RON430

I was not referring to the absolute prices at all, and by the way the pound is more like $1.50 now, at best. I was referring to premiums for things like diesel which to me is pretty independent of currencies.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

diesel here is $1 more per gallon than even premium. Higher initial cost + higher fuel price, great

Big Andy

Diesels generally (though not always) carry a premium over their petrol equivalents in Europe, and in markets such as the UK diesel fuel is 10% more expensive than petrol. So why run a diesel 335d over a 335i? Apart from the seemingly limitless torque from low revs the answer is in taxation; because diesel cars emit less CO2 they attract less annual road tax and if you are running one as a company car your monthly car tax bill will be lower, so they make sound economic sense. I'm not sure that applies in the US where fuel is very cheap.

The 335d is a fabulous car and in the real world better and faster than the 335i petrol, but if I lived in the US the economic case doesn't stack up.

Threxx

Interesting to hear about how car taxes work in the UK... even more interesting to hear that diesels emit less CO2. I must admit I'm not well educated on the subject but I only know that the manufacturers that have been trying to sell diesels here have fought a heck of a battle to get their diesels to meet emissions standards, whereas the gasoline powered cars they don't seem to have any problem with at all.

Here in the US diesel fuel is more like 30-40% more expensive currently, so even though most diesel cars on the market seem to get quite a bit better mileage than their gasoline counter parts, it's usually not enough to offset that kind of cost increase.

The 335d is definitely not faster than the 335i... at least according to every test I've seen so far and BMW's own published numbers. BMW says 0-60 takes 6.0 with the 335d... I forget their number for the 335i but it's definitely in the low 5 second range. Several magazines have gotten high 4s out of the 335i... I doubt we're going to see that from the 335d, and I suspect the 1/4-mile will also show similar if not further separated results.

Big Andy

Forget 0-60 times - they are for kids with Top Trump cards or Traffic Light Grand Prixs. The 30-50mph and 30-70mph times are where the diesels come into their own.

doug_999

The trick here is that diesels emit less CO2 per mile, because they get better mileage. I think you are correct that they actually put out more CO2 per gallon/liter of fuel.

Actually they still offset the cost increase of the fuel, just not the extra cost increase of the car.

I he is talking about 0-30/40 where the diesel just rocks. After that the 335 will just walk on it, however, both cars are probably at the next stoplight by then

Threxx

Do you have times to support this or is it just the stereotype of diesel torque? I tried to find times for 0-30 or 30-70 or whatever and can't find anything.

I suspect 0-30 is extremely similar on the two cars as 0-30 is almost entirely traction limited on my 335i... thus unless the diesel has stickier tires, it's probably equally traction limited.

We already know where things end up at 0-60 so I doubt there's a magic space after 30 but before 60 where the diesel takes over but then manages to lose almost full second on the 335i.

I will definitely agree that from a perceived power standpoint going from stop light to stoplight the diesel will probably feel more rewarding to drive simply because of the massive amount of torque it offers, but it starts losing its game up at the high rev band which is pretty much where those cars are going to stay at WOT after their initial launch (which again, if my car can be any basis, is traction limited).

STIG

Completely OT, but do I see a M5 in your avatar?

doug_999

425 lb-ft of torque 335d vs. 300 lb-ft on the 335i

That's not stereotype, that's a fact

Mayyyyyybeeee......

Damn .9% financing...

Threxx

Sure it's a fact that the diesel has more torque. What's not a fact (and what is a stereotype) is that diesels automatically will take out their gasoline counterparts in off the line acceleration because of it.

Like I already mentioned, on my 335i, 0-30 is completely traction limited. So unless the 335d has stickier tires or a better driver it's not going to get any better there.

By 30 mph you're already well into the upper rev range where the diesel is generating significantly less power than the 335i and low rpm torque is no longer a factor.

doug_999

I can only suggest that you go drive it....

insider

Car and Driver tested the 335d (US version) 0-60 at 5.7 and the 1/4 mile at 14.2 @ 100 versus the 335i 0-60 at 4.8 and the 1/4 mile at 13.5 @106. Diesel is a lot slower. Also, 335i is faster at all speeds 30-50 50-70 etc. Only time the diesel has an edge is when lugging the engine in a high gear, say from 50-70 in 6th gear. When downshifting and using proper gears the 335i will always be faster.

bagwell

so...

its slower
cost additional $2500
$1-$1.50 more per gallon of fuel...

what's so good about diesel again??????

Big Andy

The 335i is a superb car but the 335d has greater flexibility. 50-70mph in the 335i takes 6sec compared to just 3.3sec in the 335d - it's that ability to be cruising along and then just press the right foot and get instant response.

Vladi

They are showcasing the technology that diesels are not tractor engines anymore. They are powerful and fuel efficient at the same time and if you live in EU they will make you believe that is cleaner than petrol (which is not).
Brave move by BMW I must say.

Someone mentioned taxation based on CO2 in Europe and why diesels are cheaper than gasoline variations and that is true. Manufacturers lobbied big time to get EU administration to lower standards for diesel regulations cause otherwise all that investment into diesel technology will be for nothing. Also no one mentioned NOx emissions from diesels in late 90s when it was a real problem, another victory for manufacturers.

My rundown on diesel as I owned a lot of them: buy 4cyl diesel and save money on fuel if that is your goal, also you get better performance than comparable 4cyl gasoline variation. Big displacement diesels are nothing but huge compromise between performance and mileage and don't justify the premium compared to gasoline counterpart, especially V8 diesels so I stayed away from them. Lately reliability within single turbo diesels improved a lot while twin turbo systems did not prove themselves yet to be solid.