GM/F/C bail out talk
11-19-08, 04:03 PM
#61
Lexus Test Driver
First off, people need to stop lumping the big 3 all together. The big 3 have taken a beating is what they have in common, but that is pretty much the case with all manufacturers. The difference in the big 3 is their recovery/turn around plan. Of the big 3, Ford is in the best position. They have a solid turn around plan and are in a much better cash position than GM. Ford also is better positioned with upcoming vehicle offerings, from the now refreshed Fusion triplets, to the upcoming Fiesta, and even beyond with the Euro Fusion. Ford has also worked hard to move up on the reliability scale and is now on a push for class leading fuel efficiency along with much improved interiors. Besides the standard hybrid approach, Ford also has their Ecoboost engines about one more year away.
Ford is already retooling truck plants for small cars and have been adjusting output as needed as opposed to just building and storing huge stockpiles of cars.
Ford is not operating under the assumption that they will receive bail out money, and as FKL pointed out, Ford isn't really seeking bailout money for itself, but more so for GM. But I'm sure if the government offers money, Ford would consider taking it.
One of the problems with GM going down would be the hit to the supplier base. That hit would affect the manufacturers beyond GM, including Toyota.
Ford is already retooling truck plants for small cars and have been adjusting output as needed as opposed to just building and storing huge stockpiles of cars.
Ford is not operating under the assumption that they will receive bail out money, and as FKL pointed out, Ford isn't really seeking bailout money for itself, but more so for GM. But I'm sure if the government offers money, Ford would consider taking it.
One of the problems with GM going down would be the hit to the supplier base. That hit would affect the manufacturers beyond GM, including Toyota.
11-19-08, 04:07 PM
#62
Lexus Test Driver
Come on, get serious. 
Dumping off a couple of planes is not going to save the company or those jobs. That's like picking up a couple of grains of sand on a beach and dropping it in the water. And what if they gave up their salaries?..........That still wouldn't cover very many people, considering what the average UAW worker gets in salary, vacation, insurance, and retirement.
I understand where you are coming from, but you can't move a mountain with a tablespoon, which is what you are suggesting. To save GM we are talking BILLIONS.......many billions, not just millions like CEOs make.
Dumping off a couple of planes is not going to save the company or those jobs. That's like picking up a couple of grains of sand on a beach and dropping it in the water. And what if they gave up their salaries?..........That still wouldn't cover very many people, considering what the average UAW worker gets in salary, vacation, insurance, and retirement.I understand where you are coming from, but you can't move a mountain with a tablespoon, which is what you are suggesting. To save GM we are talking BILLIONS.......many billions, not just millions like CEOs make.
11-19-08, 04:08 PM
#63
Lexus Champion
I have tried to stay away from comparing companies, but although I agree with you, you have to wonder why in 2007 Rick Wagoner netted $14.4m, this figure is more than the combined amount that the top 9 executives of Toyota recived that year. Think about that for a while.
11-19-08, 04:09 PM
#64
Ya know how I feel about all of this really? (our corporation does over 4 billion annually, which is nothing compared to GM, but, we employ 60,000 plus and are part of a much larger worldwide corporation that does about 30 billion annually)
I feel like we are getting screwed... Where's our bailout money? Oh wait, we managed costs and are still turning a profit... We changed the way we did business by cutting costs, hiring freezes, and other things in order to avoid having issues ourselves...
I feel like we are getting screwed... Where's our bailout money? Oh wait, we managed costs and are still turning a profit... We changed the way we did business by cutting costs, hiring freezes, and other things in order to avoid having issues ourselves...
11-19-08, 04:12 PM
#65
Lexus Champion
Ya know how I feel about all of this really? (our corporation does over 4 billion annually, which is nothing compared to GM, but, we employ 60,000 plus and are part of a much larger worldwide corporation that does about 30 billion annually)
I feel like we are getting screwed... Where's our bailout money? Oh wait, we managed costs and are still turning a profit... We changed the way we did business by cutting costs, hiring freezes, and other things in order to avoid having issues ourselves...
I feel like we are getting screwed... Where's our bailout money? Oh wait, we managed costs and are still turning a profit... We changed the way we did business by cutting costs, hiring freezes, and other things in order to avoid having issues ourselves...
11-19-08, 04:15 PM
#66
I honestly don't mind the big 3 getting bailouts so long as a few things are observed:
1) Every person on the current board of directors for each company and anyone else related to how the companies were run over the past 10 years resigns.
2) A huge review of all internal processes and efficiencies is performed.
3) The UAW is cut completely out of the picture. If the workers strike, fire them and hire new employees at a 30% reduction in pay. Offer anyone who is fired for striking to be rehired for a 25% reduction in pay.
4) A top-down restructuring of all pay-scales and management positions.
5) GM and Ford required to sell off some of their brands to smaller manufacturers. Chrysler can stop with the godawful Dodge RAM ads.
If that happens, then I don't mind so much. These companies are so screwed from the get-go; they need complete restructuring. And if that dip**** Waggoner wants to play the whole "its good for America" thing; then he needs to do what is best for his company: resign. At that point the companies should take the bailout money to ensure the pensions for any existing workers and those already retired and invest the remainder into a new series of vehicles besides SUVs.
1) Every person on the current board of directors for each company and anyone else related to how the companies were run over the past 10 years resigns.
2) A huge review of all internal processes and efficiencies is performed.
3) The UAW is cut completely out of the picture. If the workers strike, fire them and hire new employees at a 30% reduction in pay. Offer anyone who is fired for striking to be rehired for a 25% reduction in pay.
4) A top-down restructuring of all pay-scales and management positions.
5) GM and Ford required to sell off some of their brands to smaller manufacturers. Chrysler can stop with the godawful Dodge RAM ads.
If that happens, then I don't mind so much. These companies are so screwed from the get-go; they need complete restructuring. And if that dip**** Waggoner wants to play the whole "its good for America" thing; then he needs to do what is best for his company: resign. At that point the companies should take the bailout money to ensure the pensions for any existing workers and those already retired and invest the remainder into a new series of vehicles besides SUVs.
Last edited by Bean; 11-19-08 at 04:20 PM.
11-19-08, 04:18 PM
#67
Lexus Champion
I honestly don't mind the big 3 getting bailouts so long as a few things are observed:
1) Every person on the current board of directors for each company and anyone else related to how the companies were run over the past 10 years resigns.
2) A huge review of all internal processes and efficiencies is performed.
3) The UAW is cut completely out of the picture. If the workers strike, fire them and hire new employees at a 30% reduction in pay. Offer anyone who is fired for striking to be rehired for a 25% reduction in pay.
4) A top-down restructuring of all pay-scales and management positions.
5) GM and Ford required to sell off some of their brands to smaller manufacturers.
If that happens, then I don't mind so much. These companies are so screwed from the get-go; they need complete restructuring. And if that dip**** Waggoner wants to play the whole "its good for America" thing; then he needs to do what is best for his company: resign.
1) Every person on the current board of directors for each company and anyone else related to how the companies were run over the past 10 years resigns.
2) A huge review of all internal processes and efficiencies is performed.
3) The UAW is cut completely out of the picture. If the workers strike, fire them and hire new employees at a 30% reduction in pay. Offer anyone who is fired for striking to be rehired for a 25% reduction in pay.
4) A top-down restructuring of all pay-scales and management positions.
5) GM and Ford required to sell off some of their brands to smaller manufacturers.
If that happens, then I don't mind so much. These companies are so screwed from the get-go; they need complete restructuring. And if that dip**** Waggoner wants to play the whole "its good for America" thing; then he needs to do what is best for his company: resign.
11-19-08, 04:20 PM
#68
Lexus Champion
I honestly don't mind the big 3 getting bailouts so long as a few things are observed:
1) Every person on the current board of directors for each company and anyone else related to how the companies were run over the past 10 years resigns.
2) A huge review of all internal processes and efficiencies is performed.
3) The UAW is cut completely out of the picture. If the workers strike, fire them and hire new employees at a 30% reduction in pay. Offer anyone who is fired for striking to be rehired for a 25% reduction in pay.
4) A top-down restructuring of all pay-scales and management positions.
5) GM and Ford required to sell off some of their brands to smaller manufacturers.
If that happens, then I don't mind so much. These companies are so screwed from the get-go; they need complete restructuring. And if that dip**** Waggoner wants to play the whole "its good for America" thing; then he needs to do what is best for his company: resign. At that point the companies should take the bailout money to ensure the pensions for any existing workers and those already retired and invest it into a new series of vehicles besides SUVs.
1) Every person on the current board of directors for each company and anyone else related to how the companies were run over the past 10 years resigns.
2) A huge review of all internal processes and efficiencies is performed.
3) The UAW is cut completely out of the picture. If the workers strike, fire them and hire new employees at a 30% reduction in pay. Offer anyone who is fired for striking to be rehired for a 25% reduction in pay.
4) A top-down restructuring of all pay-scales and management positions.
5) GM and Ford required to sell off some of their brands to smaller manufacturers.
If that happens, then I don't mind so much. These companies are so screwed from the get-go; they need complete restructuring. And if that dip**** Waggoner wants to play the whole "its good for America" thing; then he needs to do what is best for his company: resign. At that point the companies should take the bailout money to ensure the pensions for any existing workers and those already retired and invest it into a new series of vehicles besides SUVs.
The problem is that GM wants to have it's cake and eat it too....and would NEVER agree to terms like this.
11-19-08, 04:41 PM
#69
Moderator
I honestly don't mind the big 3 getting bailouts so long as a few things are observed:
1) Every person on the current board of directors for each company and anyone else related to how the companies were run over the past 10 years resigns.
2) A huge review of all internal processes and efficiencies is performed.
3) The UAW is cut completely out of the picture. If the workers strike, fire them and hire new employees at a 30% reduction in pay. Offer anyone who is fired for striking to be rehired for a 25% reduction in pay.
4) A top-down restructuring of all pay-scales and management positions.
5) GM and Ford required to sell off some of their brands to smaller manufacturers. Chrysler can stop with the godawful Dodge RAM ads.
If that happens, then I don't mind so much. These companies are so screwed from the get-go; they need complete restructuring. And if that dip**** Waggoner wants to play the whole "its good for America" thing; then he needs to do what is best for his company: resign. At that point the companies should take the bailout money to ensure the pensions for any existing workers and those already retired and invest the remainder into a new series of vehicles besides SUVs.
1) Every person on the current board of directors for each company and anyone else related to how the companies were run over the past 10 years resigns.
2) A huge review of all internal processes and efficiencies is performed.
3) The UAW is cut completely out of the picture. If the workers strike, fire them and hire new employees at a 30% reduction in pay. Offer anyone who is fired for striking to be rehired for a 25% reduction in pay.
4) A top-down restructuring of all pay-scales and management positions.
5) GM and Ford required to sell off some of their brands to smaller manufacturers. Chrysler can stop with the godawful Dodge RAM ads.
If that happens, then I don't mind so much. These companies are so screwed from the get-go; they need complete restructuring. And if that dip**** Waggoner wants to play the whole "its good for America" thing; then he needs to do what is best for his company: resign. At that point the companies should take the bailout money to ensure the pensions for any existing workers and those already retired and invest the remainder into a new series of vehicles besides SUVs.
11-19-08, 04:55 PM
#70
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I honestly don't mind the big 3 getting bailouts so long as a few things are observed:
1) Every person on the current board of directors for each company and anyone else related to how the companies were run over the past 10 years resigns.
2) A huge review of all internal processes and efficiencies is performed.
3) The UAW is cut completely out of the picture. If the workers strike, fire them and hire new employees at a 30% reduction in pay. Offer anyone who is fired for striking to be rehired for a 25% reduction in pay.
4) A top-down restructuring of all pay-scales and management positions.
5) GM and Ford required to sell off some of their brands to smaller manufacturers. Chrysler can stop with the godawful Dodge RAM ads.
If that happens, then I don't mind so much. These companies are so screwed from the get-go; they need complete restructuring. And if that dip**** Waggoner wants to play the whole "its good for America" thing; then he needs to do what is best for his company: resign. At that point the companies should take the bailout money to ensure the pensions for any existing workers and those already retired and invest the remainder into a new series of vehicles besides SUVs.
1) Every person on the current board of directors for each company and anyone else related to how the companies were run over the past 10 years resigns.
2) A huge review of all internal processes and efficiencies is performed.
3) The UAW is cut completely out of the picture. If the workers strike, fire them and hire new employees at a 30% reduction in pay. Offer anyone who is fired for striking to be rehired for a 25% reduction in pay.
4) A top-down restructuring of all pay-scales and management positions.
5) GM and Ford required to sell off some of their brands to smaller manufacturers. Chrysler can stop with the godawful Dodge RAM ads.
If that happens, then I don't mind so much. These companies are so screwed from the get-go; they need complete restructuring. And if that dip**** Waggoner wants to play the whole "its good for America" thing; then he needs to do what is best for his company: resign. At that point the companies should take the bailout money to ensure the pensions for any existing workers and those already retired and invest the remainder into a new series of vehicles besides SUVs.
However, if you actually craft a plan that puts in place accountability and examine each person's individual performance, then that makes more sense than a blanket statement of fire them all.
All it takes is a little reading into what's been taking place at Capitol Hill and into the know turnaround plans to see the difference in leadership and attitude between Wagoner, Mullaly, and Nardelli.
If the government actually looked at these three corporations and based bailout money on viability of turnaround plan, survivability and likelihood of success, it should be clear where money should go.
11-19-08, 05:05 PM
#71
Lexus Champion
All it takes is a little reading into what's been taking place at Capitol Hill and into the know turnaround plans to see the difference in leadership and attitude between Wagoner, Mullaly, and Nardelli.
If the government actually looked at these three corporations and based bailout money on viability of turnaround plan, survivability and likelihood of success, it should be clear where money should go.
If the government actually looked at these three corporations and based bailout money on viability of turnaround plan, survivability and likelihood of success, it should be clear where money should go.
I don't think that Ford surviving and flourishing at the expense of the other two companies is necessarily a bad thing.
11-19-08, 05:05 PM
#72
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You can't sell off something that is a lot of badge engineering. GM definitely can't support all their divisions so it makes a lot more sense to shut down divsions that can't be supported. But there are massive costs and legal hurdles to deal with. Saab might be one of the only pieces GM could sell off. Hummer is already being shopped around.
In Ford's case, Ford already had the foresight to sell off Aston Martin, Jaguar, and Range Rover and has even begun selling some of it's controlling stake in Mazda to be able to focus on the core Ford brands. Ford only has Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, and Volvo. Volvo is already under review on whether it should be sold or not. Ford needs Lincoln for its luxury division and in the case of Mercury, there are no unique Mercury's only rebadge. But Mercury exists to support the Mercury/Lincoln dealerships and can't just be folded without massive costs and lawsuits from Mercury dealerships.
11-19-08, 05:07 PM
#73
Moderator
You're getting off your own topic, though...the low GM stock price.
I don't see GM stock staying very low, very long, especially if they get the money they want. There are a whole multitude of investors right now just looking for cheap stocks. As soon as they start buying them up, up the price will go again. That's basically why the Dow had had such wild swings up and down for the last couple of months.
I don't see GM stock staying very low, very long, especially if they get the money they want. There are a whole multitude of investors right now just looking for cheap stocks. As soon as they start buying them up, up the price will go again. That's basically why the Dow had had such wild swings up and down for the last couple of months.
Today GM's stock closed at $2.79/share. It got as low as $2.52/share today. Just last year GM's stock was trading in the low $30's. Please see the link below...
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GM
11-19-08, 05:14 PM
#74
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I'm puzzled by this statement. If I'm reading your inference correctly then you are suggesting that Ford should be the company that would be bailed out? But Ford has made it clear that they have enough cash in reserves to get through 2009 and possibly into 2010. So in fact, they don't need the bailout money. By your statement GM and Chrysler would receive very little or no bailout money? Please clarify.
I don't think that Ford surviving and flourishing at the expense of the other two companies is necessarily a bad thing.
I don't think that Ford surviving and flourishing at the expense of the other two companies is necessarily a bad thing.
Ford under Mullaly's leadership has made much progress in trying to turn around Ford. They are most worthy of aid, but as mentioned, Ford really isn't there to seek aid for themselves. Mullaly understands though that GM going under is going to take out or severly weaken the supplier base which absolutely will impact Ford negatively.
11-19-08, 05:42 PM
#75
Lexus Fanatic
