More lol: Acura V8 won't arrive until 2015
12-01-08, 03:01 PM
#46
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^^ As I said, I, myself, have questioned their latest designs. Honda has done this before with the Accord in 1994-1998. I was flabbergasted at that design. Honda came through with the 1999-2003 model which was so much better, I even bought one, A 2002. The 2004-2007 was even better, IMO. This is the faith that I have in Honda. The new Accord is not my style but who knows, maybe the next gen. will do it for me. They've come through for me in the past, so history tells me that they'll do it again.
You base your opinion strictly from an enthusiasts point of few, which is okay, but keep in mind that Honda builds cars mostly for the mainstream.
It would be pretty smug to think that one or two bad designs is enough to completely write-off a car company forever, especially one with such a jeweled past, like Honda.
You base your opinion strictly from an enthusiasts point of few, which is okay, but keep in mind that Honda builds cars mostly for the mainstream.
It would be pretty smug to think that one or two bad designs is enough to completely write-off a car company forever, especially one with such a jeweled past, like Honda.
Honda was once considered an innovative company in the eyes of mainstream buyers. Among mainstream buyers, Honda once had a reputation for class-leading fuel economy. This is no longer the case. Among mainstream buyers right now, Toyota has the best reputation when it comes to fuel economy. In terms of innovation and engineering excellence, Honda no longer enjoys such a great reputation amongst mainstream buyers. Honda still does enjoy a reputation of reliability amongst mainstream people, despite their reliability problems they've had, and more worrying their stubborn attitude towards fixing their reliability problems. Toyota as well has had reliability problems, but they've handled those problems and customers with the problems better than Honda has with their problems. Toyota's hybrids have given Toyota both a fuel economy reputation as well as an innovation and engineering excellence reputation.
Honda also used to have a reputation among enthusiasts as being the Japanese automaker with the highest HP engines. That is also no longer the case.
A lot of people cricitizing Honda right now are FORMER Honda enthusiasts or owners. That includes myself, as years ago I used to be a Honda enthusiast.
Some interesting history about Honda's engine philosophy...
http://world.honda.com/history/chall...e/text/01.html
http://world.honda.com/history/chall...e/text/01.html
Honda's engine philosophy is well-known to most enthusiasts, which is a motorcycle engine philosophy. Lightweight, small (relative to the competition) engines with high redlines, most of the usable power in the higher RPM range, and low torque. ALL of Honda's engines for decades have conformed to this philosophy. This is Honda's engine philosophy simply because Honda does not know how to build engines any other way, and this has caused trouble for Honda is certain market segments and regions in the world where the market requires and demands high-torque engines.
Even so, the philoshophy and mindset Honda had when developing VTEC is no longer around in the company. Honda back then was willing to push boundaries, to be very creative and to give their engineers very ambitious goals as well the freedom to achieve those goals. As any Honda enthusiast should know, Shigeru Uehara left the company because the corporate culture within Honda had changed, and such freedom in engineering as well as innovate thinking is no longer encouraged the same way it was 20 years ago.
New Honda keep getting bigger and heavier, but the problem is Honda's engine philosophy has not changed so new Honda and Acura vehicles desperately lack torque relative to their curb weights. This makes them difficult to drive in bad weather conditions like rain or winter conditions. This also makes them annoying to drive in city traffic conditions. Unless Honda's engine philosophy changes, this situation will only get worse as Honda's vehicles continue to get heavier.
If you look at the competition, many of their vehicles are getting heavier BUT they also are getting engines with low-end torque increases AND getting better, more efficient transmissions.
While Acura is barely a smidge over Honda, we are not talking about Honda here. Honda clearly knows how to run a business. Honda clearly knows how to sell vehicles. This cannot be disputed.
This is about Acura. For years I've called this brand out for being what it is, pseudo luxury. Knock-off luxury. Imitation luxury. Year by year, they prove my point. They make statements like "want to be Tier 1" and "we will make this" and then we get concepts like that giant robot *****.
Acura's tagline is "Advance" but outside of some nifty Nav and SH-AWD, there is nothing "Advanced" about the brand. The Honda Accord is pretty much just as good as a TL/RL losing on a few options. That is a problem, especially since its now BETTER looking. Now to add insult to injury, they have argueably the UGLIEST lineup around.
I have no faith in Acura. None. Lets look around, the competition has NOT stood still. Acura is saying "We will have a V-8 soon" like no one else does. Lexus has what 4 or 5 V-8s? Infiniti has 2. Volvo has one. Ford, Chevy, Pontiac, Hyundai, Kia, Lincoln, who doesn't have a V-8?
Adding a V-8 solves nothing really. Expensive Acuras don't sell. They waited WAAAY to long to make one. Lets say its 2015 and they have a V-8. Well so the hell what.
Everyone else has had a V-8 for decades. Lexus and Infiniti would have one for almost 30 years.
This is about Acura. For years I've called this brand out for being what it is, pseudo luxury. Knock-off luxury. Imitation luxury. Year by year, they prove my point. They make statements like "want to be Tier 1" and "we will make this" and then we get concepts like that giant robot *****.
Acura's tagline is "Advance" but outside of some nifty Nav and SH-AWD, there is nothing "Advanced" about the brand. The Honda Accord is pretty much just as good as a TL/RL losing on a few options. That is a problem, especially since its now BETTER looking. Now to add insult to injury, they have argueably the UGLIEST lineup around.
I have no faith in Acura. None. Lets look around, the competition has NOT stood still. Acura is saying "We will have a V-8 soon" like no one else does. Lexus has what 4 or 5 V-8s? Infiniti has 2. Volvo has one. Ford, Chevy, Pontiac, Hyundai, Kia, Lincoln, who doesn't have a V-8?
Adding a V-8 solves nothing really. Expensive Acuras don't sell. They waited WAAAY to long to make one. Lets say its 2015 and they have a V-8. Well so the hell what.
Everyone else has had a V-8 for decades. Lexus and Infiniti would have one for almost 30 years.
12-01-08, 03:44 PM
#47
Lexus Fanatic
Thank you, I agree. 1sick's relentless pursuit to dog Honda when he can is sometimes funny, but getting old. We all know how he feels about Honda/Acura. I, myself, have questioned Honda's designs as of late and have to wonder where their styling is headed. I have faith in Honda, though, and they will, once again, build visually appealing cars. Maybe Mike should ask himself how it is that Honda, even today, remains one of the most successful car companies in history.
12-01-08, 06:22 PM
#48
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Nobody is "writing off a carmaker forever". Let's not jump to conclusions. What people here, and on other forums are arguing is that Honda HAS lost the plot. They've lost focus, consistency, and continuity. This is not just from an enthusiast's point of view, but from a mainstream consumer's point of view.
Honda was once considered an innovative company in the eyes of mainstream buyers. Among mainstream buyers, Honda once had a reputation for class-leading fuel economy. This is no longer the case. Among mainstream buyers right now, Toyota has the best reputation when it comes to fuel economy. In terms of innovation and engineering excellence, Honda no longer enjoys such a great reputation amongst mainstream buyers. Honda still does enjoy a reputation of reliability amongst mainstream people, despite their reliability problems they've had, and more worrying their stubborn attitude towards fixing their reliability problems. Toyota as well has had reliability problems, but they've handled those problems and customers with the problems better than Honda has with their problems. Toyota's hybrids have given Toyota both a fuel economy reputation as well as an innovation and engineering excellence reputation.
Honda also used to have a reputation among enthusiasts as being the Japanese automaker with the highest HP engines. That is also no longer the case.
A lot of people cricitizing Honda right now are FORMER Honda enthusiasts or owners. That includes myself, as years ago I used to be a Honda enthusiast.
Honda was once considered an innovative company in the eyes of mainstream buyers. Among mainstream buyers, Honda once had a reputation for class-leading fuel economy. This is no longer the case. Among mainstream buyers right now, Toyota has the best reputation when it comes to fuel economy. In terms of innovation and engineering excellence, Honda no longer enjoys such a great reputation amongst mainstream buyers. Honda still does enjoy a reputation of reliability amongst mainstream people, despite their reliability problems they've had, and more worrying their stubborn attitude towards fixing their reliability problems. Toyota as well has had reliability problems, but they've handled those problems and customers with the problems better than Honda has with their problems. Toyota's hybrids have given Toyota both a fuel economy reputation as well as an innovation and engineering excellence reputation.
Honda also used to have a reputation among enthusiasts as being the Japanese automaker with the highest HP engines. That is also no longer the case.
A lot of people cricitizing Honda right now are FORMER Honda enthusiasts or owners. That includes myself, as years ago I used to be a Honda enthusiast.
12-01-08, 06:54 PM
#49
I own two Hondas as well. I'd like you to back up the claim about "their stubborn attitude towards fixing their reliability problems". Honda has been more than fair on replacing transmissions on out of warranty cars that have seen failure. They extended the warranty on their cars to 100K, admitted to fault and have fixed the issues completely. I don't agree with everything Honda is doing lately (or what they haven't done), but Toyota has had a lot more quality problems as of late compared to Honda. That includes transmissions, recalls, axels, etc. Both automakers are going down the cheap-route as well. Take the trashy low-bin interior of the Corolla, Matrix and Tundra - It's worse than anything Honda has put out. Once again VW sets the standard for build quality, a quality the Japanese long held. I'd like them to return to this philosophy, but Toyota in particular seems keen on mass market, cheap assembly vehicle appliances as of late. I'm not talking about every car they make, but the ones I listed above certainly fall into this category. While the interior of the new Golf 6 competes with the Phaeton for overall finish and quality, the Corolla seems to be benchmarking the domestics (Honda falls into this as well).
now if you ask me is that good? hell no. tranny is freaking safety issue, and that's exactly why i sold my tl-s so soon after ownership. i know people with 4 trannies on their tl, and no need to look far, my officemate has the tranny replaced in his odyssey.
i do have to say their new trannies are much better, at least i don't hear complaints anymore. but i can also tell you their poor runs from 00-03 on most of their v6 cars put that much sour taste on owners. most of the people i know who owned honda during those period said they will not return to honda for time to come. that's mainly not coz' honda had a bad tranny, but the fact that honda didn't do close to enough to address the issue
sorry went OT a bit, but i think this needs to be cleared. and again back to v8, i am really about "see it to believe it" with honda at this point.
12-01-08, 07:22 PM
#50
Lexus Fanatic
I agree with you about the Tundra's low-rent materials......it's awful.
Once again VW sets the standard for build quality, a quality the Japanese long held.
12-01-08, 08:05 PM
#51
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12-01-08, 08:15 PM
#52
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I own two Hondas as well. I'd like you to back up the claim about "their stubborn attitude towards fixing their reliability problems". Honda has been more than fair on replacing transmissions on out of warranty cars that have seen failure. They extended the warranty on their cars to 100K, admitted to fault and have fixed the issues completely. I don't agree with everything Honda is doing lately (or what they haven't done), but Toyota has had a lot more quality problems as of late compared to Honda. That includes transmissions, recalls, axels, etc. Both automakers are going down the cheap-route as well. Take the trashy low-bin interior of the Corolla, Matrix and Tundra - It's worse than anything Honda has put out. Once again VW sets the standard for build quality, a quality the Japanese long held. I'd like them to return to this philosophy, but Toyota in particular seems keen on mass market, cheap assembly vehicle appliances as of late. I'm not talking about every car they make, but the ones I listed above certainly fall into this category. While the interior of the new Golf 6 competes with the Phaeton for overall finish and quality, the Corolla seems to be benchmarking the domestics (Honda falls into this as well).
I won't get into a discussion about quality or interiors of Honda vs Toyota as that would be going a bit too off-topic. I will say that interior quality issues is not as serious as transmission problems. Recalls are not indicative of how many problems an automaker has; recalls simply show how well an automaker is dealing with and responding to issues, which may not be serious at all. There is the example of that floor mat recall Toyota did.
Also, Toyota's transmission issues relating to their 6-speed auto are nowhere near as serious as Honda's transmission problems and issues over the last 8-10 years. Honda has had problems with *both* manual and automatic transmissions in a variety of models over the past several years. Honda has not fully addressed or fixed all of these problems; it has only partially done so.
12-02-08, 05:34 AM
#53
Pole Position
12-02-08, 07:15 AM
#54
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Heck no, nobody's criticizing him. I, like you, respect his automotive insight and look forward to reading all of his comments. However, the Honda/Acura rants take away some of the respect that he's gained on these boards. Your own commentary on these forums are very mature and, for the most part, unbiased. I always look forward to reading your reviews and comments because I know they come from a nonjudgmental point of view. It's different with Mike. I like him and his posts but I would just love to see him write an unbiased review on a Honda.
(I'll search and link these later).
I suggest read ALL my posts on the brand(s), not just the ones that don't show them in a positive light or I rip them so bad Jeremy Clarkson cringes.
If you haven't noticed, I've ripped every brand, including Toyota/Lexus (check the when Toyota had ***** thread I started) when appropriate.
Want me to be quiet? Tell Acura stop with these utterly useless chats/leaks with the press and walk the walk, stop talking it. Every month we hear something ridiculous.
12-02-08, 08:39 AM
#55
Lexus Champion
Many people (including myself) would think it's a shame for Honda to stick with I-4's and V6's, but what Honda has been trying achieve is to maintain efficient and high output power by using smaller engines with VEEEEETEKKKKKKKKKK system. This is Honda passion. I knew this.... I used to like it....... not sure about now.
And their hybrids are a joke, sure the Prius is uglier than an Ugg boot but the Prius has more TORQUE than the Civic Hybrid, a better hybrid system rather than the parallel assist-only IMA, and the Prius feels well-composed(suspension aside) at highway speeds than the Civic Hybrid.
Honda still makes a good car, but sadly their message of making a practical car and their no-nonsense marketing is gone.
12-02-08, 10:27 AM
#56
Acura is in trouble, no doubt.
In November '08 Acura sold 3,160 TLs compares to 4,064 in November '07. I know the economy is a huge factor but let's not forget that the TL has just gotten the re-design, a drop of 25% with a brand new model is not good under any economy.
If I am Acura I would do something quick about it.
In November '08 Acura sold 3,160 TLs compares to 4,064 in November '07. I know the economy is a huge factor but let's not forget that the TL has just gotten the re-design, a drop of 25% with a brand new model is not good under any economy.
If I am Acura I would do something quick about it.
12-02-08, 11:09 AM
#57
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Acura is in trouble, no doubt.
In November '08 Acura sold 3,160 TLs compares to 4,064 in November '07. I know the economy is a huge factor but let's not forget that the TL has just gotten the re-design, a drop of 25% with a brand new model is not good under any economy.
If I am Acura I would do something quick about it.
In November '08 Acura sold 3,160 TLs compares to 4,064 in November '07. I know the economy is a huge factor but let's not forget that the TL has just gotten the re-design, a drop of 25% with a brand new model is not good under any economy.
If I am Acura I would do something quick about it.
Acura and dealers are still internally fighting over painting the grill. Dealers are not listening to Acura stating they cannot sell cars with that grill. Acura insists the grills be sold untouched, they are the new Acura face. What a mess.
12-02-08, 11:22 AM
#58
1. The new corporate grille is horrible beyond belief, and
2. The car itself is really nothing special compares to the competitors because if it is, the grille alone wouldn't stop people buying it. Seriously, I would suck it up and get the car if it comes with 350hp, SH-AWD, $35k and handles better than the 335i...
The painted-grille TL is showing up all over the places. I just saw a black one in my local Acura dealership (Power Acura in Torrance, CA, which is right down the road from the NA Acura headquarter...) and it is sitting on the best spot on the lot. There is not a thing Corporate Acura can do about it, the dealers need to sell cars and they'll do anything to accomplish it.
