ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

You were in the South Bay Lexus service department right?

I was reading that same book about couple weeks ago...

Iceman

Yes, that's the one!

Anyway, it seems like a consensus is developing here that says Lexus is not at the level they were in 1989, but that perhaps it is impossible for that ever to happen again.

Hogwash. I say that is a lack of imagination, and probably the same lack of passion that now exists in the corporate suites at Toyota. Read the book--the guy who singlehandedly made Lexus what it is would not settle for compromises. He wanted to beat the competition in build quality, fuel economy, cabin noise, and a few other factors. He would not accept excuses from his engineers, which forced them to change the game rather than accept conventional automotive thought.

The Lexus attitude now seems to be, "Let's put out great cars and try to stay on par with the competition." They are, in fact, great cars. Couldn't they be better?

Iceman

You just can't resist, can you?

spwolf

from European point of view, I would have never purchased any of the Lexus models offered in 2002... in 2008, I could see myself owning almost any of the models.

And yeah, around the world, Lexus is rated #1 when it comes to dependability. Something that germans are not matching - nowhere close. People seem to forget that 1st place and 8th place is not the same.

ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

Competitors are catching up because Lexus made them to. After almost 20 years since the debut of the original LS400 Lexus is still number one in reliability is saying something about the brand IMO. I have to agree that the newer generation Lexus models (particularly 2IS and 3GS) don't appeared to be built as solid as their predecessors, however I think that's all part of the growing pain. Also, especially for the 2IS, when it was debut 3 years ago it had the class-leading powertrain by a whopping margin (still is class-leading today in terms of overall performance imo which is saying A LOT) so something is going to give in order to be priced competitively. No one is going to buy an entry level Lexus if it is considerably more expensive than the competitors even if it is built like a Nimitz-class carrier... Granted that it wasn't built like a tank as the LS and 2GS but even with the "compromise" it still has one of the best, if not the best, interior in terms of both fit-and-finish and material quality.

So, has Lexus lost its way? I personally wouldn't go that far. Let's look it as the on-board GPS is currently re-calculating the route. Once it gets back on track with all the new models in the horizon (3RX, hybrids...) Lexus will be blowing by competitors at full speed once again.

RXGS

iTrader: (2)

as long as they address the problems, i am not worried, and i think for 60k and under cars, lexus is ahead of merc, but after that, mercedes all the way haha, and bmw, well nothing from them really impresses me besides the m models

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

So why does Lexus sell so few vehicles in Europe? Is it mainly lack of diesels?

mmarshall

Yes, I think that's one reason. Another is that Lexus has competition among upscale cars in Europe that it does not here......brands like Alfa Romeo, Peugeot, Citroen, Rover, Sterling (if Sterling is still in buisness), Maserati, etc....that either are not offered here or, in Maserati's, case have only a minimal presence in the American market. A third reason, of course, are the extreme subsidies and government support that many European brands get in their home markets that often crowd out American and Japanese competition. For instance, it is no secret that VW is the top-selling brand in Europe, and not surprising either, when you figure it is Germany's largest auto company, the Germans have the largest European economy, and the German government traditionally pumps huge government support into the company. That's why Toyota and Honda, with their better-built and more reliable Corollas and Civics, consistantly trail the Golf/Jetta in Europe, and smaller VWs like the Lupo that are not sold In America.

@lpher

The volume sellers in europe are...small to mediumsize stationwagons (and to some extent hatchbacks)...4-cylinders...diesel or gasoline...

Lexus equals:
No hatcbacks
No stationwagons
No 4-cylinder gasoline engines.


They do have one diesel (IS220d) with a slightly missmatched gearbox though And the auto trans. is not an option on the IS220d. Apparently that is a very bad thing...

Personally..im not shure if i would want Lexus to go any of these routes...but you asked why Lexus are so low on sales in europe

pagemaster

Lexus does not sell well in Europe because the cars are designed more for the United States. Lexus is all about wide open interstate cruising with soft suspension, lack of steerying and whisper quiet interiors. This concept does not fly in Europe. On the Autobahn its all about handling and power.

Take a look at Toyota's line up in Europe. In barely resembles the USA market. That is what Lexus needs.

BMW, Mercs, Audi etc are all designed for Europe first and then the get sold in the USA. That is why Lexus will always do better in the USA than Merc and BMW.

SLegacy99

Lexus has always treated us well. BMW and Audi haven't capitivated us the way Lexus has. They've certainly made a believer out of me, though I've got a ways to go before I can afford one.

KINGLEX

well a lexus is an appliance this is realized, when one drives a car developed with passion. a lexus if for a person that wants a nice a to b car. I think that people are expecting things from them that they never been about. is it really that hard to make a car not handle like it is a boat? Everytime I drive a Lexus, they all seem mushy, and i've driven every current model except the is-f. their cars are reliable because they use old technology, such as tape decks.

-King Bimmer

LexFather

Between pagemasters post and this one, this thread I can see going down south fast....sigh.....

KINGLEX

For the record I loved my 1998 GS400

spwolf

about million reasons...

- lineup not built for europe (although cars after IS are built with europe in mind).
- no 4cly engines (most BMW's and Audis sold are 4cly).
- single diesel engine which is high end 4cly.
- no base equipment hence higher base prices than competition.
- no dealers in many, many countries.
- no fleet pricing, no huge discounts. 3 series is best selling premium car in germany, >65% sales are fleet sales with average discount of 30%. A4 is >70%.
- not enough models. IS is only model with acceptable price for mass sales in Europe - everything else is in niche markets. 1 series, A3, MB A class, sell a lot better than E class/5 series... in Germany 2x as much actually. X5 sells like 8x less than 1 series in Germany (and even worse in other markets).
- media in biggest countries is very protected of their own brands. They have accepted Toyota, not Lexus. Avensis gets reviewed in group test with same diesel as IS, vs BMW, and conslusion is that Avensis has the best diesel engine in the group... Lexus gets tested with the same engine against same BMW, and BMW has much better engine :-). Repeat this million times over.

However, in the future, with heavy hybrid lineup such as dedicated hybrid model which should be spacious and priced similary to IS, new RX which will be much closer to what European want, future is much brighter for Lexus in Europe. They are also activly adding more dealers and opening in more countries.

Just dont expect them to match Big 3 sales,ever. Lexus will always be more expensive than europeans in germany because they have Toyota to sell cheaper cars. Not to mention that in big markets, Lexus will never rival germans just because of their european heritage.

For instance, it will sell a lot better in country like Russia where almost every car is foreign. Just like Toyota that has a lot better sales in countries without their own automobile industry.

So what they need is:
- more affordable models (smaller vehicles).
- more diesel/hybrid models - petrol V6 and V8 are tiny amount of European market... tiny.
- 4cly engines, both diesel and petrol. 3 series has 143hp engine. A4 has 120hp engine.
- more dealers and more countries.
- models built for the market. When IS gets purchased in Europe, it costs $60k. Kids dont have $60k to buy IS. And grownups need more space than what IS offers. GS and LS are very niche, very expensive.

Forget about road feel and such nonsense. New Lexus vehicles drive well enough. They just need more models, more dealers and more time for europeans to understand what Lexus is. I think that by 2020, they might have decent sales (around 150k or similar).