Originally Posted by bitkahuna

Thanks Mike!

Another S vs. LS thing I've noticed... on local TV here and in the paper I've seen ads for "$10,000 off" an LS, and I've seen the ads saying "starting at $64K" or something like that. I think a price THAT LOW and advertising like that *hurts* the LS. It's not much more expensive than a loaded GS. You never see ads like that for an S class.

I think if Lexus works at it, it can OUTDO all marques even like BENTLEY in interior design (yes I know that's VW these days, right, but still, if you've seen one, it's pretty special with the wood, leather, chrome, old fashioned *****, etc.). I'm not saying they need to go retro, just an example there. I think the LS460 is *close* to GREAT.

Just took a quick swag at some minor LS interior changes.

I don't like how high that plastic center trim goes so I stopped is above the buttons.

I think the LS can do better than a 50c clock between the vents.

I also made the vents a bit smaller.

Finally I put some wood between the climate buttons and nav screen.

(Yeah I know I'm not great image editor, but it's just an idea)

Before/after:

Originally Posted by DASHOCKER

Excellent & informative posts by Dustin V It is great to see members thinking outside of the (enter brand) box.

Originally Posted by Gojirra99

Sorry but that's an eyesore to me, the analog clock on the S-class dash is also one of the thing I hated the most on that car's interior. Different taste I guess

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX

People that bish about the clock in a car need to go to Hooters or something....Its a clock....a clock...in a car...analog, digital....its not that serious.....

We have watches and phones with the time. A clock? In a phone.

I'll be impressed when there is an OEM grandfather clock in a car. Now that would be impressive.

Originally Posted by DustinV

China is overtaking the US as the largest market for automobiles. I can see India and Russia eventually turning into large automotive markets as well.

Yes, Brazil is going to be big too and other key emerging markets.
Keep in mind that Lexus cars were designed for the US market and appeals to Americans. Well-equipped, good price (well, they used to have better prices) and quality. European cars are designed to appeal to not only Americans, but the rest of the world. Lexus cars fall short of that in the global scene for the most part.

I agree/disagree here. I think Euro cars are so desirable, that it clearly doesn't matter what they build or where htey build it people want them. So its not just the fact they make cars for the world. The world wants Euro cars.




The Germans also sell a lot of cars in Africa, Asia, North America, Oceania and above all in South America, a market Toyota hasn't really been able to crack, much less Lexus. South America belongs to the Germans. VW is extremely big there. They may have lost some market share in China, true, but VW has a strong hold on the South American market. Mercedes has truck or bus manufacturing facilities down there, I believe and owns a large chunk of the truck market as well as the small but steadily growing luxury market.

I don't disagree here. The Germans have sold cars for decades now in markets that Toyota/LExus either don't compete well or try to export a car there that isn't designed for that market.


No. These are cars Lexus has no competition for in Europe.

No smaller Audi, Benz or BMW competes with a Toyota in Europe. If they did, then it would be Audi A4 vs MB C class vs BMW 3er vs Lexus IS vs Toyota Avensis - doesn't work that way. Somebody who shops for a Toyota will automatically be interested in different aspects such as value-for-money, which will be a priority for instance.

This arguement goes both ways. Lexus doesn't compete b/c well, they have Toyota vehicles in this segment. Toyota/Lexus tries not to compete in the same market and they continue to try to seperate the brands and cars.

People considering a B class or 1 series are not going to go over to their Toyota dealer to check out the Corolla Verso. Furthermore, the A or B classes are more practical and versatile than a Corolla Verso or other Toyota products. The Germans are very ingenious when it comes to getting the most out of cabin and trunk space, in my experience. The A3, 1 series and A/B classes are also great for towing small boats etc. Take a trip down to Italy sometime, near the Lago di Garda which is infested with German tourists. They all travel down there with their R classes or A/B classes and they're often towing either a trailer with a small boat or a small mobile home. Yes, the A and B classes can actually tow something like that. Very versatile cars.

You can tow a canoe with the cars you mentioned, not a boat The fact is, they are economy cars for the most part BUT with the "badge/image" so people put them on a pedestal. The Germans stated, all 3, they want to SELL MORE CARS and that meant going downmarket.

Its hard to compare apples to apples here b/c again, Lexus has Toyota to compete in this segment. Audi does have VW, BMW/Benz don't have a bigger owner. BMW does sell Mini in this segment.

We both know the Euro market is VASTLY different to here. I just don't think Lexus knows what to do yet outside of offering more hybrids. They seem to want to expand sales in Europe but avoiding the sub entry level market. It will be tough to suceed without it.



Let's take this argument and twist it a bit, shall we?

I can't believe the Japanese are fooling people with Lexus cars. I mean they're just rebadged Toyotas underneath and share so many parts with them, too.

Just a different twist.

I must remind you that 4-cylinders and diesels are nothing to be ashamed about in a premium car in Europe. Traditionally the European brands have been very innovative in regards to creating new classes of vehicles. BMW and Mercedes popularized the compact premium car in form of the BMW 3er and MB 190 for instance.

Tell me, do you really think an older couple want a 130i sedan when they can get a more efficient 116i sedan? Why do you assume that everyone who shops for a premium car needs a powerful engine? They don't. In Europe there are many people who buy a premium car based on requirements. It's always a question of costs and wants and needs. How much do people drive? If you don't drive a lot then what are you doing with a 130i? A 116i is better suited to you. And this is exactly what is going on here in Europe and other places.

I am completely aware of the Euro market. We both know its very different to here. It is clear though, people want "image/prestige" of a BMW/Benz/Audi, even if it battles a Mini/VW/Toyota.

Changing situations call for luxury brands to change their ways too. The German luxury brands are doing this in form of the A3, 1er and A/B classes. These cars are very popular in Europe as they also come with the traditional values of their respective brands. Lexus isn't following this trend and can suffer because of it, especially in Europe. Lexus is remaining uncompetitive in much of Western Europe due to their refusal to enter certain niches and offering more efficient motors. Russia is an exception because of factors such as growing wealth, cheap gas and the willingness to try new products. It's only now, in this time, that the Russians are able to experience European and Japanese luxury cars to the fullest.

I agree and back to my previous point, it seems Lexus DOES NOT want to change thier vision in Europe by offering cars Toyota competes in. So one one end it helps prestige, on the other end, a lot of sales are lost. ITs part of the reason a "cute-ute" hasn't been offered here. So it will hurt wiht sales by not having hatches etc. THey seem to be going to depend on hybrids and not diesels. Will it work? Not sure, hybrids are still niche products outside the Prius/Civic.




Again, overpriced? These cars are made in Germany, which has some of the highest wage rates in the world. Add to that the relationship with between the American Dollar and the Euro and the prestige pricing which BMW can charge and there you have it.

I've already told you about how the Japanese manipulate the prices of their products in North America through their buying of American Dollars by the shipload which keeps their currency artificially weak and enables their products to be cheaper in North America. Furthermore, Toyota can afford to sell Lexus products for less money. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota actually sold Lexus cars at a loss for the sole reason to gain market share, especially early on (1989 and early 1990s). Theoretically, they could afford to.

I can understand market penetration in 89/90/91 but the yen went nuts when the Japanese economy went to crap and no way Toyota was subsidizing those losses. When the govt was going to impose 100% tariff in 1995/96, Lexus was going to leave the American market.

I feel the LExus is priced where it should and sometimes the Germans price higher than they should, if they are just going to offer lease deals and in BMWs case, 4k avg incentives to sell the cars.

Looking at Toyotas profits, Lexus is a huge part of that. The more expensive the car, usually the bigger the profit


I think you need a small reality check here. Lexus might not have stated this but they're in this business to make money through sales just like everyone else. Lexus thinks that they can sell their cars based on reputation but that won't be enough in other markets. Their cars have gotten very pricey as of late and small Lexus products with smaller engines are needed that offer these customers typical Lexus traits.


Everyone thinks they can sell on reputation, Leuxs has

Downmarket? What exactly is downmarket? The X3? The GLK? These are interesting products with a bright future ahead of them in the US - and Lexus is missing out. What about the Z4 or SLK or TT? Lexus doesn't have a single car in their lineup which appeals to the younger crowd with the exception of the IS and IS-F, which are still out of financial reach of younger, yet well-off buyers. There is clearly a market for smaller and "fun" luxury cars which the Germans have covered and are very successful in. In Europe alone, there is a huge demand for the GLK because it is an appealing vehicle and comes with many different engine variants and trim choices.

Europe has the "American bug" b/c SUV sales are growing, at the expense of saloons and estates I agree that Lexus does not appeal to the young like the Germans. I have given tons of credit to them for offering tons of options and coupes. BMW has the 1 AND 3 coupe in the 30-40k range! Lexus has none since the original SC 300

In Europe, the 1 series or A class or B class are not considered downmarket vehicles. They're considered premium vehicles. You might find this hard to understand but the European luxury buyer has different expectations from the American one. I am an American, I know what people back home want, which is generally a well-equipped car with lots of fancy features, a powerful engine and then the mix of value, quality and the feeling of having been successful with their purchase. The European consumer looks at this formula from a different perspective. They don't want a car overloaded with features that they will never use and increase the weight of the vehicle. They don't need a powerful engine because of countless reasons. These are just some things that distinguish the American and European consumer.


They are considered premium b/c of badge first, merits second. I do agree though, you surely have more insight than I do living in Europe currently and I agree the 2 consumers are different, so I will concede

The world does not work like we're used to reading on these forums. Just because 9 out of 10 Club Lexus members find the X3 or GLK, 1 series or A class ugly doesn't mean it will flop. The people out there, the market, they know what they want and they see it in these cars and the market research of the Germans has assured them that there is a market for these cars in North America, Europe and elsewhere.

I know this but the sales numbers speak, its not about what people "think". Lexus has stated they do not want this market b/c the sales figures don't make sense. Infiniti for instance wanted to sel 36k EXs and are on pace for maybe 15k. Acura never hit sales goals with the RDX either.

To be fair, the German cute utes are priced on par with the RX, they are just smaller.
Lexus might not want to offer a small car in North America, but for Europe it is almost a requirement. That and diesels and efficient motors. Lexus is not being competitive enough here.



No offense.

Originally Posted by DustinV

China is overtaking the US as the largest market for automobiles. I can see India and Russia eventually turning into large automotive markets as well.

Keep in mind that Lexus cars were designed for the US market and appeals to Americans. Well-equipped, good price (well, they used to have better prices) and quality. European cars are designed to appeal to not only Americans, but the rest of the world. Lexus cars fall short of that in the global scene for the most part.




The Germans also sell a lot of cars in Africa, Asia, North America, Oceania and above all in South America, a market Toyota hasn't really been able to crack, much less Lexus. South America belongs to the Germans. VW is extremely big there. They may have lost some market share in China, true, but VW has a strong hold on the South American market. Mercedes has truck or bus manufacturing facilities down there, I believe and owns a large chunk of the truck market as well as the small but steadily growing luxury market.





No. These are cars Lexus has no competition for in Europe.

No smaller Audi, Benz or BMW competes with a Toyota in Europe. If they did, then it would be Audi A4 vs MB C class vs BMW 3er vs Lexus IS vs Toyota Avensis - doesn't work that way. Somebody who shops for a Toyota will automatically be interested in different aspects such as value-for-money, which will be a priority for instance.

People considering a B class or 1 series are not going to go over to their Toyota dealer to check out the Corolla Verso. Furthermore, the A or B classes are more practical and versatile than a Corolla Verso or other Toyota products. The Germans are very ingenious when it comes to getting the most out of cabin and trunk space, in my experience. The A3, 1 series and A/B classes are also great for towing small boats etc. Take a trip down to Italy sometime, near the Lago di Garda which is infested with German tourists. They all travel down there with their R classes or A/B classes and they're often towing either a trailer with a small boat or a small mobile home. Yes, the A and B classes can actually tow something like that. Very versatile cars.





Let's take this argument and twist it a bit, shall we?

I can't believe the Japanese are fooling people with Lexus cars. I mean they're just rebadged Toyotas underneath and share so many parts with them, too.

Just a different twist.

I must remind you that 4-cylinders and diesels are nothing to be ashamed about in a premium car in Europe. Traditionally the European brands have been very innovative in regards to creating new classes of vehicles. BMW and Mercedes popularized the compact premium car in form of the BMW 3er and MB 190 for instance.

Tell me, do you really think an older couple want a 130i sedan when they can get a more efficient 116i sedan? Why do you assume that everyone who shops for a premium car needs a powerful engine? They don't. In Europe there are many people who buy a premium car based on requirements. It's always a question of costs and wants and needs. How much do people drive? If you don't drive a lot then what are you doing with a 130i? A 116i is better suited to you. And this is exactly what is going on here in Europe and other places.

Changing situations call for luxury brands to change their ways too. The German luxury brands are doing this in form of the A3, 1er and A/B classes. These cars are very popular in Europe as they also come with the traditional values of their respective brands. Lexus isn't following this trend and can suffer because of it, especially in Europe. Lexus is remaining uncompetitive in much of Western Europe due to their refusal to enter certain niches and offering more efficient motors. Russia is an exception because of factors such as growing wealth, cheap gas and the willingness to try new products. It's only now, in this time, that the Russians are able to experience European and Japanese luxury cars to the fullest.





Again, overpriced? These cars are made in Germany, which has some of the highest wage rates in the world. Add to that the relationship with between the American Dollar and the Euro and the prestige pricing which BMW can charge and there you have it.

I've already told you about how the Japanese manipulate the prices of their products in North America through their buying of American Dollars by the shipload which keeps their currency artificially weak and enables their products to be cheaper in North America. Furthermore, Toyota can afford to sell Lexus products for less money. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota actually sold Lexus cars at a loss for the sole reason to gain market share, especially early on (1989 and early 1990s). Theoretically, they could afford to.




I think you need a small reality check here. Lexus might not have stated this but they're in this business to make money through sales just like everyone else. Lexus thinks that they can sell their cars based on reputation but that won't be enough in other markets. Their cars have gotten very pricey as of late and small Lexus products with smaller engines are needed that offer these customers typical Lexus traits.

Downmarket? What exactly is downmarket? The X3? The GLK? These are interesting products with a bright future ahead of them in the US - and Lexus is missing out. What about the Z4 or SLK or TT? Lexus doesn't have a single car in their lineup which appeals to the younger crowd with the exception of the IS and IS-F, which are still out of financial reach of younger, yet well-off buyers. There is clearly a market for smaller and "fun" luxury cars which the Germans have covered and are very successful in. In Europe alone, there is a huge demand for the GLK because it is an appealing vehicle and comes with many different engine variants and trim choices.

In Europe, the 1 series or A class or B class are not considered downmarket vehicles. They're considered premium vehicles. You might find this hard to understand but the European luxury buyer has different expectations from the American one. I am an American, I know what people back home want, which is generally a well-equipped car with lots of fancy features, a powerful engine and then the mix of value, quality and the feeling of having been successful with their purchase. The European consumer looks at this formula from a different perspective. They don't want a car overloaded with features that they will never use and increase the weight of the vehicle. They don't need a powerful engine because of countless reasons. These are just some things that distinguish the American and European consumer.

The world does not work like we're used to reading on these forums. Just because 9 out of 10 Club Lexus members find the X3 or GLK, 1 series or A class ugly doesn't mean it will flop. The people out there, the market, they know what they want and they see it in these cars and the market research of the Germans has assured them that there is a market for these cars in North America, Europe and elsewhere.

Lexus might not want to offer a small car in North America, but for Europe it is almost a requirement. That and diesels and efficient motors. Lexus is not being competitive enough here.



No offense.

Originally Posted by DustinV

Hi JMD,

Good to hear!

Well, I've always liked the W126 S class ever since my father had that 300SD Turbodiesel. I grew up in that car and just being a passenger in it was a superb experience. I can only imagine what a 560SEL must feel like! The quiet V8 that rumbles when you floor it, the instant surge of power, wow. Must be quite something!

Then the LS400 came along in 1989 and it instantly became another one of my favorites. A great car, clearly more modern than the W126 but as much as I love it, the interior has always bugged me. I find the exterior of the LS400 to be very conservative, yet sporty and clearly Japanese in design. It looks premium and expensive. The interior, though, while well-made, was simply the biggest let down for me. Not so much because of the materials, which were good, but because the design was so plain and lacking in elegance and class, something that the W126 interior had an abundance of. Overall, the W126 was simply the more warmer and inviting vehicle on the inside.



Again, I love both the LS400 and the W126 S class. Both cars are so similar and yet so different in many ways. And right now, I like every single car offered in this class: the LS, S, A8, XJ and the new BMW 7er, they're all amazing.

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX

Good posts, you are wearing me out!!! Good show!!

Originally Posted by Gojirra99

Sorry but that's an eyesore to me, the analog clock on the S-class dash is also one of the thing I hated the most on that car's interior. Different taste I guess

Originally Posted by rominl

amen, i think it looks stupid

(so yes, part of the reason why my wife hates all infiniti)

Originally Posted by newr

LOL! if it was Acura, I don't think you would have given up..

A lot of info!!! Great thread everyone.

Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX

Lexus wants their interiors to be very techy, like how "Star Wars light sabers" influenced the needles in Lexus dials (that now everyone uses).

A random analog clock would look out of place, IMO. Besides, let Infiniti keep the clock.



His posts remind me of Udel, freaking 30 paragraphs...after like 2 sentences, I start tabbing for bewbies

Originally Posted by rominl

lol, possible. i still remember the first time when my wife saw the analog clock in infiniti. she said something like, "they want to make this an antique car?"

Originally Posted by bitkahuna

lol - well if it's just a clock, then if you like watches all you need is a Timex. But this is a luxury car. Maybe they should partner with Breitling or Rolex or something and do a GREAT timepiece for the car.

Originally Posted by GFerg

I never understood the problem about the clock in Lexus vehicles. People complain a lot about it. Why?? What is it suppose to look like?? Its easy to readand in a good location. Personally I hate analog clocks in cars. But what makes other digital clocks so high tech looking, yet Toyota/Lexus gets flack about there's? They all look the same to me.