GM/F/C bail out talk
11-19-08, 05:48 AM
#32
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Guys let's please keep this conversation on the topic and not on the individuals discussing the topic. Back up your points with details and facts as best you can and understand not everyone is going to agree with your viewpoint. Not agreeing is OK; just keep this a discussion about GM or the bailout.
11-19-08, 06:02 AM
#33
I know it doesn't matter how many models you have. But the statement that Waggoner made was just as I said. To be blunt, I figure Toyota has to have more than ten models that get over 30 mpg highway. I could be wrong. I just figured there would be enough people here to list them. Maybe not.
11-19-08, 06:07 AM
#34
The Fit is actually one of the few cars that GM can indeed compete with. The Chevy Aveo 2LT, for example (not the base Aveo), simply blows the Fit's versatile but cheaply-done interior away in plushness, quality, and trim. (I'm sure you've seen the photos that me and others have posted). But, of course, the Aveo is not a true GM product, being built by Daewoo of Korea for Chevy.
Thats cheap Daewoo POS, one of the worst cars on the market... 2LT costs as much as Corolla.
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/chevro..._2006/250.aspx
(it one of the worst rated cars in the history of EuroNCAP, earning only 1 star... 9 year old Yaris gets 4 stars on the same test)... current model is just an facelift, same car with different nose.)
11-19-08, 06:30 AM
#35
Lexus Fanatic
i agree EPA rating doesn't necessarily correlate with real driving, however i disagree it's useless though. i actually think it's a good way to compare between cars. coz' all the EPA ratings are achieved with same setup, so it's truly comparable
real life numbers could be so deceiving it's not close to be meaningful. even with for example gs350, you get people saying from 19mpg to 30mpg easy.
so in that sense, i am pretty happy with the EPA system. not for the numbers but for comparisons
real life numbers could be so deceiving it's not close to be meaningful. even with for example gs350, you get people saying from 19mpg to 30mpg easy.
so in that sense, i am pretty happy with the EPA system. not for the numbers but for comparisons
11-19-08, 06:36 AM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
If you think I'm kidding, go look at a 2LT for yourself and examine the wood, brushed metal, and general interior/exterior trim quality and smoothness of fit/finish. Then go look at a Fit, and compare the two. If you come up with a different opinion than mine (which is your perogative......like me, you've been looking at new cars for a long time)..........fine, I'll respect it.
But, even before you get to the dealership.....here is a quick visual comparison of the two:
Fit
Aveo 2LT
Last edited by mmarshall; 11-19-08 at 06:52 AM.
11-19-08, 07:03 AM
#38
Lexus Fanatic
I agree wholeheartedly... Look at Mitsubishi... One of Japan's largest corporations. Their auto division was in big trouble not too long ago, but now, it appears, without looking at numbers, that they are on their way back... They'll never be huge, but they are doing OK now, without any government bailout...
There is not a day goes by that I don't estimate replacement of front wheel bearings and/or tie rod ends on a Impala/Malibu/Century/Regal. That same line of vehicle, if it was built between 1995 and 2002 and had a 6 cylinder engine, had about a 75% chance of having leaking intake manifold gaskets, roughly a $600 repair (if it was caught before the coolant leaked into the oil and spun a rod bearing)... I could go on and on about GM's lack of reliability, and I completely understand the downline affects of GM folding, but at the same time, it's too little too late...
For instance, my ex-boss, several years ago, wanted a new Yukon XL (Suburban), and asked me for advice. I went with him to look at one and test-drive it. The brakes on it were so poor it scared me.
We check-drove some other similiar GM vehicles....same thing.
11-19-08, 07:47 AM
#39
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11-19-08, 10:39 AM
#40
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Want to see how many Chevy's there are that GM counts?
Cobalt XFE Coupe
Cobalt XFE Sedan
Malibu Hybrid
Aveo5
Aveo Sedan
Malibu
HHR
HHR Panel
http://www.chevrolet.com/fuelsolutio..._FUELSOLUTIONS
Cobalt XFE Coupe
Cobalt XFE Sedan
Malibu Hybrid
Aveo5
Aveo Sedan
Malibu
HHR
HHR Panel
http://www.chevrolet.com/fuelsolutio..._FUELSOLUTIONS
11-19-08, 11:47 AM
#41
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Geez louise, has this thing gone off the rails. There is a lively discussion on the auto bailout in the Debate Forum and it wasn't my intention to start another one here.
I didn't actually think it would be difficult for GM to say they have over 20 models that get over 30mpg highway, as meaningless as it is. But it was Waggoner's boast that that was twice as many as any other car maker that got to me.
Now no one has generated specific numbers but I was really curious if Toyota falls into this category of having 10 or less models that get 30mpg or better highway. That was about it. I have to believe that Toyota does have over 10 models that get that mileage and as spwolf points out, they have a lot more cars that probably average that number.
In all honesty, I may not be surprised if Ford has more than ten models that also get over 30mpg highway. I don't know how Wagoner/GM got their number and what wiggle room they have for how they define "model" but I think he really was blowing smoke up the Senate's skirt yesterday. It is just that the elected officials know so little about the car biz, and they had such little time, that no one called him on it. And that was just one of a string of "misrepresentations" that GM, Ford, and Chrysler made in order to leave DC with their checks.
But, like I said, if you want to simply debate the various bailouts and causes for GMs problems, it is probably much better suited to the Debate Forum. But thanks to those of you who did post relevant comments. And the one about the number of different "models" that are the same car for GM was one I hadn't thought of either. Good point.
I didn't actually think it would be difficult for GM to say they have over 20 models that get over 30mpg highway, as meaningless as it is. But it was Waggoner's boast that that was twice as many as any other car maker that got to me.
Now no one has generated specific numbers but I was really curious if Toyota falls into this category of having 10 or less models that get 30mpg or better highway. That was about it. I have to believe that Toyota does have over 10 models that get that mileage and as spwolf points out, they have a lot more cars that probably average that number.
In all honesty, I may not be surprised if Ford has more than ten models that also get over 30mpg highway. I don't know how Wagoner/GM got their number and what wiggle room they have for how they define "model" but I think he really was blowing smoke up the Senate's skirt yesterday. It is just that the elected officials know so little about the car biz, and they had such little time, that no one called him on it. And that was just one of a string of "misrepresentations" that GM, Ford, and Chrysler made in order to leave DC with their checks.
But, like I said, if you want to simply debate the various bailouts and causes for GMs problems, it is probably much better suited to the Debate Forum. But thanks to those of you who did post relevant comments. And the one about the number of different "models" that are the same car for GM was one I hadn't thought of either. Good point.
11-19-08, 12:37 PM
#42
Sad but true, GM is still alive to cover up the fact that US is in a recession. If it's coming sooner or later, might as well be now so we can start the recovery process asap.
11-19-08, 12:47 PM
#43
Moderator
Well I see you and many others here and close to no clue what macroeconomics is.
"Burn to the ground" - stunning. So you're inviting a depression? Have you turned on your television set lately? Do you know what state the economy is currently in? And here some of you are adovating the "burning" of the economies largest manufacturing base. Forget the unprecedented levels of unemployment, just think what affect the multiplyer would have on the loss of GDP to this nation where spending to drop to a standstill. Forget about the unions, forget about all this frankly, garbage, that some people want to make a partisan game out of...Wake up and realize that you can't play with fire, and playing around with something as important as this is not any time for some hashed-over personal views on domestic cars. This is about the US economy, about unemployment, about whether we stay in a sustainable recession, or we spiral uncontrollably into a depression. Some people do not understand.
"Burn to the ground" - stunning. So you're inviting a depression? Have you turned on your television set lately? Do you know what state the economy is currently in? And here some of you are adovating the "burning" of the economies largest manufacturing base. Forget the unprecedented levels of unemployment, just think what affect the multiplyer would have on the loss of GDP to this nation where spending to drop to a standstill. Forget about the unions, forget about all this frankly, garbage, that some people want to make a partisan game out of...Wake up and realize that you can't play with fire, and playing around with something as important as this is not any time for some hashed-over personal views on domestic cars. This is about the US economy, about unemployment, about whether we stay in a sustainable recession, or we spiral uncontrollably into a depression. Some people do not understand.
I'm sure many members here are well versed in economics, accounting, finance and business. No need to state that no one here has a clue about macroeconomics.
There's a thread here somewhere that asks if one is for a bail out or not for the American automakers and most agree that we should not bail out the American automakers...and I agree. It's a painfull lesson and it's tough love but we have to move on...
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...33#post4009833
R.I.P. General Motors...
Last edited by Trexus; 11-19-08 at 01:06 PM.
11-19-08, 01:19 PM
#44
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I'm sure many members here are well versed in economics, accounting, finance and business. No need to state that no one here has a clue about macroeconomics.
There's a thread here somewhere that asks if one is for a bail out or not for the American automakers and most agree that we should not bail out the American automakers...and I agree. It's a painfull lesson and it's tough love but we have to move on...
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...33#post4009833
R.I.P. General Motors...
There's a thread here somewhere that asks if one is for a bail out or not for the American automakers and most agree that we should not bail out the American automakers...and I agree. It's a painfull lesson and it's tough love but we have to move on...
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...33#post4009833
R.I.P. General Motors...
Frankly, this is a dicussion left up to people with vast knowledge of economics and financial markets, not some joe slo who has disdain for domestic companies and who can make some offhand remarks about Unions and the free market. Some people just need to look at all the facts and then make a decision, instead of looking at it with polarizing anti-domestic, anti-GM blinders on, which IS happening here and across the country. This is not some opportunity to break down union laws forever, to do away with unions, the doemstic base of this country. It's like some people are championing GM to fail because they simply don't like their cars, which is tremendously sad. I would have hoped people would realize what many of my friends and other top economists KNOW will be a pivitol blow to an already limping economy. Letting them fall is not an option, as Obama, Paulson, Bush, and many Republicans have realized. There WILL be a bailout, because it's the intelligent thing to do in this situation.
11-19-08, 01:24 PM
#45
Lexus Test Driver
