So people will buy a 70k+ Nissan but not a VW?
12-05-08 | 07:24 AM
#16
Lexus Champion
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,645
Likes: 1
From: Richmond
Nissan knows how and always did make sports cars, thus the GTR was so successful because people know the GTR is good BECAUSE it's a Nissan.
VW wasn't known to much people about luxury, basically the last thing that comes to mind when you think about Luxury and Refinement is VW. They did create a heck of a car, I loved it also, but people didn't take notice because there aren't any hype, and it looks, prices just like any run of the mill barges with nothing really special. can you recall any special features on the Pheaton? I can't
VW wasn't known to much people about luxury, basically the last thing that comes to mind when you think about Luxury and Refinement is VW. They did create a heck of a car, I loved it also, but people didn't take notice because there aren't any hype, and it looks, prices just like any run of the mill barges with nothing really special. can you recall any special features on the Pheaton? I can't
12-05-08 | 11:26 AM
#19
Super Moderator
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 30,120
Likes: 231
From: Canada
I have seen only one GT-R on the road (a black one) so far in the months since it was launched, but have never even seen a single Phaeton on the road even years after it was launched, the only Phaeton I've seen in person is in the Autoshow years ago
12-05-08 | 11:45 AM
#20
VW could sell a $70k in droves if said car had a history. Phaeton? What is a Phaeton? The GTR moniker is well known to the Nissan/Datsun faithful, and those folks will borrow/steal money from their mothers to purchase those vehicles. Now if VW were to revive the Karmann Ghia below, folks would buy the modern day interpretation for $70k..
12-05-08 | 11:59 AM
#22
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,485
Likes: 0
From: Park Ridge IL
Nissan knows how and always did make sports cars, thus the GTR was so successful because people know the GTR is good BECAUSE it's a Nissan.
VW wasn't known to much people about luxury, basically the last thing that comes to mind when you think about Luxury and Refinement is VW. They did create a heck of a car, I loved it also, but people didn't take notice because there aren't any hype, and it looks, prices just like any run of the mill barges with nothing really special. can you recall any special features on the Pheaton? I can't
VW wasn't known to much people about luxury, basically the last thing that comes to mind when you think about Luxury and Refinement is VW. They did create a heck of a car, I loved it also, but people didn't take notice because there aren't any hype, and it looks, prices just like any run of the mill barges with nothing really special. can you recall any special features on the Pheaton? I can't
12-05-08 | 04:02 PM
#26
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
From: CA
yes most people have said what I wanted to say, so it would be redundant for me to repeat the same things 
I will just say, the GTR performs as well or better than many $150k+ cars, while the Phaeton can not provide the comfort, luxury, and prestige of the $150k+ sedans.
I will just say, the GTR performs as well or better than many $150k+ cars, while the Phaeton can not provide the comfort, luxury, and prestige of the $150k+ sedans.
Phaeton, on the other hand, is just another luxury sedan that is not faster, quieter, bigger, better looking, or significantly cheaper than its main competitors from Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Lexus. Lacking of apparent engineering and aesthetic advantages over its competitors, in addition to the fact that Volkswagen has no luxurious or prestigious image and history, was the main reason this car failed in the United States, imo.
*It's built by hand at a state of the "Gläserne Manufaktur" plant
*W12 engine
*4-Zone Climatic Air Conditioner which is draft free (rotating wood vent covers "radiate" the temperature)
*Dehumidifyer so the windows can never fog
*sunroof spoiler that automatically adjusts to reduce buffeting
*Windshield wipers that routinely adjsut every few days to prevent cracking
*18-way heated/cooled front seats
*You could drive at 155mph all day when it’s 122F outside and the air-conditioning would maintain a constant temperature of 71.6F - engineering requirement
*just the overall attention to detail is in the $150K class of cars, bar none. Just look at the trunk hinges, chrome plated and polished which look like they came from a Bentley or RR.
Again, VW fully owns Bentley and Buggati. They know a thing or two about world class top-tier luxury sedans.
Interesting enough, the Chancellor of Germany, the Prime Minster of Portugal, and North Korean Leader Kim Jong-Il are all chaffeured in a Phaeton.
Last edited by FKL; 12-05-08 at 04:10 PM.
12-05-08 | 04:03 PM
#27
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,719
Likes: 90
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
It's obvious why the Phaeton didn't sell, although it's not VW's fault.
IMAGE
Once again, we get back to that same old automotive bugaboo that controls the minds of so many people (and so many sales) People get a mindset in their heads that even a nuclear explosion, sometimes, can't change.
Buicks and traditional Cadillacs are for old people.
Minivans are for wimps and soccer-moms.
Sports cars are for young males.
Beetles, VW convertibles, and Miatas are for "chicks" and gay men.
Hyundais/Kias are junk and constantly break down.
Mustang GTs are for crazy teen-agers.
Saabs are for Lesbians.
Subarus are for tree-lovers and NPR-listeners.
Volvos are for librarians and schoolteachers.
Pickup trucks are for cowboys, ranchers, and construction people.
Rolls Royce/Bentley is for rich Britons and people in Hollywood.
Escalades and Navigators are for pro athletes, rappers, and drug dealers.
AND..........
VW can't possibly be in the super-luxury car buisness.
The problem is that people actually believe that nonsense.....and, too often, shop accordingly.
VW offered the public a heck of a deal on a super-luxury car that was a bargain and a half (especially the W12 version) compared to its V12 BMW and Merdedes competitors. The Phaeton undercut them, in pricing, by about 30-40K on average.....even 50K for some models. Yet the Phaeton offered virtually everything the Mercedes S-class V-12 did, for a lot less money, although its suspension was somewhat comfort-oriented and it couldn't handle quite as well as the BMW 760i. The public just did not give the Phaeton a chance....whose fault is that? You can lead a horse to water, but..............
IMAGE
Once again, we get back to that same old automotive bugaboo that controls the minds of so many people (and so many sales) People get a mindset in their heads that even a nuclear explosion, sometimes, can't change.
Buicks and traditional Cadillacs are for old people.
Minivans are for wimps and soccer-moms.
Sports cars are for young males.
Beetles, VW convertibles, and Miatas are for "chicks" and gay men.
Hyundais/Kias are junk and constantly break down.
Mustang GTs are for crazy teen-agers.
Saabs are for Lesbians.
Subarus are for tree-lovers and NPR-listeners.
Volvos are for librarians and schoolteachers.
Pickup trucks are for cowboys, ranchers, and construction people.
Rolls Royce/Bentley is for rich Britons and people in Hollywood.
Escalades and Navigators are for pro athletes, rappers, and drug dealers.
AND..........
VW can't possibly be in the super-luxury car buisness.
The problem is that people actually believe that nonsense.....and, too often, shop accordingly.
VW offered the public a heck of a deal on a super-luxury car that was a bargain and a half (especially the W12 version) compared to its V12 BMW and Merdedes competitors. The Phaeton undercut them, in pricing, by about 30-40K on average.....even 50K for some models. Yet the Phaeton offered virtually everything the Mercedes S-class V-12 did, for a lot less money, although its suspension was somewhat comfort-oriented and it couldn't handle quite as well as the BMW 760i. The public just did not give the Phaeton a chance....whose fault is that? You can lead a horse to water, but..............
12-05-08 | 08:31 PM
#29
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 22,608
Likes: 102
From: Waiting for next track day
the GTR destroyed all and put the sports car market on its ***. Like the NSX this car will force the entire industry to reevaluate what is a sports car. The Pheaton was just another super luxury car that equaled the likes of mercedes and BMW. Nothing exciting, just a new kid on the block. The GTR is the bully that smacked the other kids down
12-06-08 | 12:43 AM
#30
Former Sponsor
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,002
Likes: 1
From: D2'sville
It's obvious why the Phaeton didn't sell, although it's not VW's fault.
IMAGE
Once again, we get back to that same old automotive bugaboo that controls the minds of so many people (and so many sales) People get a mindset in their heads that even a nuclear explosion, sometimes, can't change.
AND..........
VW can't possibly be in the super-luxury car buisness.
The problem is that people actually believe that nonsense.....and, too often, shop accordingly.
Yet the Phaeton offered virtually everything the Mercedes S-class V-12 did, for a lot less money, although its suspension was somewhat comfort-oriented and it couldn't handle quite as well as the BMW 760i. The public just did not give the Phaeton a chance....whose fault is that? You can lead a horse to water, but..............
IMAGE
Once again, we get back to that same old automotive bugaboo that controls the minds of so many people (and so many sales) People get a mindset in their heads that even a nuclear explosion, sometimes, can't change.
AND..........
VW can't possibly be in the super-luxury car buisness.
The problem is that people actually believe that nonsense.....and, too often, shop accordingly.
Yet the Phaeton offered virtually everything the Mercedes S-class V-12 did, for a lot less money, although its suspension was somewhat comfort-oriented and it couldn't handle quite as well as the BMW 760i. The public just did not give the Phaeton a chance....whose fault is that? You can lead a horse to water, but..............
We faced the SAME opposition when we started doing shows back in 2004. The German lux car owners used to look at us "Lexus Guys" like orphan Annie's or something.
It was always like "yeah those wheels are cool for a Lexus, but this is a _ _ _ _ _ (insert German lux car brand)". The funniest thing is, it was always the dude with the lowest rung model (like c230 with no s/c, or 323ci beamer) that was the most condescending.
Now if thats the problem we had with a established Luxury brand like Lexus, imagine trying ot break into that same circle with a VW!!
Its sort of like Mcdonalds offering a 35 dollar Kobe Beef Big Mac. Sure the quality, and value is there, but its tough to wrap your mind around a 35 dollar Big Mac!! lol