That's why they call it the pursuit of perfection. Perfect IS impossible, but they are trying.

Anyhow, as reports indicated, the 3GS in particular had some issues, particularly because Lexus was using more computer modeling than previous actual test models; these led to some unanticipated quality issues. Fortunately they apparently have gone back to the tried-and-true methods.

 

I have a squeak that I can't pinpoint, but I can find an issue with any car if I try hard enough. So far, I'm enjoying my 08 2IS.

 

i once got a ES350 loaner with 10k miles. that thing sounded like it was gonna fall apart inside. plus it had a transmission flare.

i can't imagine how you can destroy a car like that. drive on cobblestone all day at 50mph ?

 

Our '04 RX330 had a rattle that turned out to be a loose panel protecting the gas tank. Lexus quickly took care of that repair and we have not had one other issue with it.

My '08 IS F is only 3 months old, but I do have over 10K km on it already and I have not had anything that resembles an unecessary noise or rattle (knock on wood...lol).

Maybe we've just been lucky

 

Speaking of loaners, my dealer had been giving me an ES350, so you can imagine the difference in ambiance between it and a 600. So bad in fact that I now refuse to accept a loaner, and insist instead they complete the work in the shortest possible time, while I wait in the dealership wandering occasionally to check out what's new. There's nothing like applying a little pressure now and again by throwing an icy glare in the direction of the service advisers watching them grow nervous by the minute. It works, and they get me out of there quick...

 

What you're saying confirms what I said though; compared to other brands, Lexus owners pretty much DO expect perfection. A BMW or Benz owner probably finds electrical problems to be no big deal, but to a Lexus owner electrical problems would be a huge deal.

Yes Lexus a few years ago had a bit of a drop in quality along with Toyota, but Toyota quickly learned of their mistake, admitted to it, and has since then been working to get quality back up. Even considering this, Lexus quality has STILL been at or near the top of industry benchmarks.

You're comparing a loaner RX to a GS you owned? How fair . You have no idea how that loaner was treated, so you cannot accurately judge the problems on that car. Some loaners are as bad as beaten-up rentals in terms of their condition and how they were treated.

I've been in MANY Gen 2 RXs and I did not notice a single rattle in ANY of them. Was I lucky, was it coincidence, or maybe it's just that the 2RX doesn't have big rattle problems.

The 3GS on the other hand does though. The rattle problems with the 3GS unfortunately coincided with a slip in quality for Toyota, and some poor judgement on their part. Some of their efforts to cut costs directly impacted quality. Since then, Toyota has dramatically increased R&D spending on all future models to increase quality.

 

I have had one rattle in my 07 IS350... but when I took it in to the dealer it magically disappeared before the service guys attempted to fix it and never returned 0.o...

 

You are exaggerating quite a bit but to an extent, yes. As I already explained... people pay the price premium for Lexus vehicles to be even more reliable, better made, and more refined than their Toyota counterparts. Nobody wants to spend 50-60 grand on a GS and end up having more squeaks and rattles than in a Chevy Malibu.

People buy Lexus not for their near perfect sportiness but their near perfect quality and refinement.

People buy BMW not for their near perfect quality but for their near perfect balance of sportiness and luxury.

That's why it's a bigger deal for a Lexus to have a rattle and a bigger deal for a BMW to offer a poor driving experience.

Which is exactly why I'm asking if the rattles known to plague the earlier years of the 3GS and 2IS are still around. I want to know if Lexus has fixed these cars yet.

The Lexus brand still scores well on industry benchmarks as a whole but some of their models have been getting average to below average ratings in some areas of quality which is unlike them. And again, why I'm asking.


I drove the crap out of my GS which had over 70k miles on the odo when I sold it compared to 3-6k on the RX loaners I had. Unless those RXs were all taken down cobblestone roads at 100mph and jumped off a few hills, there's really no excuse. Not to mention my mother in law's 07 RX350 which is driven very conservatively has issues with rattles as well. Go over to the RX forums and you'll find this is not at all an uncommon issue. I'm not making things up here.

Or maybe you're just conveniently not very critically observant of rattles in Lexus vehicles?

FWIW, I've only driven a 3GS once and it had no rattles. Then again it only had 500 miles on it. I'm just going on what I've read on these forums.

Which is once again, why I'm asking the question in the original post that you have become amazingly defensive about even though you yourself seem to be aware that the problem exists.

 

People are forgetting some things.
1. Lexus cars now wear 40 or 45 series tires in many instances.
2. Lexus cars have even tighter suspensions and braces.
3. Lexus cars are quieter.
4. Plastics have changed, some are harder.
5. Lexus has the reputation for perfection and people are quick to point out when it is not "perfect".
6. Lexus has sold nearly 5 million vehicles which means there will be MORE complaints based on volume.

I have never had a rattle free Lexus. I've never had a rattle free car. I know cars are not perfect. A rattle there never bugged me, I'd just turn the music up or listen to the exhaust.

There seems to be more Lexus with rattles and people that have them. I am not downplaying their cars or how they feel. I wish they were rattle free.

In all my loaners (in an IS 250 since Friday) I haven't heard all these rattles but one time in another IS loaner and once I turned up the music, it didn't bug me.

 

Measuring "quality" based on rattles seems pointless to me. I would much rather closely examine the way in which the car is BUILT and finished. For example, listen to the "thunk" of the doors as they close. Look at the way the trunk is finished, the way weather stripping is placed around the car (is it high quality rubber of garbage that will crack, a la Honda), the quality of the hood (is it substantial, covered?). Are the plastics covered in a soft touch paint/finish or are they hard and unfinished? Are there exposed screwheads? How is the tactile feedback of the buttons? Does the center cluster creak when you push it inwards? Is every interior switch illuminated? How do the AC vents feel? Are they flimsy? How solid is the shifter mechanism? Are the door grab handles real aluminum?

The first thing I usually do when assesing a car's quality is to look and feel around in places where most normally wouldn't, like under the steering wheel for example. It's my experience that true attention to detail elludes many marques even known for high-quality. I have a Honda Accord, but the level of hard, flibsy plastic, especially in places like under the steering wheel, is a little saddening.

I figure any car can have a little rattle from some wire/plastic piece rubber up against another, but it takes much more to engineer and produce a car that is built to high standards, with high materials. Just becuase a Kia may be rattle/noise free while an expensive Mercedes-Benz may have a slight rattle from somewhere doesn't mean the Kia is built better or somehow has higher "quality". The same can be said if the Kia is more reliable...Quality is measured, in my opinion, not from cost of ownership/reliability, but from the build quality and overall fit/finish. Yes a vw will be more unreliable than a Honda Accord, but nobody will seriously believe the Honda somehow has better fit/finish and build quality, which I take into meaning overall quality. Quality is more than just JD power cost of ownership.

 

Not to mention, most people who get lexus loaner cars aren't the type to floor their car from stop light to stop, or take it to a nearby race track. Many times I've been to the dealership and it's usually elderly people coming in and out. Of all brands,

 

Yes, Lexus has fixed some of the rattle issues that were common on some models in the past few years. No, not ALL rattle problems have been fixed, because that would mean the cars are perfectly rattle-free which would be impossible. There are still some rattle problems, but less than before.

And no, I'm not "conveniently" disregarding problems or lacking observation when I'm in a Lexus. The last Gen 2 RX I was in was my friends', and we rode over a variety of surfaces, from smooth pavement to pot-hole ridden broken pavement and also some dirt roads. On that ride I actually made it a priority to listen for rattles, and I did not hear any. The volume was down, even the A/C and air I turned off for a moment just to have as little sound as possible. So in that particular RX, I was looking for rattle problems and did not find any. In all other Gen 2 RXs I have been in, yes I have not noticed rattles.

Since you're so critical and don't believe me, let me ask you question. Do you always look for rattles or other problems in a Lexus? Do you actually actively go seeking problems in Lexus models?

 

There are many ways to judge quality and rattles are one of many of them. I wouldn't suggest that overall quality be hinged on rattles or any of these other measures but rather a culmination of them.

Don't get too hung up on perceived quality either. As we've seen time and time again there are cars that pass the large majority of your above mentioned measures and are still complete hunks of crap with mechanical and electronics, quickly wearing materials, and even develop significant rattles over time (think VW/Audi). In other words perceived quality initially isn't always a good indicator of actual durable quality over the long run.

I've never seen a cost of ownership spec given by JD Power. Do they give one? I'd be interested in seeing it if they do.

I actively seek problems in all cars - especially ones I own or am considering owning. I think that's evident if you've seen how many nit picks I've given over time about my BMW and Audi as well as my Lexus.

I might actually say I'm a little OCD about rattles in general. The several rattles I've had in my Audi and BMW were more easily dismissed for me psychologically because I don't own them (they're 24 month leases) so I don't feel like if I don't fix the rattle it's going to annoy me for years to come. But that doesn't mean I can't name almost every rattle I've heard in them. I have a bad habit of hearing rattles in other people's cars and trying to figure out where they're coming from... most often pointing out rattles they were entirely unaware of in the process. They usually hate me for that.

 

You bring up some good points Sir. I'll use the example of two cars I currently own. I have an 02 Passat GLX which now has 94K on it. Also an 02 Accord EX V6 with 84K. "Quality" wise, at least in my definition, the VW clearly, clearly has much higher levels of build quality. The door strikers are more solid, the weather stripping looks as good as day one, the doors close like vault doors, like old Mercedes of the old days. Everything is substantial about the car, from the power seat tracks (thick metal) to the solid construction of the wooden gearshift lever to the absolutely gorgeous trunk. In comparison, the Honda just feels "cheaper" (doesn't mean it's a bad car by any means). The doors are light, don't close with the same thud of the VW, the body tolorances are not as tight as the VWs, the weather stripping has dried and is chipping off, the trunk is completely unfinished, with struts that intrude into your baggage. Moreover, the Honda has had it's seat fall of it's track twice, and it still rocks back and forth ever so slightly if you shift your weight. Plus, the steering wheel is much larger, with a cheap leather coating which has discolored. The stereo is garbage, no rear headrests. Perhaps my largest gripe is that you can hear the body flexing when you go over bumps, up near the sunroof opening. The Passat feels like a tank, even today. Yes it has had more costly problems than the Accord (axels, motor mounts), but those are wear items. I haven't had any electrical issues, and frankly no new vag products have electrical problems (since around 02 when they switched vendors of critical modules).

So in the end, the Passat feels like a tank, the Accord feels like a light car, it's easy to tell it's not made in Germany. There is a certain way in which the Passat of this era was built that not even the new model can exactly replicate. Mind you it was only by chance that I went to drive this car as I thought that Japanese cars were the all end for performane and build quality. I was mainly comparing them to domestic cars though. The minute I drove the Passat and studied the small intricate and thoughtfull details (first-aid box, real wood interior trim, switchblade key, dual trip computer, AC vent in glove box, racheting armrest, illumination for all switches, even the AC vents), I realized I had been fooling myself thinking Honda was the all-end. They are damn good at what they do for the prices they charge, but cheap out in comparison. So that's why I base quality on the way the car is constructed and built. Yes a Passat may have problems, but the physical car is stll built like a tank.

 

Good point. Passat has electrical issues sometimes but it is built very very solidly. The last gen was really impressive compared to its competition at the time.