Trexus

Let's look at GM. They've been losing money since 2005. The last time they were profitable was 2004. How much longer can GM survive? When GM losses money, they really lose money. It's unprecedented. Why should GM get a loan, bailout, handout or whatever you wanna call it. Please see their financials below. Remember those losses are in Billions.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=GM&annual

Let GM go under. All those employees that get laid off can go work for Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Subaru, Mitsubishi, BMW, Volkwagen, Ford or Chrysler.

All those former GM customers can go buy Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura, Nissan, Infiniti, BMW, Mercedes, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Subaru, Volkswagen, Tesla, Jaguar, Volvo, Mazda, Ford or Chrysler. Those former GM customers are still gonna need cars and trucks...

R.I.P. General Motors...

FKL

Well first I notice you left out my last statement, which shows that you are ignoring the reality that GM WILL be given a loan from the government. Ford doesn't even want the money, but knows that even the bankrupcy filing of GM will send countless dealers and suppliers into the ground. Their manufacturing will be severely hampered, as will every other make with a plant in the US, including Toyota, BMW, Hyundai, etc.

You want to "let GM go under" becuase they have been loosing money for four years. I may agree with that statement if our economy wasn't in an already deep recession. I don't even care for GM vehicles per say, but I realize the disasterious consequences of a Ch. 11 filling, much less a complete Ch. 7 liquidation. You're effectively adovocating another huge shock to an already plundering economy. If you thought it was bad now, watch how great it is when 3 million people join the ranks as unemployed. This magic theory that other manufactures will pick up all of those workers is in itself absurd. The economy as a whole will be in such a tailspin that more layoffs will be made from other manufactures. It will take years for equilibrium to materialize and at that point you are inviting Great Depression #2. The costs are much too high to let any three of these companies enter Ch. 11, or liquidate, which many economists see as the nightmare senario for the US economy in it's current ultra-fragile state.

FKL

Keep in mind capitalism also says no to government transfer payments, no to any government regulation or oversight of any sort, not to mention bailling out your banking industry.. We are not a true capitalism society.

mmarshall

If that's the case, then why should GM go to the Federal Government for money? The Federal Government is the ULTIMATE in unprofitibility....their deficts will make GM's look like pocket change.

8speed

I have a message to the big three CEO's........you want to save your companies? You can start by selling off your multi-million dollar leer jets you flew to the hearings on capital hill and you can re-distribute your multi-million dollar end of year bonuses


I hate the dead horse


And the panel on CNBC's Fast Money are ripping these idiots to shreds saying that they showed up in their million dollar jets, with absolutely no economic plan to speak of, blaming the economy for their shortcomings even though the automakers have seen their market share deteriorate for decades when the economy was doing great!

Classic

mmarshall

You're getting off your own topic, though...the low GM stock price.

I don't see GM stock staying very low, very long, especially if they get the money they want. There are a whole multitude of investors right now just looking for cheap stocks. As soon as they start buying them up, up the price will go again. That's basically why the Dow had had such wild swings up and down for the last couple of months.

8speed

It's my topic....I'm allowed to go off of it

CDNROCKIES

I think everyone gets the point that you support the bailout. I also think that everyone recognizes that there will be significant consequences if any of the Big 3 declare bankruptcy, though the extent and severity is debatable. And again owning an import car has nothing to do with anything.

You, or anyone else who supports the bailout, has still yet to provide any explanation of exactly how the bailout money is supposed to change the future of the Big 3 on a long term basis. The justifiable concern of the majority of those that oppose the bailout is that the Big 3 will receive the money and continue to burn through their cash reserves, essentially only prolonging the inevitable. So a year from now we have the exact same conversation when they are looking for more cash? At the rate that they are burning cash, $25 billion will not go very far. Where are the re-assurances that there will be restructuring at the executive level, salaries and bonuses will be brought into line, the UAW will allow them to be competitive with the other non-union labor forces, that the product line/quality will be improved and moved in a new direction? Where is the guarantee that the money will be repaid in full before the execs and shareholders get rich?

None of these questions have been addressed and that is what concerns many.

Dave600hL

You are delusional if you think 3 million people will be out of work if GM was to go under.

You , as you seem to think you are the bees knees in ecconomics, should know that there are many ways this can be solved. One way, the company could be broken up and sold to other cars makers who are interested, is it viable? I don't know, but you certainly have not opened your mind to other possibilities. How about you take those blinkers off and listen to a few others?

And as for your comments on people being "anti GM", why should people sit back and watch incompetent upper management spend your hard earned dollars. I think it goes far deeper than people just bashing GM IMO .

Trexus

Exactly! Why let the blind lead or help the blind. Let GM die. No need to prolong the inevitable...

R.I.P. General Motors...

8speed

Amen.....CNBC posted a stat today that said the layoff would be more like a million and that would increase the unemployment rate to 8.5 from 8.0 which is high, but hardly at 30-40% levels we saw during the great depression! And let's not forget companies like K-mart, who was able to restructure and turn things around and a few other Airlines that made it through chapter 11. CNBC also said that the odds of GM and others going under is 75%

LET THEM BURN........get off the dead horse and beat it!!!!

RX300-BV

First off, people need to stop lumping the big 3 all together. The big 3 have taken a beating is what they have in common, but that is pretty much the case with all manufacturers. The difference in the big 3 is their recovery/turn around plan. Of the big 3, Ford is in the best position. They have a solid turn around plan and are in a much better cash position than GM. Ford also is better positioned with upcoming vehicle offerings, from the now refreshed Fusion triplets, to the upcoming Fiesta, and even beyond with the Euro Fusion. Ford has also worked hard to move up on the reliability scale and is now on a push for class leading fuel efficiency along with much improved interiors. Besides the standard hybrid approach, Ford also has their Ecoboost engines about one more year away.

Ford is already retooling truck plants for small cars and have been adjusting output as needed as opposed to just building and storing huge stockpiles of cars.

Ford is not operating under the assumption that they will receive bail out money, and as FKL pointed out, Ford isn't really seeking bailout money for itself, but more so for GM. But I'm sure if the government offers money, Ford would consider taking it.

One of the problems with GM going down would be the hit to the supplier base. That hit would affect the manufacturers beyond GM, including Toyota.

8speed

Word.....the CEO's of the big three can start by rejecting their multi-million dollar year end bonuses and selling their million dollar jets they flew to capital hill on!

mmarshall

Come on, get serious. Dumping off a couple of planes is not going to save the company or those jobs. That's like picking up a couple of grains of sand on a beach and dropping them in the water. And what if they gave up their salaries? That still wouldn't cover very many people, considering what the average UAW worker gets in salary, vacation, insurance, and retirement.........maybe a few hundered employees at most.

I understand where you are coming from, but you can't move a mountain with a tablespoon, which is what you are suggesting. To save GM we are talking BILLIONS.......many billions, not just millions like CEOs make.

And THAT's the real problem. GM needs the kind of money that even Uncle sam can't provide......that's why I posted the question, above, a few posts back, of why GM is going to Uncle Sam in the first place. The Government itself is the ultimate example of unprofitibility....and defecits.

CDNROCKIES

Hmmm....same could be said for throwing $25 Billion at companies that are burning cash at a rate of between $4-8 Billion per quarter with no concrete plans to restructure or change their business models

If GM does own 7 private planes at an average of $30M per, and it costs $20K per flight, we're talking about an easy quarter of a billion dollars, not exactly insignificant money. Add in the total exec wages and bonuses and you can quickly see how ridiculously top heavy GM is. This doesn't take into consideration the rest of their compensation packages either.