Porsche accuses Nissan of falsifying GT-R Nurburgring lap times (& Nissan responds )
10-05-08, 11:00 PM
#76
Lexus Fanatic
you put it perfectly. They are pissed because they were beaten at their game, on their track. haha. I love japanese car dominance. I have been a fan since the 80's when they would have gotten their asses kicked. I loved them from the days of the datsun 510 to the days of the GTR. GODZILLA has arrived and nothing can stop him. even the ZO6, aka king kong, got its *** kicked on the track.
10-05-08, 11:14 PM
#77
Lexus Champion
I never trust a factory test. I never trust a magazine test. Why?
Way back in 1993 when the MkIV Supra was announced, C&D took their Supra (a red hard top) to the track. It ran 0-60 in 4.6 seconds and finished the 1/4 mile in 13.1 at 109 mph. No Supra owner ever got those times from his/her car when it was bone stock. No magazine ever got those times from ANY other Supra through 1998. Anyone familiar with Supras can tell you there were "ringer" ECMs used on those magazine test cars, just like anyone familiar with Supras can tell you how easy it is to add boost - and if you have access to the engine code, you can pretty much change anything you like as long as the engine will tolerate it.
So, believing magazine tests or Top Gear or anyone else in the media is straight out. They're all getting tuner specials. The real tests are exactly as Porsche has done - buy the car, take it to the track, run it, and see what it does.
And yes, the Lightening Lap is equally subject to ringers. Anything less would be uncivilized.
Way back in 1993 when the MkIV Supra was announced, C&D took their Supra (a red hard top) to the track. It ran 0-60 in 4.6 seconds and finished the 1/4 mile in 13.1 at 109 mph. No Supra owner ever got those times from his/her car when it was bone stock. No magazine ever got those times from ANY other Supra through 1998. Anyone familiar with Supras can tell you there were "ringer" ECMs used on those magazine test cars, just like anyone familiar with Supras can tell you how easy it is to add boost - and if you have access to the engine code, you can pretty much change anything you like as long as the engine will tolerate it.
So, believing magazine tests or Top Gear or anyone else in the media is straight out. They're all getting tuner specials. The real tests are exactly as Porsche has done - buy the car, take it to the track, run it, and see what it does.
And yes, the Lightening Lap is equally subject to ringers. Anything less would be uncivilized.
you put it perfectly. They are pissed because they were beaten at their game, on their track. haha. I love japanese car dominance. I have been a fan since the 80's when they would have gotten their asses kicked. I loved them from the days of the datsun 510 to the days of the GTR. GODZILLA has arrived and nothing can stop him. even the ZO6, aka king kong, got its *** kicked on the track.
Once the kids get a bit older and If I had more garage space I would buy both cars and use a GTR as a daily beater, thats my mentality on the GTR. The IS-F was way more refined than the GTR even though it lacked the power and they are both the same price here in Japan.
10-06-08, 07:17 AM
#78
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So lemme get this straight. All it takes is a claim from Porsche that they failed to reproduce the GT-R ring time and the walls around Nissan have come tumbling down as if some sort of Watergate conspiracy has been uncovered?
This is simply a bit of lonesome ammo that naysayers and haters can use to say. "See! It was all smoke and mirrors. I told you so."
This is simply a bit of lonesome ammo that naysayers and haters can use to say. "See! It was all smoke and mirrors. I told you so."
10-06-08, 03:48 PM
#79
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10-06-08, 05:42 PM
#80
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So lemme get this straight. All it takes is a claim from Porsche that they failed to reproduce the GT-R ring time and the walls around Nissan have come tumbling down as if some sort of Watergate conspiracy has been uncovered?
This is simply a bit of lonesome ammo that naysayers and haters can use to say. "See! It was all smoke and mirrors. I told you so."
This is simply a bit of lonesome ammo that naysayers and haters can use to say. "See! It was all smoke and mirrors. I told you so."
10-06-08, 07:39 PM
#81
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That's not enough "evidence" to overcome the consistency with which the GT-R has out-lapped the Porsche in almost every other test. Including the vid posted by YARDMAN22.^^^
10-06-08, 08:21 PM
#82
Lexus Champion
And BTW, I am no GTR hater(You say something that goes against what people are believing and it automaticaly make you a hater
) as I have owned a R33 and it was a great car for what it did. But I know the R35 is not what everyone is making it out to be and in time people will realise this as they become more available. I am also sure it is going to be a great car to tweak and will easily get 1000hp, but that is about all it will be good for, as was the R33.
10-06-08, 08:49 PM
#83
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I never trust a factory test. I never trust a magazine test. Why?
Way back in 1993 when the MkIV Supra was announced, C&D took their Supra (a red hard top) to the track. It ran 0-60 in 4.6 seconds and finished the 1/4 mile in 13.1 at 109 mph. No Supra owner ever got those times from his/her car when it was bone stock. No magazine ever got those times from ANY other Supra through 1998. Anyone familiar with Supras can tell you there were "ringer" ECMs used on those magazine test cars, just like anyone familiar with Supras can tell you how easy it is to add boost - and if you have access to the engine code, you can pretty much change anything you like as long as the engine will tolerate it.
So, believing magazine tests or Top Gear or anyone else in the media is straight out. They're all getting tuner specials. The real tests are exactly as Porsche has done - buy the car, take it to the track, run it, and see what it does.
And yes, the Lightening Lap is equally subject to ringers. Anything less would be uncivilized.
Way back in 1993 when the MkIV Supra was announced, C&D took their Supra (a red hard top) to the track. It ran 0-60 in 4.6 seconds and finished the 1/4 mile in 13.1 at 109 mph. No Supra owner ever got those times from his/her car when it was bone stock. No magazine ever got those times from ANY other Supra through 1998. Anyone familiar with Supras can tell you there were "ringer" ECMs used on those magazine test cars, just like anyone familiar with Supras can tell you how easy it is to add boost - and if you have access to the engine code, you can pretty much change anything you like as long as the engine will tolerate it.
So, believing magazine tests or Top Gear or anyone else in the media is straight out. They're all getting tuner specials. The real tests are exactly as Porsche has done - buy the car, take it to the track, run it, and see what it does.
And yes, the Lightening Lap is equally subject to ringers. Anything less would be uncivilized.
Last edited by TwiBlueG35; 10-07-08 at 12:05 AM.
10-07-08, 04:49 AM
#84
the only reason why I'd lean torwards porsche on this is because they underrate their own cars.
anything anyone says about their own product should be taken lightly and not for 100% truth.
If I said I worked for Yamaha and told you that my ATV with a 1,000 cc engine could lap the ring in 6 minutes and set a new record for any atv, would you believe me?
Always get a 3rd party to judge you.
The guinness book of world records won't put you in their record books unless they send out 3rd party officials to see and record you doing so.
otherwise I could say I had a stop watch and timed myself running around the world in 2 days and they'd have to let me in the books xD
let's lighten up and take this for what it's worth. just plain interesting fun!
anything anyone says about their own product should be taken lightly and not for 100% truth.
If I said I worked for Yamaha and told you that my ATV with a 1,000 cc engine could lap the ring in 6 minutes and set a new record for any atv, would you believe me?
Always get a 3rd party to judge you.
The guinness book of world records won't put you in their record books unless they send out 3rd party officials to see and record you doing so.
otherwise I could say I had a stop watch and timed myself running around the world in 2 days and they'd have to let me in the books xD
let's lighten up and take this for what it's worth. just plain interesting fun!
Last edited by nabbun; 10-07-08 at 04:53 AM.
10-07-08, 06:00 AM
#85
That was what Porsche thought Nissan had done. Have they proven it? No. What they have proven was that they couldn't duplicate what that particular driver did on that particular day with what they thought an irregular GT-R. Just because they couldn't do it, they assumed nobody in the world could.
Power to weight ratio is only one of many factors to determine if a car is fast or not. In November 2008 issue of Car and Driver they did a third annual Lighting lap, in which 22 sports cars were tested on Virginia International Raceway. Nissan GT-R(a production one) and Chevrolet Corvette Z51 were both tested. GT-R has a 8.1157lbs/hp and Corvette has a 7.506lbs/hp but the result was that the Nissan finished the lap in 2.55.6 and the Corvette finished in 3.01.2. Now, Corvette has a better power to weight ratio than the GT-R, but the Chevy finished the lap in a slower time. In this test a Ferrari F430 Scuderia was also tested along with them, and the F430 has a power to weight ratio of 6.1252lbs/hp, which I think was much much better than GT-R's. But what was the result? The Ferrari finished ahead of the Nissan, but by how much? one second sharp. If your power to weight ratio is so dominant in deciding a race, then I think the Ferrari should be ahead of, may be ten seconds or more. How good the car or tires I should say grip on the track, how much the car understeer or oversteer, how much body roll during turns, how good the brakes were, torque distribution, gear ratioetc and etc all counts. You were talking a 993 Turbo? Come on.
Here is what I think. Many people can not accept the fact that Nissan, a Japanese econo-box maker, could actually manufacture a world-class super car that is able to run along with the best of the best super cars in today's market, more so when Nissan is selling the car for half and even one third of the price of its Italian and German competitors. This is pathetic. If you don't believe Nissan so much, why do you believe Porsche then? Is it possible they detune the GT-R in order to make it slower? I am not saying Porsche did. I am just saying we shouldn't accuse somebody when there was absolutely no proof. You can see many many car reviews done by various countries had compared them, not only Japanese and German. And most, if not all, of them in which GT-R beat 911 Turbo.
But at the end the situation is this: if you believe, you believe, if you don't, so you don't.
Power to weight ratio is only one of many factors to determine if a car is fast or not. In November 2008 issue of Car and Driver they did a third annual Lighting lap, in which 22 sports cars were tested on Virginia International Raceway. Nissan GT-R(a production one) and Chevrolet Corvette Z51 were both tested. GT-R has a 8.1157lbs/hp and Corvette has a 7.506lbs/hp but the result was that the Nissan finished the lap in 2.55.6 and the Corvette finished in 3.01.2. Now, Corvette has a better power to weight ratio than the GT-R, but the Chevy finished the lap in a slower time. In this test a Ferrari F430 Scuderia was also tested along with them, and the F430 has a power to weight ratio of 6.1252lbs/hp, which I think was much much better than GT-R's. But what was the result? The Ferrari finished ahead of the Nissan, but by how much? one second sharp. If your power to weight ratio is so dominant in deciding a race, then I think the Ferrari should be ahead of, may be ten seconds or more. How good the car or tires I should say grip on the track, how much the car understeer or oversteer, how much body roll during turns, how good the brakes were, torque distribution, gear ratioetc and etc all counts. You were talking a 993 Turbo? Come on.
Here is what I think. Many people can not accept the fact that Nissan, a Japanese econo-box maker, could actually manufacture a world-class super car that is able to run along with the best of the best super cars in today's market, more so when Nissan is selling the car for half and even one third of the price of its Italian and German competitors. This is pathetic. If you don't believe Nissan so much, why do you believe Porsche then? Is it possible they detune the GT-R in order to make it slower? I am not saying Porsche did. I am just saying we shouldn't accuse somebody when there was absolutely no proof. You can see many many car reviews done by various countries had compared them, not only Japanese and German. And most, if not all, of them in which GT-R beat 911 Turbo.
But at the end the situation is this: if you believe, you believe, if you don't, so you don't.
That being said, some cars will fair better on some tracks better than others and those same cars could do worse than those other cars on other tracks.
End of the day, I'd take either one.
10-07-08, 07:36 AM
#86
Lexus Champion
Power to weight ratio is only one of many factors to determine if a car is fast or not. In November 2008 issue of Car and Driver they did a third annual Lighting lap, in which 22 sports cars were tested on Virginia International Raceway. Nissan GT-R(a production one) and Chevrolet Corvette Z51 were both tested. GT-R has a 8.1157lbs/hp and Corvette has a 7.506lbs/hp but the result was that the Nissan finished the lap in 2.55.6 and the Corvette finished in 3.01.2. Now, Corvette has a better power to weight ratio than the GT-R, but the Chevy finished the lap in a slower time. In this test a Ferrari F430 Scuderia was also tested along with them, and the F430 has a power to weight ratio of 6.1252lbs/hp, which I think was much much better than GT-R's. But what was the result? The Ferrari finished ahead of the Nissan, but by how much? one second sharp. If your power to weight ratio is so dominant in deciding a race, then I think the Ferrari should be ahead of, may be ten seconds or more. How good the car or tires I should say grip on the track, how much the car understeer or oversteer, how much body roll during turns, how good the brakes were, torque distribution, gear ratioetc and etc all counts. You were talking a 993 Turbo? Come on.
But at the end the situation is this: if you believe, you believe, if you don't, so you don't.
And the Carrera GT has a power-to-weight ratio of 5.03 pounds per horsepower which is even better than the F430 by a long shot and it was only able to lap 1 second faster than the GTR on the ring. Must be that magic 4wd system it has. Oh and the Enzo with 4.56 pounds per horsepower could only manage a lap at the ring 7:25 only four seconds faster than the GTR, what was that power to weight ratio again on a stock GTR? 8.1157lbs/hp. Yes it must be that magic sophisticated AWD setup...
Not to mention the much lower center of gravity on the Enzo...
10-07-08, 02:55 PM
#87
LOL... If you think that even if the GTR was faster than the 911 that Porsche is beaten, then you obviously have tunnel vision. The GTR's interior , ride and just good old plain class ,is no match for the 911. I am afraid that the 911 is still very , very safe and won't be losing any sales due to the GTR.
Once the kids get a bit older and If I had more garage space I would buy both cars and use a GTR as a daily beater, thats my mentality on the GTR. The IS-F was way more refined than the GTR even though it lacked the power and they are both the same price here in Japan.
Once the kids get a bit older and If I had more garage space I would buy both cars and use a GTR as a daily beater, thats my mentality on the GTR. The IS-F was way more refined than the GTR even though it lacked the power and they are both the same price here in Japan.
exactly what I was thinking, Lexus cares more about Luxury then sports aspects of their cars.
10-07-08, 08:23 PM
#89
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Meanwhile...
No Paris Motor Show for the Nissan GT-R V-Spec
Nissan Gt-R V-SpecFew months ago Nissan announced that the GT-R V-Spec will be officially unveiled at the 2008 Paris Motor Show but nothing happened.
Due to this we looked for an answer and this came very quick: the new Nissan GT-R V-Spec will make its official debut at the 2009 Tokyo Motor Show. The reason is simple, the Japanese manufacturer wants to sell more Nissan GT-R vehicles, because if the new V-Spec will be introduced, everybody will focus on the new version. The new V-Spec will feature a new braking system, lowered suspension, new carbon-fiber accessories (due to this the car will drop 250 kg) and more power, up to 530 hp.
No Paris Motor Show for the Nissan GT-R V-Spec
Nissan Gt-R V-SpecFew months ago Nissan announced that the GT-R V-Spec will be officially unveiled at the 2008 Paris Motor Show but nothing happened.
Due to this we looked for an answer and this came very quick: the new Nissan GT-R V-Spec will make its official debut at the 2009 Tokyo Motor Show. The reason is simple, the Japanese manufacturer wants to sell more Nissan GT-R vehicles, because if the new V-Spec will be introduced, everybody will focus on the new version. The new V-Spec will feature a new braking system, lowered suspension, new carbon-fiber accessories (due to this the car will drop 250 kg) and more power, up to 530 hp.
10-09-08, 07:27 AM
#90
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Porsche accuses Nissan of falsifying GT-R Nurburgring lap times (& Nissan responds )
Nissan defends GT-R Nurburgring lap time with second video
Nissan responds to accusations its GT-R Nurburgring lap times were falsified
Earlier this month we reported on accusations hurled by Porsche towards Nissan, accusing the Japanese carmaker of falsifying the blistering Nurburgring lap time of 7m 29s recorded for the GT-R back in May.
The accusations managed to reach the upper echelons of Nissan management, prompting representatives at last week’s Paris Motor Show to state emphatically that the times recorded for the GT-R around the Nurburgring were achieved "on absolutely standard tires which are available to customers in the showroom," and that any sort of slick tires were never used.
A Porsche chassis engineer took a standard GT-R bought in the United States with regular road tires, and tested it on the same day against a Porsche 911 GT2 and a Porsche 911 Turbo. According to Porsche, the GT-R posted a time of 7m 54s, with the 911 Turbo managing 7m 38s and the 911 GT2 getting down to 7m 34s.
Nissan offers proof that standard tires were used for the GT-R’s 7m 29s Nurburgring lap by releasing new video and image of actual tires used in the test. Porsche's contention that the GT-R takes 7m 54s to lap the 'Ring adds a rather significant 25 seconds to the lap time recorded by Nissan's chief test driver Tochio Suzuki. Nissan stated that they were at a loss as to why Porsche was unable to replicate the GT-R's blistering time around the Nurburgring, putting it down to differences between the drivers.
Speaking with Drive, Nissan's European spokesman Neil Reeve stated that Nissan continues to "absolutely maintain (that) Tochio Suzuki pounded thousands of laps and got to know every inch of the Nurburgring and hence set that fabulous lap.”
Reeves went on to comment that it was "flattering that Porsche have bought themselves a GT-R and flown it to Germany" for testing, but that "the people who'd buy a GT-R or 911 Turbo are not the type of people to make a purchase like that lightly.” He also reaffirmed that the GT-R has beat the 911 Turbo during a number of independent tests for both acceleration and circuit lap times.
Nissan has now released an image of the actual tires used for the test plus a second video of the lap as proof that its 7m 29s lap time is legitimate. In an official statement Nissan claims that “there are some important facts that were not accurately represented.”
Nissan has revealed that the GT-R used in the official lap time was actually at a disadvantage due to up to 50kg of testing equipment. According to GTRblog, Nissan has also offered free driver training for Porsche if it wants to attempt a second lap.
You can see the first official GT-R Nurburgring lap time video in our previous story by clicking here.
http://www.motorauthority.com/nissan...egitimate.html