GM/F/C bail out talk
11-20-08 | 12:48 PM
#136
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Levin is saying the "bipartisan" plan is to give the previously approved section 136 environmental retooling funds to Commerce and let them start writing checks. They feel they could pass it in the Senate (don't think so) but the leadership has decided to take two weeks to sort out the restructure plans, which was why Pelosi and Reid went first, and then it goes to Congress for debate on Dec. 8. Should be interesting.
There is no bipartisan bill IMO. Party affiliation means little to nothing. This is a North vs South battle from what I can see. What a hoot.
There is no bipartisan bill IMO. Party affiliation means little to nothing. This is a North vs South battle from what I can see. What a hoot.
11-20-08 | 01:02 PM
#137
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Levin is saying the "bipartisan" plan is to give the previously approved section 136 environmental retooling funds to Commerce and let them start writing checks. They feel they could pass it in the Senate (don't think so) but the leadership has decided to take two weeks to sort out the restructure plans, which was why Pelosi and Reid went first, and then it goes to Congress for debate on Dec. 8. Should be interesting.
There is no bipartisan bill IMO. Party affiliation means little to nothing. This is a North vs South battle from what I can see. What a hoot.
There is no bipartisan bill IMO. Party affiliation means little to nothing. This is a North vs South battle from what I can see. What a hoot.
11-20-08 | 01:19 PM
#138
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Well, it is hard to say where anything is. Reid and Pelosi said that there is no plan in circulation that will pass both the Senate and the House and be signed by the President. So this bipartisan bill has to be a bunch of hoohah.
I still think Cerberus is the wild card. They are back saying they are willing to merge with GM if the gov throws the bailout money at them. I don't think they will be quite as vocal as GM with their condition or plans. I also don't see them being very upfront with Congress about their financial situation. I have a feeling Congress will adjourn and they will blow out of town within 24 hours. Dec. 3 or Dec. 8 may be awfully optimistic to start working this out.
I still think Cerberus is the wild card. They are back saying they are willing to merge with GM if the gov throws the bailout money at them. I don't think they will be quite as vocal as GM with their condition or plans. I also don't see them being very upfront with Congress about their financial situation. I have a feeling Congress will adjourn and they will blow out of town within 24 hours. Dec. 3 or Dec. 8 may be awfully optimistic to start working this out.
11-20-08 | 01:25 PM
#139
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+1... because I don't think anyone wants to associated with legislation or lack thereof that causes the loss of 1-3 million jobs and the resulting/oncoming depression... if someone out there doesn't think it's coming (or a prolonged recession), I'm all ears... what a godawful mess 
I trust (and all the data supports) bankruptcy 11 so there can be some salvaging and shot at recovery for the auto industry.
Remember, US automakers crash hurts ALL global automakers....
I trust (and all the data supports) bankruptcy 11 so there can be some salvaging and shot at recovery for the auto industry.Remember, US automakers crash hurts ALL global automakers....
11-20-08 | 01:30 PM
#140
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Really? You don't think that GM and Ford suffer from overhead and model "cross-talk" on their additional brands? Mercury and Buick both need to DIE. GM and Ford want bailouts? Then sell off some of your company's capital to make up the difference. THATS my point. Taxpayers are bailing out a FAILED business. GM and Ford need to push the case on HOW they're going to become profitable again and the things I outlined can make sure of that. There are so many BAD decisions by the boards of both companies (who in the **** approved the Aztek? what about all the hideous Lincoln models coming out? Current GM small-car quality?).
These are problems that could have been stopped by someone that is motivated by more than instantaneous profit and is focused on making more cash over a long period of time. You do that by improving the actual and perceived quality of the brand. Maybe everyone resigning isn't the perfect idea; but those who are in charge should not be there anymore (I'm talking to YOU, Bob Lutz).
I think it is nearly unanimous that the UAW has to go. There are 6 figure incomes for those that have no college education and work on the assembly floor. Bolting parts together in a predefined manner is one of the easiest jobs ever conceived. Thats what made the assembly line so great; the jobs weren't MEANT to pay well because it was subdivided enough to be easy work for the lay-man. Now its almost like the 3rd generation welfare we have in this country; a lot of people assume they are entitled.
When you've got a major bill that you owe like a hospital or say you have a kid on the way... you SELL the things you don't really need to make "room" (be it room as in more available cash or physical room like trading a sports car in for a minivan or sedan).
Ask yourself this: If you were going to loan someone some money because they mismanaged their finances, what would you do? The good person in you might give them the benefit of the doubt? But what if they had a history of mismanaging their money in the past? Would you do it then? What if you had a bad feeling that you'd never see that money again and they had put forth NO plan for paying you back? Now make the loan amount a BILLION dollars.
These are problems that could have been stopped by someone that is motivated by more than instantaneous profit and is focused on making more cash over a long period of time. You do that by improving the actual and perceived quality of the brand. Maybe everyone resigning isn't the perfect idea; but those who are in charge should not be there anymore (I'm talking to YOU, Bob Lutz).
I think it is nearly unanimous that the UAW has to go. There are 6 figure incomes for those that have no college education and work on the assembly floor. Bolting parts together in a predefined manner is one of the easiest jobs ever conceived. Thats what made the assembly line so great; the jobs weren't MEANT to pay well because it was subdivided enough to be easy work for the lay-man. Now its almost like the 3rd generation welfare we have in this country; a lot of people assume they are entitled.
When you've got a major bill that you owe like a hospital or say you have a kid on the way... you SELL the things you don't really need to make "room" (be it room as in more available cash or physical room like trading a sports car in for a minivan or sedan).
Ask yourself this: If you were going to loan someone some money because they mismanaged their finances, what would you do? The good person in you might give them the benefit of the doubt? But what if they had a history of mismanaging their money in the past? Would you do it then? What if you had a bad feeling that you'd never see that money again and they had put forth NO plan for paying you back? Now make the loan amount a BILLION dollars.
You said GM and Ford should sell their divisions. I said Ford has already done so. Killing off is not selling. Killing off is not easy nor is it cheap but obviously all things need to be on the table for consideration.
I already stated in a post back to CDNRockies that bailout money should be tied to revised recovery plans. You're still blanket attacking the Big 3 while I'm saying Ford's position is different from that of GM and Chrysler. GM and Chrysler also are in different, but still very troubling predicaments.
Hideous Lincolns? That is not fact and no point debating. Last I checked the MKS has been selling well in light of the current situation and is number 2 or 3 in sales in its class. Again, you not liking the MKS or the upcoming MKT does not make all Lincolns hideous.
History of mismanaging? The big 3 also have a history of raking in profits during the SUV and big truck days. It's not all negative. Again take the time to understand the difference in the teams in place. Wagoner and his group was there 8+ years ago so yes, GM's leadership team is very much at fault for the current predicament and the existing recovery plan.
Mullaly's team has barely been at Ford. I'm pointing out that the general statements you made will solve nothing. Firing Ford's team means dismissing Mullay and Farley and all the new executives brought on board to clean up the mess that was there prior. Look at the job Mullaly has actually done stemming some of the losses. Yes Ford has been taking a hit, but without Mullaly's plan Ford's losses would have been several billion more.
As for the UAW, that's a different discussion and one that I don't have a position on yet.
11-20-08 | 01:44 PM
#143
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+1... because I don't think anyone wants to associated with legislation or lack thereof that causes the loss of 1-3 million jobs and the resulting/oncoming depression... if someone out there doesn't think it's coming (or a prolonged recession), I'm all ears... what a godawful mess I trust (and all the data supports) bankruptcy 11 so there can be some salvaging and shot at recovery for the auto industry.
Remember, US automakers crash hurts ALL global automakers....
I trust (and all the data supports) bankruptcy 11 so there can be some salvaging and shot at recovery for the auto industry.Remember, US automakers crash hurts ALL global automakers....
I don't necessarily want to disagree on any particular point, especially the godawful mess part, but I do think you have to put time frames in. Failure of one or more US automakers, and I don't see all of them failing as in liquidation under any possible scenario, would have a short term effect on many other manufacturers and suppliers. But in the long run, the US auto company that survives, and the foreign manufacturers and suppliers (whether importing or building plants here) will do much better as they makeup the sales volume. Should be even more opportunities for foreign mfrs to build plants here.
I don't know what annual sales rate we are going back to but it should be considerably higher than now. And with the diseased part of the US suppliers gone, there would be sales here to be made. I would much rather buy from an efficient, profitable producer.
11-20-08 | 01:46 PM
#144
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Waggoner has steadfastly refused to even consider bankruptcy. And IMO, what Congress wants over the next two weeks is a Chapter 11 bankruptcy restructure plan. So we'll see how much longer GM d--ks around. Should be interesting.
11-20-08 | 01:53 PM
#145
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Huh??? That is the most a@@ backward logic that I have heard in a long time.
So someone else makes a better product at lower cost, so the U.S. should exclude the product from their market to protect themselves rather than being competitive??? Didn't think this was how U.S. free market capitalism worked.
So someone else makes a better product at lower cost, so the U.S. should exclude the product from their market to protect themselves rather than being competitive??? Didn't think this was how U.S. free market capitalism worked.
Alabama acted as a state, through hundreds of millions where it would the most good, attracted foreign manufacturers, and are now benefitting from thousands of jobs. So Mercedes and Hyundai and Bimmer decided not to put plants in Michigan. Might want to figure out why that is. Why Gettelfinger wanted to pi** off any state, or their senators and representatives is beyond me. What a putz.
But then I don't suppose the UAW wants to talk at all about auto manufacturing plants that are operating satisfactorily. Might make those turnaround arguments that GFC were spewing look pretty weak.
11-20-08 | 02:20 PM
#147
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.... But in the long run, the US auto company that survives, and the foreign manufacturers and suppliers (whether importing or building plants here) will do much better as they makeup the sales volume. Should be even more opportunities for foreign mfrs to build plants here...... And with the diseased part of the US suppliers gone, there would be sales here to be made. I would much rather buy from an efficient, profitable producer.
11-20-08 | 02:27 PM
#149
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I have to tell you, I know Gettelfinger has only one thing on his mind, that is keeping his job, but when I heard that this morning, I thought it was the stupidest thing he could have come out and said. He really went on for some time craping all over Alabama as the center of the problem for the subsidies that they have given to attract Hyundai and Mercedes auto plants (sorry for those I left out in Ala, but those are the ones I remember Gettelfinger mentioning).
Alabama acted as a state, through hundreds of millions where it would the most good, attracted foreign manufacturers, and are now benefitting from thousands of jobs. So Mercedes and Hyundai and Bimmer decided not to put plants in Michigan. Might want to figure out why that is. Why Gettelfinger wanted to pi** off any state, or their senators and representatives is beyond me. What a putz.
But then I don't suppose the UAW wants to talk at all about auto manufacturing plants that are operating satisfactorily. Might make those turnaround arguments that GFC were spewing look pretty weak.
Alabama acted as a state, through hundreds of millions where it would the most good, attracted foreign manufacturers, and are now benefitting from thousands of jobs. So Mercedes and Hyundai and Bimmer decided not to put plants in Michigan. Might want to figure out why that is. Why Gettelfinger wanted to pi** off any state, or their senators and representatives is beyond me. What a putz.
But then I don't suppose the UAW wants to talk at all about auto manufacturing plants that are operating satisfactorily. Might make those turnaround arguments that GFC were spewing look pretty weak.
It seems the Big 3 have some serious thinking to do before they reconvine in a few months and re-ask for the handout, they can stand their ground and say we are not changing to suit you and hope a union friendly Obama will just give them what they want or they will actually start to implement the drastic changes the Big 3 and the UAW must make. It is both their fault, not just one or the other and both need to make changes quick if they want to survive and get assistance from the government.
11-20-08 | 02:45 PM
#150
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I just laughed at how much an idiot Gettelfinger is for singling out Alabama and trying to blame them for everything. He is so pathetic. He should come down to Alabama that is proudly non union and see how nice it is having all these non Union plants that still pay good wages and offer decent reasonable benefits and how well they are doing and are in no danger of going under or needing to make drastic cuts. I am so glad Alabama is not the decaying crime ridden sinkhole Detroit is right now and Alabama has more moral common sense business practices. Huntsville, AL is a very nice place to live and has a sold large middle to upper middle class with many coming here to work and live and it is improving and growing every year, I don't notice too many miserable people hear and too much crime like I notice in Delaware and other union blue states. I live off and on in the heavy union blue state of Delaware with a Chrysler plant that just shut down and worked at the GM plant that will be going under before 2012 and I will take Alabama's current situation and environment anyday. Unions have done nothing to really help Delaware and have hurt it much more, the solid middle class and affordable suburban middle class homes and a decent lifestyle on a middle income are quickly disappearing from Delaware and crime is skyrocketing, it is not pretty.
It seems the Big 3 have some serious thinking to do before they reconvine in a few months and re-ask for the handout, they can stand their ground and say we are not changing to suit you and hope a union friendly Obama will just give them what they want or they will actually start to implement the drastic changes the Big 3 and the UAW must make. It is both their fault, not just one or the other and both need to make changes quick if they want to survive and get assistance from the government.
It seems the Big 3 have some serious thinking to do before they reconvine in a few months and re-ask for the handout, they can stand their ground and say we are not changing to suit you and hope a union friendly Obama will just give them what they want or they will actually start to implement the drastic changes the Big 3 and the UAW must make. It is both their fault, not just one or the other and both need to make changes quick if they want to survive and get assistance from the government.
I am not sure how to get details of the UAW contract because I have heard anectdotal information that in 2010 the UAW has already agreed to provisions that make it much easier for GFC to get rid of union workers but I don't think there is any way that GFC can be viable with their union contracts. I am not saying it is their only problem, that would probably be too big a list to post. But in their list of problems, jettisoning the UAW contract is a no brainer. And their pension plan is off to PBGC. That might not make DC happy but you are better off dealing with the real big problems rather than trying to mask them with a smaller check IMO.