jwong77

I beg to differ, I believe Acura's glory years were somewhere in between 91-93 when the NSX and second generation Legend came out.

ASER

I think the owners of the German luxury cars are a bit more secure with themselves and the cars they bought. I've never seen a thread on a Porsche message board saying "Wow, Lexus is such a joke. They make cars with floaty suspensions and total lack of steering input. Lexuses are cars for grandmas: reliable and boring". They realize that not every car can be, or should be a Porsche. Porsche has its niche, Lexus has another and Acura has its own too. It saddens me to see the glee with which the Lexus owners bash brands they consider inferior to their own.

I am frankly pretty amazed at the naivete (or arrogance?) of some of the members here. Honda/Acura is a tremendously fiscally conservative company. They conduct about a billion of surveys, run hundreds of focus groups and spend a great deal of time on research before they launch a new vehicle. If their cost-benefit analysis has shown that the ZDX will bring them profit, it will bring profit. It's not a "vehicle noone asked for". If Acura is making it, that means HMC knows people will buy it. This is not a company that rushes into risky projects or takes gambles in hopes of short-term profits. It's in it for the long run.

Koma

iTrader: (3)

I bash Acura because of there fugly designs.
I bash Acura because they claim they want to be tier 1 when they're (in my opinion) far from it. They claim they want to be tier 1 but make steps towards a direction that isn't tier 1.

I don't care if the X6 or ZDX outsell Corollas, I still think they're useless and I wouldn't buy one. Some of us are just voicing our opinion about things and not necessarily stating things as fact. Sure, maybe the ZDX will sell like hotcakes because they did tons of market research but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have focused on a core product first.

GFerg

Then you probably haven't visited enough German car forums. Unfortunately its quite common to see Japanese car bashing.

Some people may not like Acura because of what it has become. We know the potential Acura has, but they are accessing none of it. Its frustrating to see a company that many loved, lose their focus (IMO). We all know about the research and focus groups they hold. Thats what they are suppose to do. But in my opinion, they are not doing a good job at that either.

Would it have not made more sense to develop a hybrid, or maybe a diesel, introduce a new CL-coupe, not cancel the NSX, add SH-AWD to the TSX, build a LS/S/7 competitor, or how about figuring out why the RL has been doing poorly in sales for the past decade? There are just to many holes in the Acura lineup to fix currently if they want to be taken seriously by consumers and competition. So instead of fixing what they currently have, we get a vehicle that yes, "no one asked for". I say this because the X6 gives us all the proof we need. They wanted to sell about 20,000 a year, yet has trouble selling 500 a month! Why would you want to copy a vehicle that is arguably a bust?

Many people want to see Acura succeed. Competition is good. But right now IMO they are failing and should be doing much better. Just a short two years ago, I thought they were on the right track and were truly "Advancing". Now they are moving sideways and going no where.




And from here on out, lets make this thread about the vehicle, and not the members of CL.

dunnojack

i hope someone breaks embargo and leaks the damn pics

MSMLexIS

Is this going to be a 4Door coupe or an X6 competitor.

ASER

But keep in mind that design is subjective. What looks fugly to you today might look distinctive, bold or unique to someone else. And if those who buy new TLs see them to be just as ugly as you do then that only speaks highly of the car’s other characteristics. My personal opinion: in the world filled with anonymous cars with a distinct lack of “personality”, designed to be as inoffensive as possible (I am looking at you Toyota), a TL is like a breath of fresh air.


I don’t think they are Tier 1 either. But when was that made a goal of the brand? Less than a year ago? Changes like that do not happen overnight. Acura’s was designed as an “entry-level luxury” brand. They don’t make V8s/V10s/V12s not because they can’t make them but because they’ve never had any desire to compete in the market segments that require them. That’s not their niche. Not every person who wants a nicer car than a Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Chevy wants to spend the BMW-level money for the BMW-level luxury/sports car. Some want to drive a vehicle that does 90% of what BMW/MB/Lexus does for 70% of the cost (arbitrary numbers, meant only to illustrate a point).


And I cannot fault you for that. After all, it’s your money you are spending and the vehicle you are buying should satisfy yours and your family’s needs. But there is a difference between “the X6 and the ZDX do not satisfy MY needs in a vehicle” and “Acuras are total crap and the ZDX is useless for everyone” isn’t there? If you peruse the Car Chat, you’ll find a lot of the later and not much of the former.


Since Acura doesn’t invite me to their corporate meetings, I do not have the knowledge required to make the determination of which product should be the focus of Acura’s efforts first and which ones can wait. But remember the time when Porsche announced they’ll be making the Cayenne? If the memory serves me right, the reaction from the car pundits, professional and amateurish alike was “Porsche has lost their way; they ought to be making sports coupes and convertibles instead of those ugly SUVs. That’s not what I signed up for, Porsche should be making the cars I like!” But look at Porsche now: the Cayenne made them the most profitable company in the industry, allowing them to develop some cutting-edge sports cars that we all love so much and to take control of the VW.

ASER

Fair enough, perhaps my analogy wasn’t entirely appropriate. Allow me to make another one to illustrate my point better. I’ve never seen a post on a Hummer board like this: “Wow, those Scions are totally useless! Can you believe that Hyundai has a V8 engine already and Scion still doesn’t? I tried towing my 30 foot boat with my Scion and it didn’t move an inch! And I even ripped out my car’s bumper doing this! And they don’t even offer a grill guard! No wonder the Ford F-150 is outselling all Scions combined!”
If I am speaking in riddles, let me clarify: Acura and Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Lexus & Audi have different places in the market. Just like Hummer and Scion do. For now and for the immediate future, Acura is an entry-level luxury brand and has been for ages. Becoming Tier 1 is future plans, possibly made more distant by the recession we are in. When car enthusiasts expect Acura to start turning out Phantom competitors (sarcasm) just because “everybody is doing it”, that’s when they are just setting themselves up for disappointment.



You know, maybe I am the one being naïve right now, but I do not think that Acura is dumb. I think their senior management has reached a point (right around the time they announced their desire to be Tier 1) at which they realized that they’ve been playing it way too safe in the past. Some of your ideas will inevitably become a reality if they turn out to make financial sense. I am not a company insider, but if I had to guess –

- Why not develop a hybrid/diesel? Either it’s already in development (but HMC is being secretive like usual) or it’s been decided that there isn’t enough demand for the hybrid luxury cars yet to justify the development cost
- Why not introduce a CL-coupe? Because traditionally the sales of coupes have been dwarfed by the sales of sedans. Possibly because the profit margin of a CL coupe would not be much greater than that for a TL sedan, thus making the additional production & development costs hard to justify
- Why did they cancel the NSX? They didn’t, they just put it on hold. We are in a recession now and the market research has shown that the NSX will bring in the “halo” but not enough to motivate enough people to buy the other, mass-produced Acuras
- Why not add SH-AWD to the TSX? Because the TSX is supposed to be cheap and light and the SH-AWD would rob its hp and decrease the fuel economy. Also, not enough people need/want AWD
- Why not build a 7/S/LS competitor? Because it’s hugely expensive and because Acura realizes that people are very brand-conscious when they buy vehicles of this caliber. In time, they’ll build one because there’s no way to be Tier 1 without it.



Of course someone asked for it. Not so long ago Acura’s put the NSX on the indefinite hold, a vehicle that “everyone” seems to be asking for. Why? Because the cold hard math doesn’t lie. Because you don’t have a feast in time of a plague. Acura has shown it will not hesitate to redlight an almost-done vehicle if the market shows it’s not ready for it. Why would what’s perhaps the most risk-averse company in the industry make a vehicle “no one asked for” in the middle of a world-wide economic breakdown? Answer: because it makes financial and economic sense to do so, even if it’s not immediately obvious to the outside observers.

Also, the outer resemblance the ZDX has with the X6 is a tremendously weak prognosticator of the Acura’s future market success. We know neither the future MSRP, nor how many sears it’ll have, the available engines (it might even have a V8 although probably not the first year of production), features or interior/exterior dimensions. How in the world do some people manage to predict whether it’ll be a flop or a runaway success based on the 4 shadowy pictures that barely show anything at all?

ASER

Not much longer to wait: it'll be shown on April 8th at the New York Auto Show.




It will be a crossover. Whether or not it'll compete with the X6 or in a different segment remains to be seen.

-J-P-L-

Thanks for taking the time to point out so many great points.

Finally somebody gets it.

I personally love Acura's lineup, although incomplete at the moment, the current models are excellent cars. Yes, I even love the TL's styling. Many critics will eventually grow to like it as well. Its giant leap forward is just hard for some to digest.

Like you pointed out, I don't know why everyone thinks that each company has to compete exactly with the next company's lineup? Why can't we have the variety and options that a company like Acura offers? The TL is positioned between the Lexus ES and GS or the BMW 3 and 5-series for example and people will cross shop the TL with each of those models. Why is that a bad thing? I would consider an RL to be between the mid and upper class models (5 and 7, GS and LS, ect.). Acura creates a unique niche that way.



As for the ZDX. Why do people say that a vehicle like this (or the X6) is "useless"? It's only useless to the person who want's a different vehicle type.
How could a vehicle with 4 doors and extra ground clearance be useless? Technically, it's more useful and practical than a sedan.

A Smart ForTwo is "useless" to 99% of the population, but it has it's buyer and serves a purpose. A Lamborghini is "useless" and impractical to 99.9%
of the population, but thank God it exists. Am I right?

My point is that it makes no sense to say that "know one asked for this" (or any vehicle). Or to dismiss it as a failure before you even see more than a profile or single spec.

-J-P-L-

Can't wait!

Yes, it's clearly a crossover and architecturally similar to the X6. It's safe to say that it will compete with the i6 version of the X6 priced at $55K. It won't compete with the $66K V8 version of course (at least initially since Acura has held it's development of a V8). It has been reported the the ZDX will be price above the MDX which ranges from $42-$49K. That puts it right in line with the i6 X6.

bruce van

I am sick of car companies coming out with "coupe like" cars and not have REAL COUPE in their line-up. Come on Acura, how about a coupe with 2 doors? They are losing lots of potential sales to G37 coupe customers and BMW 3-series customers.

The ZDX will probably be a flop. Style is one thing, but I think the Acura customer base would pick substance and function over it 99% of the time. RDX & MDX are easy to pick over whatever the ZDX will look like.

X6 sales are a flop and if BMW can't attract buyers based on image and styling, then Acura doesn't have an chance in hell.

Iceman

I will disagree on this point. Acura buyers tend to be young, tech-saavy folks who like gadgets and gizmos. They also like unique styling, which is not something the brand has offered in spades in the past. Acura, IMO, has a better chance of appealing to the "useless small crossover" market than BMW does, because at that $50K+ price point (where the X6 sits), BMW's customer base is looking for family haulers. Acura can undercut the price, making it affordable to young professionals who don't have kids to lug around but who might want something cooler, hipper, and more stylish than a typical sedan. And who don't want to be seen in yet another G37 or 3-series...

speedflex

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

That face actually works better on this than the TL. I like the RX ad on the bottom of the pic