different engine variants and trim choices.
In Europe, the 1 series or A class or B class are not considered downmarket vehicles. They're considered premium vehicles. You might find this hard to understand but the European luxury buyer has different expectations from the American one. I am an American, I know what people back home want, which is generally a well-equipped car with lots of fancy features, a powerful engine and then the mix of value, quality and the feeling of having been successful with their purchase. The European consumer looks at this formula from a different perspective. They don't want a car overloaded with features that they will never use and increase the weight of the vehicle. They don't need a powerful engine because of countless reasons. These are just some things that distinguish the American and European consumer.
The world does not work like we're used to reading on these forums. Just because 9 out of 10 Club Lexus members find the X3 or GLK, 1 series or A class ugly doesn't mean it will flop. The people out there, the market, they know what they want and they see it in these cars and the market research of the Germans has assured them that there is a market for these cars in North America, Europe and elsewhere.
Lexus might not want to offer a small car in North America, but for Europe it is almost a requirement. That and diesels and efficient motors. Lexus is not being competitive enough here.
No offense.
09-11-08, 03:31 AM
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RX is not a rebadged Harrier. First off the RX was indeed made for the US market mostly, as the first luxury based SUV. It was then rebadged as a HArrier as there was no dealer network in Japan.
Older Lexus were NOT shamelessly rebadged, where are you getting this? The ES 250 and LX 450 were the only blatant rebdadges, everything else was designed to be a Lexus and sold as a Lexus worldwide except in Japan (again no dealer network).
Older Lexus were NOT shamelessly rebadged, where are you getting this? The ES 250 and LX 450 were the only blatant rebdadges, everything else was designed to be a Lexus and sold as a Lexus worldwide except in Japan (again no dealer network).
I agree and Lexus recognizes this, and continues to seperate. But we both know how conservative BOTH companies are, so don't hold your breathe for any amazingly different changes. Its amazing we got the IS-F quite frankly. That is what makes Lexus great but is also a major beef with people. Too conservative. And quite frankly look at the LS 600hL, it shares nothing with a Toyota and haters and people will still call it "a fancy Toyota"
The interesting thing about Japan is that European and American luxury marques are practically worshiped there. The appeal of a BMW or Benz with LHD steering is just insane. The Japanese will even go as far as to tanning their left arm to indicate that they drive a LHD car, which automatically means an imported and expensive European or American luxury car.
09-11-08, 03:38 AM
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DustinV i am almost positie we have almost the same taste in cars haha. Since i have a 560, i can tell you the interior is just unbeatable for what it was, it was wide, open, materials were top notch and it just felt classy while offering comforts that came on as the years went by, well they looked like afterthought just added one keeping the same interior. The ls on the other hand felt built just as solid as the s class was almost like a cacoon (s/p) with its tighter cabin and everything within suh tight reach. And while worldwide sales o show germans have it, it is because Lexus was designed for America and people have to understand that different people want different things. If i lived in germany, i would drive a diesel 3 series, if i lived initaly i would drive an alfa romeo, and if in the UK, i would have a diesel s class, but here in the states i enjoy the large boat like sedans with their large muscular v8's. And back to the ORIGINAL topic, i would just like to say are both arre great cars and if i had the money i would buy the ls just because we have a history with them, besides the 560, our history with german cars has been unpleasant but then agian we haven't bought one in a long while so hopefully times have changed. If possible, i would buy neither a ls or s class because i would save the 40 something grand and buy an alfa 166
Good to hear!
Well, I've always liked the W126 S class ever since my father had that 300SD Turbodiesel. I grew up in that car and just being a passenger in it was a superb experience. I can only imagine what a 560SEL must feel like! The quiet V8 that rumbles when you floor it, the instant surge of power, wow. Must be quite something!
Then the LS400 came along in 1989 and it instantly became another one of my favorites. A great car, clearly more modern than the W126 but as much as I love it, the interior has always bugged me. I find the exterior of the LS400 to be very conservative, yet sporty and clearly Japanese in design. It looks premium and expensive. The interior, though, while well-made, was simply the biggest let down for me. Not so much because of the materials, which were good, but because the design was so plain and lacking in elegance and class, something that the W126 interior had an abundance of. Overall, the W126 was simply the more warmer and inviting vehicle on the inside.
Again, I love both the LS400 and the W126 S class. Both cars are so similar and yet so different in many ways. And right now, I like every single car offered in this class: the LS, S, A8, XJ and the new BMW 7er, they're all amazing.
09-11-08, 03:55 AM
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Thanks Mike!
Another S vs. LS thing I've noticed... on local TV here and in the paper I've seen ads for "$10,000 off" an LS, and I've seen the ads saying "starting at $64K" or something like that. I think a price THAT LOW and advertising like that *hurts* the LS. It's not much more expensive than a loaded GS. You never see ads like that for an S class.
I think if Lexus works at it, it can OUTDO all marques even like BENTLEY in interior design (yes I know that's VW these days, right, but still, if you've seen one, it's pretty special with the wood, leather, chrome, old fashioned *****, etc.). I'm not saying they need to go retro, just an example there. I think the LS460 is *close* to GREAT.
Just took a quick swag at some minor LS interior changes.
I don't like how high that plastic center trim goes so I stopped is above the buttons.
I think the LS can do better than a 50c clock between the vents.
I also made the vents a bit smaller.
Finally I put some wood between the climate buttons and nav screen.
(Yeah I know I'm not great image editor, but it's just an idea)
Before/after:
Another S vs. LS thing I've noticed... on local TV here and in the paper I've seen ads for "$10,000 off" an LS, and I've seen the ads saying "starting at $64K" or something like that. I think a price THAT LOW and advertising like that *hurts* the LS. It's not much more expensive than a loaded GS. You never see ads like that for an S class.
I think if Lexus works at it, it can OUTDO all marques even like BENTLEY in interior design (yes I know that's VW these days, right, but still, if you've seen one, it's pretty special with the wood, leather, chrome, old fashioned *****, etc.). I'm not saying they need to go retro, just an example there. I think the LS460 is *close* to GREAT.
Just took a quick swag at some minor LS interior changes.
I don't like how high that plastic center trim goes so I stopped is above the buttons.
I think the LS can do better than a 50c clock between the vents.
I also made the vents a bit smaller.
Finally I put some wood between the climate buttons and nav screen.
(Yeah I know I'm not great image editor, but it's just an idea)
Before/after:
Or how about just a simple old-fashioned analog clock?
I suck even more at photoshop.
09-11-08, 07:10 AM
#119
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Toyota global sales are more than impressive, but I would never compare the sales of a mainstream manufacturer like Toyota to those of luxury brands. Cheaper cars will sell in larger numbers.
Now that would be awesome! Lexus becomes the number one luxury car maker overnight!
Now that would be awesome! Lexus becomes the number one luxury car maker overnight!
The logo on the car does not mean too much for those that know & understand about cars, you can't say, for example, that buying an A or B class is even remotely the same in affordability & prestige as buying a E or S-class even though they all carry the Mercedes Benz logo.
If Toyota makes the same A or B class cars & sell them at the same price, they would have been Toyota's, not Lexus. That's why I say in my above post that globally, it's not apples to apples comparison . The composition of the lineups of their models globally are too different to be legitimately compared directly.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 09-11-08 at 07:21 AM.
09-11-08, 07:15 AM
#120
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