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Breaking News: GM posts $4.2Billion loss and warns that it is almost out of money

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Old 11-07-08, 05:10 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by shyguy16
i think the question many should ask before approving a bailout is if it is a long term solution, or just delaying the inevitable.
Considering Chrysler got BAILED OUT in the 1970s, well, every 30 years they need help

You know I really might change my position on this b/c its utterly pathetic really that a business CANNOT RUN A BUSINESS.

Lets be honest here, outside of a handful of vehicles, OVERALL, all 3 pretty much suck. Most of us here will not pick one over the competition UNLESS we got a smoking deal or it had no competitors or it was better (Vette, CTS, Malibu for example).

CHrysler can go under. Their entire lineup is just basically crap. Jeep is okay at best but seems to have a core audience.

GM and Ford have tried to do better as of late, but it maybe TOO LATE. I really like what GM has done especially.

It almost makes me think ENGLISH PEOPLE (USA and UK) can't run a damn car company considering the UK has no more and now the USA is on its last leg.

How the hell can the same nation that put a man on the moon and dominate the computer industry not figure out how to sell cars to the BIGGEST CAR BUYING NATION ON THE PLANET.

RIDAMNDICULOUS.
 
Old 11-07-08, 05:27 PM
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Old 11-07-08, 05:27 PM
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Old 11-07-08, 05:27 PM
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Old 11-07-08, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by FKL
This is a highly ignorant statement. What all of you Toyota fanboys don't realize is that the second an American auto company files, there's going to be a big backlash against Japan and other import cars. Mark my words. And you wonder why Toyota is offering to help GM.

Sometimes, bias deludes your thoughts, as is evident with this statement. Declaring bankrupcy for GM and "dumping the unions" would be a cataclysmic event which would send ripples throughout the entire economy. You think firing all of their workers and rehiring them at lower wage can be done just like that? Have you been living under a rock? Have you ever heard of United Airlines? I mean my god do you have any sense whatsoever what you are spouting off here? Or are you just talking from a big bias you hold against the company? Saying things like that just makes you sound ill-informed and frankly, makes it hard for me to take you seriously, and I'm sure others.

I'm sorry for the tone, but sometimes a comment as ignorant and ill-thought out as this one just takes me to the edge. Sometimes you have to take your head out of your rear and start thinking objectively with your mind. Firring all of your unionized labor is not only delusional, it's ignorant. That won't happen, it can't happen, it will doom the company in if it ever were to happen.
Although I don't neccesarly entirely agree with the statement you quoted from MPLexus301, I am ever so interested as to what you would suggest?

I hope my question does not make me a Toyota "Fan Boy"...
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Old 11-07-08, 07:15 PM
  #36  
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1SickLex, I love the pictures of the Big 3 of yesterday vs. today. The fascinating thing is that, to someone like me, I look and say "They're still producing the same crap they have for 20 years now." But another perspective is to say "Look how far they've come and how much more stylish their cars are now."

The American auto industry is dead. Government subsidies will not fix that. If anything, it will only propagate the mediocrity and reward the mismanagement that has gotten us to where we are now. The beauty of the free market is that SOMEONE out there is going to look at the Japanese and Korean competition and figure out a way to beat them. They will get the start-up capital they need, they will struggle and make tough decisions and have to do more than focus on next quarter's results, and they will SUCCEED. One only has to look at the Communist systems of the 60's-80's to see what happens when government controls the economy and basically owns all industry.
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Old 11-07-08, 07:42 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by spwolf
you are pointing your opinion on 4-5 vehicles out of 50 that GM makes.
I wasn't limiting to GM, but plenty more examples.
Enclave - excellent. I guess Tiger Woods wants to advertise junk?
Ford Flex - excellent.
Ford Sync technology - blows away ANYTHING Toyota has inside.
GM magneto-resistive dampers - best in the world. I guess Ferrari wants to use junk?
Ford Taurus - excellent. Competes well with Toyota Avalon.
Ford Fusion - excellent. Great reviews all over.
Several Saturns - excellent.

Did you read Edmunds review on longterm Silverado and Enclave? Both had failed transmission early on, and no wonder GM reliability is actually going down.
Didn't see Enclave review, but did you see that Edmunds test RIDICULOUSLY included 'testing' (thrashing) at three DIFFERENT RACE CAR TRACKS? Not exactly normal use.

And Toyota is going to have a bit less than 10 billion in profits this year. Really bad for them.
Toyota is certainly an excellent company. But all this dumping on GM and Ford is so over the top. We all know why they're losing money. An over reliance on truck/SUV sales when gas prices went nuts and handcuffs into union contracts that mean they can't get rid of thousands of employees - they either have their produce more vehicles than the market needs, or they "furlough" the workers which means they get paid a fortune for doing NOTHING. Yes, they ultimately have no-one to blame but themselves, but the CURRENT management did not put those agreements in place.

And no, it is not only UAW thats the problem - problem always was and will stay that they make mostly subpar vehicles that break a lot and that their customers lost confidence in their products. Oh yeah, they add some shine to the interior, call it all new and turning the page, but after 2 years people realize that it is same old GM.
You're so wrong. I know tons of people with GM and Ford products who are very happy with them. SERIOUS problems from the 80s and 90s though damaged their reputations horribly, but perceptions remain.

In Europe, where you are, did you see that Ford broke even? And both Ford and GM do relatively well in Europe in market share and sales as you know.

Another problem is that they advertise vehicles that are going to be sold 2-3-4-5 years from now, instead of right now. Volt and Cruze are going to change the world in 2010,
Yes, I don't like that either, but they're desperately trying to change perceptions and that they're innovative. Both companies are already VERY innovative, but still perceptions change very slowly. For millions, including you it seems, NOTHING they could do will change your mind.

They need to fire everyone that works at top level at GM, Bob Lutz first and hire competent people who will do what needs to be done. And what they dont need is shiny korean daewoo engineering.
Lutz is there for P.R. and design and not operational manaagement. As for other executives, well, I only know about the top guys and they seem extremely competent. Frankly I don't think you have much of any idea how complex the problems are, and they are making SIGNIFICANT progress. But while that progress has been going on they've now run into a buzz saw of a financial crisis. Next you'll be blaming them for the housing crisis.
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Old 11-07-08, 08:02 PM
  #38  
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Letting GM or Ford go bankrupt will have MAJOR consequences for the country, as thousands of dealers go under, thousands of suppliers, integrators, test labs, IT consultants, accountants, lawyers, and others lose work too.

I'm a free market guy, but the problem is, if a behemoths is left to go under, the govt (i.e., taxpayer) ends up paying the tab ANYWAY.
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Old 11-07-08, 08:13 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Letting GM or Ford go bankrupt will have MAJOR consequences for the country, as thousands of dealers go under, thousands of suppliers, integrators, test labs, IT consultants, accountants, lawyers, and others lose work too.

I'm a free market guy, but the problem is, if a behemoths is left to go under, the govt (i.e., taxpayer) ends up paying the tab ANYWAY.
Precisely what I was trying to say in my post. This same "let them burn" attitude was apparent when UAL, US Airways, Air canada, Delta, and NWA all filed for bankrupcy. For example, if UAL were to have just shut down one day, the entire global transportation system would be struck blind. What would happen to Washington DC (IAD) travel? What would have happened to all of the daily flights to Hong Kong, Beijing, Tapei, Tokyo Narita, London Heathrow? The company was and still is an integral part of the US transportation system. Shutting down would be complete chaos. Yes the other competitors would fill the void, but it would be an absolute mess for weeks.
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Old 11-07-08, 09:16 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Letting GM or Ford go bankrupt will have MAJOR consequences for the country, as thousands of dealers go under, thousands of suppliers, integrators, test labs, IT consultants, accountants, lawyers, and others lose work too.

I'm a free market guy, but the problem is, if a behemoths is left to go under, the govt (i.e., taxpayer) ends up paying the tab ANYWAY.
Yes but if I'm going to pay the bill anyway then let's at least teach the lesson that it really, really hurts when you mess up this bad. Perhaps, just perhaps, some longer term thinking will then begin to take hold. Pay now and the pain isn't felt too bad by anyone (ergo no lessons learned).

Originally Posted by FKL
Precisely what I was trying to say in my post. This same "let them burn" attitude was apparent when UAL, US Airways, Air canada, Delta, and NWA all filed for bankrupcy. For example, if UAL were to have just shut down one day, the entire global transportation system would be struck blind. What would happen to Washington DC (IAD) travel? What would have happened to all of the daily flights to Hong Kong, Beijing, Tapei, Tokyo Narita, London Heathrow? The company was and still is an integral part of the US transportation system. Shutting down would be complete chaos. Yes the other competitors would fill the void, but it would be an absolute mess for weeks.
Oh Noes! Whole weeks?!? Imagine the inconvenience.

Here I take a slightly different view between airlines and the car industry that lead me to be more likely to want to save a car manufacturer vs. an airline. These reasons are:

1) We are talking about fewer and larger entities (when considering suppliers, etc...) that will cause much larger collateral damage if they fail.
2) Manufacturing vs. Service industry. We have a much smaller manufacturing base than service. Much easier to replace a service job than a manufacturing one.
3) Timeliness of change. It takes much longer to turn things around in the car industry. If I had the next great idea it would still take me 18-24 months to get that idea on the road (think any significant change) unless the government relaxes rules and regulations. Plus I need to spend lots of money to make that happen. Airlines can stop flying planes and costs immediately go down. (Yes contracts/leases still need to be broken but how large is the affected workforce?)

As others have stated I find it hard to blame the current management (excluding Chrysler) for the predicament they find themselves in. They have done an amazing shrinking act and have worked quite hard to rid themselves of costs associated with some of the dumber prior business practices. However those changes don't really roll into full force for a couple years either. GM, Ford and Chrysler are in a race to survive a couple more years when many of the actions they have taken will finally help them out.

BTW: What happened with United where the pensions simply disappeared was unconscionable. One of the greatest acts of business BS enabled by the courts I have ever seen.

All that said I still think letting some of these companies fail and causing a lot of pain will be the only way we ever properly right this ship again as people just don't care if they don't feel enough pain.
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Old 11-07-08, 10:03 PM
  #41  
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I believe in letting free market take it's course but unfortunately, the big three are too big to fail completely. The 2nd Great Depression would be inevitable if 1 or 2 of them completely died. America would no longer be the superior power of the world. Think about it guys. We're talking millions of jobs.

They need loans that need to be paid back like Chrysler in the early '80's. Chrysler developed the minivan and paid the money back early. The rest is history.

Let's remember that the automaker's ultimate and potential collapse was triggered by the financial crisis (even though problems have built up for years within the companies). And of course gas prices doubling. But people not buying cars is the final blow they couldn't afford.
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Old 11-07-08, 11:46 PM
  #42  
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I went to go pick up some food tonight and while I was waiting for the food I was reading the financilal news in the paper and they were saying that its just a matter of time before they go belly up. Thats sad for all of the families of the employees. I hate the cars, but I dont want them to go belly up.
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Old 11-08-08, 01:13 AM
  #43  
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I thought I came across an article in passing about Toyota posting a loss the past couple quarters. I dunno where that was. OTOH, Porsche's made more strides toward VW and posted a record earnings. Somebody in the auto biz seems to be on a good track.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g...k949gD94A7QB00

They've let themselves get stale and as much as it has been foreseen, it is a head in sand issue. The excess that has driven them only goes for so long but they continued to think it would go on and on...
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Old 11-08-08, 01:29 AM
  #44  
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Imagine all the jobs lost from GM corporate, dealerships, and even companies that make their components... I don't believe in bailing out a company, but GM really needs a miracle if they are to really survive this.
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Old 11-08-08, 01:46 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
Letting GM or Ford go bankrupt will have MAJOR consequences for the country, as thousands of dealers go under, thousands of suppliers, integrators, test labs, IT consultants, accountants, lawyers, and others lose work too.

I'm a free market guy, but the problem is, if a behemoths is left to go under, the govt (i.e., taxpayer) ends up paying the tab ANYWAY.
Their operations will not come to a halt and shut down if they file for chapter 12. They will probably be forced to restructure completely from the bottom up.

As much as I would like to see them go under, I highly doubt they will since Obama has come into office.

On another note, I do not think injecting money into their failed business models will help them recover. That is like injecting money into failing stocks or companies because you believe they can change. Any good business man knows when to cut their losses.
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