So people will buy a 70k+ Nissan but not a VW?
12-04-08, 08:56 PM
#1
Guest
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So people will buy a 70k+ Nissan but not a VW?
bitkahuna just PMd me about him seeing a beautiful Phaeton in FL. While I knew badging it a VW would mean epic fail, I also know it was a SUPERB vehicle and I am a big fan of it.
Then I started thinking how the Nissan GT-R and VW Phaeton are very similar, though aimed at different markets.
1. Both are very expensive for the badge
2. Both were very serious entries into their classes and more than hold their own.
3. Both used new technologies and the best technologies from their respective companies.
4. Both are "halo" cars
5. Both are sold in limited amounts, with limited dealer/mechanic support.
While the GT-R is built alongside the Nissan SKyline and Infiniti G37, I believe the Phaeton got its own brand new factory where you could eat off the floor! (the GT-R has similar rooms for it).
The only thing I can see Nissan has an advantage is on believe it or not "heritage". The GT-R we have today builds on the past legendary, sucessful models. Clearly there are enough people that know about the cars capability outside the PS3 kids to buy it.
VW didn't have that advantage with the Phaeton. VW continues to be known for economy cars here and hatches basically.
So lets discuss how these two similar vehicles, could have such different fates here.
Then I started thinking how the Nissan GT-R and VW Phaeton are very similar, though aimed at different markets.
1. Both are very expensive for the badge
2. Both were very serious entries into their classes and more than hold their own.
3. Both used new technologies and the best technologies from their respective companies.
4. Both are "halo" cars
5. Both are sold in limited amounts, with limited dealer/mechanic support.
While the GT-R is built alongside the Nissan SKyline and Infiniti G37, I believe the Phaeton got its own brand new factory where you could eat off the floor! (the GT-R has similar rooms for it).
The only thing I can see Nissan has an advantage is on believe it or not "heritage". The GT-R we have today builds on the past legendary, sucessful models. Clearly there are enough people that know about the cars capability outside the PS3 kids to buy it.
VW didn't have that advantage with the Phaeton. VW continues to be known for economy cars here and hatches basically.
So lets discuss how these two similar vehicles, could have such different fates here.
12-04-08, 09:16 PM
#4
Lexus Test Driver
The thing is the GT-R has had a large following and the forbidden fruit for most jap car enthusiasts. The Phaeton tries to compete w/ LUXURY makes. Most ppl in that category are usually self-concious of wat other ppl think so they get a benz just to say tey have one. Sports cars adrivers are different though
12-04-08, 09:31 PM
#5
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The "Phaeton" shared the same basic platform as the Bentley Continental and GT. Fabulous vehicle with unparalleled levels of refinement and build quality. Each one is hand-build in a plant in Dresden, Germany. Here's a tour if you are interested...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1837641
Here's some of the pictures (many more in the tour):
Lifting the Phaeton
At some stages of the build process, it is easier to do the work if the car can be lifted up and moved around as needed. The overhead cranes lift the car up, using the same 4 points that the car normally rests on, and the employee can then move the vehicle around as he or she wants. The working environment in this assembly plant has been very carefully thought out - there is no comparison with other car manufacturing facilities.
And into the storage tower
Phaetons that are built for customers who plan to pick their car up at the factory are placed into the glass storage tower after they have been built, and the complete pre-delivery inspection process is completed. Phaetons that will be shipped overseas go to a different area, to be wrapped in protective packaging. The little courtyard area in the left foreground is part of the public area of the factory. Directly behind it, you can see the assembly areas.
The Phaeton (and Veyron/Passat W8) was the brain child of VW Exec and Chairman of the Supervisory Board Ferdinand Karl Piëch. He was the mastermined of the VW renaissance in N. America in the late 90s, requiring unparalled levels of material and build quality accross every vehicle (in addition to green-lighting the risky New Beetle). Even today, VW cars of the early 2000s have build quality rarely seen on many new vehicles.
Long story short, VW underestimated their brand image in North America and the Phaeton suffered as a result. It's poor sales were not attributed to any lack of the car itself. They are still trying to position themselves as more upmarket than their Japanese competition, offering up a blend of tuetonic dynamics and innovations. They have also admitted that pulling the Phaeton so early may have been a mistake, and are planning to re-introduce the car.
As far as comparing the Phaeton to the GT-R, they are very different and appeal to very different demographics. The GT-R is an iconic car with a proud history while the Phaeton was an all new ambitious project from Volkswagen.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1837641
Here's some of the pictures (many more in the tour):
Lifting the Phaeton
At some stages of the build process, it is easier to do the work if the car can be lifted up and moved around as needed. The overhead cranes lift the car up, using the same 4 points that the car normally rests on, and the employee can then move the vehicle around as he or she wants. The working environment in this assembly plant has been very carefully thought out - there is no comparison with other car manufacturing facilities.
And into the storage tower
Phaetons that are built for customers who plan to pick their car up at the factory are placed into the glass storage tower after they have been built, and the complete pre-delivery inspection process is completed. Phaetons that will be shipped overseas go to a different area, to be wrapped in protective packaging. The little courtyard area in the left foreground is part of the public area of the factory. Directly behind it, you can see the assembly areas.
The Phaeton (and Veyron/Passat W8) was the brain child of VW Exec and Chairman of the Supervisory Board Ferdinand Karl Piëch. He was the mastermined of the VW renaissance in N. America in the late 90s, requiring unparalled levels of material and build quality accross every vehicle (in addition to green-lighting the risky New Beetle). Even today, VW cars of the early 2000s have build quality rarely seen on many new vehicles.
Long story short, VW underestimated their brand image in North America and the Phaeton suffered as a result. It's poor sales were not attributed to any lack of the car itself. They are still trying to position themselves as more upmarket than their Japanese competition, offering up a blend of tuetonic dynamics and innovations. They have also admitted that pulling the Phaeton so early may have been a mistake, and are planning to re-introduce the car.
As far as comparing the Phaeton to the GT-R, they are very different and appeal to very different demographics. The GT-R is an iconic car with a proud history while the Phaeton was an all new ambitious project from Volkswagen.
Last edited by FKL; 12-04-08 at 09:36 PM.
12-04-08, 10:05 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by Forbes (2005)
A car that virtually nobody wants turns out to be a delightful surprise.
Relatively speaking, nobody wants to buy the Volkswagen Phaeton sedan.
In February, only 69 Americans purchased the flagship Volkswagen , compared with 152 last February. These sales are terrible for the product of a high-volume, mainstream carmaker. They seemed that way at this time last year, and now they have declined by 55%. Dealers are routinely offering Phaetons for $10,000 under the sticker price.
How could Volkswagen have made such a mistake? Some say nobody wants a fancy Volkswagen, but the company's luxurious Touareg sport utility vehicle has been a success. The other popular theory is, "Why buy a $70,000 Volkswagen when you can buy a car from the company's upscale Audi subsidiary?"
Thing is, we recently drove the Phaeton and found it to be better than any Audi, with the possible exception of the flagship A8 sedan. In fact, we went straight from a Phaeton into a new Audi A6 sedan, and found the latter to have an interior that is far less sumptuous and intuitively laid out, and driving dynamics that feel almost clumsy in comparison.
The problem is not the quality of the Phaeton -- it's the quality of the VW badge. And it's the mediocre reputation Volkswagen dealers have, especially when compared with the better reputation of Audi dealers, who are located right across the showroom floors. But perhaps more than any other factor, the Phaeton's sticker price is driving people away.
VW is known for cheap, populist cars, and always has been. Put it this way: if General Motors decided to build a $70,000 Saturn, would you buy it? Neither would we.
This is a shame, though, because the Phaeton is a great car. Read on to find out why.
The two best things about the Phaeton are its driving dynamics and interior design.
A 12-cylinder engine is available, but we were perfectly satisfied with the optional 4.2-liter V-8, which produces 335 horsepower. Coupled with a six-speed automatic transmission, this translates to fast, smooth driving.
The "fast" part comes in the form of plenty of power -- all you could want in virtually any situation. The throttle is responsive and extremely precise, and when applied aggressively, it makes the Phaeton a furious machine. The gear changes are fast and smooth, and with all-wheel drive the car has an almost Bentley-like, freight-train feel.
However, all of this power delivery comes in the smoothest manner, and the cockpit stays as quiet as that of a Lexus from Toyota Motor -- at least until you really start hammering the gas and reach the power peak at 6,500 rpm. Go from the Phaeton into virtually any other car and you'll find that you're not as smooth as you thought you were -- the Phaeton just made you feel that way.
In terms of the look and feel of that cockpit, it outshines that of pretty much any Lexus -- and pretty much any other luxury car. The amount and quality of the Phaeton's wood trim is astonishing. Comparing it with the wood in, say, a Buick is like comparing oak paneling with a popsicle stick.
The Phaeton's controls and instruments look ultra-modern, and the rear seat is about as luxurious as it gets, with its own climate control system and extremely comfortable seats.
The toughest question, then, is whether you should boldly go where virtually no one has gone before: into a Phaeton ownership. Read on.
The answer is a qualified "yes," and the qualifications have nothing to do with the car.
The Phaeton is inherently terrific, and it's a real shame that it's not selling. Years from now, we expect the car will be viewed as having been well ahead of its time -- and the possessor of a near-perfect interior. We enthusiastically recommend this car.
The problem is, no one else seems to be making the same recommendation -- at least not according to the Phaeton's sales figures. One concern that potential buyers may have -- and one that we understand -- is this: Why buy a $70,000 sedan from the guys who are dealing Golfs to college kids?
This is either something you get over, or you don't. You can either deal with a little ribbing for how much you spent on your VW -- all the while knowing you made a smart purchase -- or you can't.
Basically, the Phaeton is for iconoclasts, not bargain-hunters (if such people actually exist in the luxury car market, they will buy Japanese luxury sedans instead). Nor is it for people who want to blend in. Get a Mercedes-Benz S-Class from DaimlerChrysler if that's how you feel.
Audi's new slogan is "Never follow." For those who truly think this way, parent company Volkswagen has something that will separate you from the pack in a way that an Audi never could. Can you live with it? We certainly could.
Relatively speaking, nobody wants to buy the Volkswagen Phaeton sedan.
In February, only 69 Americans purchased the flagship Volkswagen , compared with 152 last February. These sales are terrible for the product of a high-volume, mainstream carmaker. They seemed that way at this time last year, and now they have declined by 55%. Dealers are routinely offering Phaetons for $10,000 under the sticker price.
How could Volkswagen have made such a mistake? Some say nobody wants a fancy Volkswagen, but the company's luxurious Touareg sport utility vehicle has been a success. The other popular theory is, "Why buy a $70,000 Volkswagen when you can buy a car from the company's upscale Audi subsidiary?"
Thing is, we recently drove the Phaeton and found it to be better than any Audi, with the possible exception of the flagship A8 sedan. In fact, we went straight from a Phaeton into a new Audi A6 sedan, and found the latter to have an interior that is far less sumptuous and intuitively laid out, and driving dynamics that feel almost clumsy in comparison.
The problem is not the quality of the Phaeton -- it's the quality of the VW badge. And it's the mediocre reputation Volkswagen dealers have, especially when compared with the better reputation of Audi dealers, who are located right across the showroom floors. But perhaps more than any other factor, the Phaeton's sticker price is driving people away.
VW is known for cheap, populist cars, and always has been. Put it this way: if General Motors decided to build a $70,000 Saturn, would you buy it? Neither would we.
This is a shame, though, because the Phaeton is a great car. Read on to find out why.
The two best things about the Phaeton are its driving dynamics and interior design.
A 12-cylinder engine is available, but we were perfectly satisfied with the optional 4.2-liter V-8, which produces 335 horsepower. Coupled with a six-speed automatic transmission, this translates to fast, smooth driving.
The "fast" part comes in the form of plenty of power -- all you could want in virtually any situation. The throttle is responsive and extremely precise, and when applied aggressively, it makes the Phaeton a furious machine. The gear changes are fast and smooth, and with all-wheel drive the car has an almost Bentley-like, freight-train feel.
However, all of this power delivery comes in the smoothest manner, and the cockpit stays as quiet as that of a Lexus from Toyota Motor -- at least until you really start hammering the gas and reach the power peak at 6,500 rpm. Go from the Phaeton into virtually any other car and you'll find that you're not as smooth as you thought you were -- the Phaeton just made you feel that way.
In terms of the look and feel of that cockpit, it outshines that of pretty much any Lexus -- and pretty much any other luxury car. The amount and quality of the Phaeton's wood trim is astonishing. Comparing it with the wood in, say, a Buick is like comparing oak paneling with a popsicle stick.
The Phaeton's controls and instruments look ultra-modern, and the rear seat is about as luxurious as it gets, with its own climate control system and extremely comfortable seats.
The toughest question, then, is whether you should boldly go where virtually no one has gone before: into a Phaeton ownership. Read on.
The answer is a qualified "yes," and the qualifications have nothing to do with the car.
The Phaeton is inherently terrific, and it's a real shame that it's not selling. Years from now, we expect the car will be viewed as having been well ahead of its time -- and the possessor of a near-perfect interior. We enthusiastically recommend this car.
The problem is, no one else seems to be making the same recommendation -- at least not according to the Phaeton's sales figures. One concern that potential buyers may have -- and one that we understand -- is this: Why buy a $70,000 sedan from the guys who are dealing Golfs to college kids?
This is either something you get over, or you don't. You can either deal with a little ribbing for how much you spent on your VW -- all the while knowing you made a smart purchase -- or you can't.
Basically, the Phaeton is for iconoclasts, not bargain-hunters (if such people actually exist in the luxury car market, they will buy Japanese luxury sedans instead). Nor is it for people who want to blend in. Get a Mercedes-Benz S-Class from DaimlerChrysler if that's how you feel.
Audi's new slogan is "Never follow." For those who truly think this way, parent company Volkswagen has something that will separate you from the pack in a way that an Audi never could. Can you live with it? We certainly could.
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12-04-08, 10:19 PM
#9
Lexus Champion
bitkahuna just PMd me about him seeing a beautiful Phaeton in FL. While I knew badging it a VW would mean epic fail, I also know it was a SUPERB vehicle and I am a big fan of it.
Then I started thinking how the Nissan GT-R and VW Phaeton are very similar, though aimed at different markets.
1. Both are very expensive for the badge
2. Both were very serious entries into their classes and more than hold their own.
3. Both used new technologies and the best technologies from their respective companies.
4. Both are "halo" cars
5. Both are sold in limited amounts, with limited dealer/mechanic support.
While the GT-R is built alongside the Nissan SKyline and Infiniti G37, I believe the Phaeton got its own brand new factory where you could eat off the floor! (the GT-R has similar rooms for it).
The only thing I can see Nissan has an advantage is on believe it or not "heritage". The GT-R we have today builds on the past legendary, sucessful models. Clearly there are enough people that know about the cars capability outside the PS3 kids to buy it.
VW didn't have that advantage with the Phaeton. VW continues to be known for economy cars here and hatches basically.
So lets discuss how these two similar vehicles, could have such different fates here.
Then I started thinking how the Nissan GT-R and VW Phaeton are very similar, though aimed at different markets.
1. Both are very expensive for the badge
2. Both were very serious entries into their classes and more than hold their own.
3. Both used new technologies and the best technologies from their respective companies.
4. Both are "halo" cars
5. Both are sold in limited amounts, with limited dealer/mechanic support.
While the GT-R is built alongside the Nissan SKyline and Infiniti G37, I believe the Phaeton got its own brand new factory where you could eat off the floor! (the GT-R has similar rooms for it).
The only thing I can see Nissan has an advantage is on believe it or not "heritage". The GT-R we have today builds on the past legendary, sucessful models. Clearly there are enough people that know about the cars capability outside the PS3 kids to buy it.
VW didn't have that advantage with the Phaeton. VW continues to be known for economy cars here and hatches basically.
So lets discuss how these two similar vehicles, could have such different fates here.
The difference is the two respective markets each car is catering to - luxury vs. performance car buyers. Branding is important to a luxury car buyer, as the brand's status and perceived cache for the owner of the car is a large consideration to purchase. VW just doesn't have that status. It doesn't help that the whole dealership and service experience isn't up to par for a luxury brand either, so building that status is impossible.
The GT-R, however, is just fast as hell and a performance bargain. People will buy the car DESPITE the Nissan nameplate.
12-04-08, 10:33 PM
#10
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Heritage has nothing to do with the GT-R's success here in the states.
The difference is the two respective markets each car is catering to - luxury vs. performance car buyers. Branding is important to a luxury car buyer, as the brand's status and perceived cache for the owner of the car is a large consideration to purchase. VW just doesn't have that status. It doesn't help that the whole dealership and service experience isn't up to par for a luxury brand either, so building that status is impossible.
The GT-R, however, is just fast as hell and a performance bargain. People will buy the car DESPITE the Nissan nameplate.
The difference is the two respective markets each car is catering to - luxury vs. performance car buyers. Branding is important to a luxury car buyer, as the brand's status and perceived cache for the owner of the car is a large consideration to purchase. VW just doesn't have that status. It doesn't help that the whole dealership and service experience isn't up to par for a luxury brand either, so building that status is impossible.
The GT-R, however, is just fast as hell and a performance bargain. People will buy the car DESPITE the Nissan nameplate.
In contrast, it seems with a luxury car, especially a flagship, IMAGE counts in spades.
12-04-08, 10:41 PM
#11
Lexus Test Driver
The GT-R is a performance bargain and a legend but nobody gives a crap about a expensive luxo barge from VW. People think a luxury sedan with a VW badge probably shouldn't cost more than an Acura TL. That's why it doesn't sell.
12-04-08, 10:57 PM
#12
This probably is a car I will own one day when I'm a little more older and more affordable.
Anywho, regarding the Phaeton, Not only for the bang for the buck factor but the engineering and attention to detail that went into it is what attracts me. It also looks beautiful IMO. It's not a OMG LOOK AT ME, but more subtle...I dunno, there's something about it I always loved about it since it came out. and finally, it's just too friggin cool!!!
I also think the B5 Passat and B5.5 W8 4motion Passats are amazing vehicles also.
------------------
PS: went on cars.com and holy crap, I found a few Phaetons for under 20k!!!
Anywho, regarding the Phaeton, Not only for the bang for the buck factor but the engineering and attention to detail that went into it is what attracts me. It also looks beautiful IMO. It's not a OMG LOOK AT ME, but more subtle...I dunno, there's something about it I always loved about it since it came out. and finally, it's just too friggin cool!!!
I also think the B5 Passat and B5.5 W8 4motion Passats are amazing vehicles also.
------------------
PS: went on cars.com and holy crap, I found a few Phaetons for under 20k!!!
Last edited by kit cat; 12-04-08 at 11:00 PM.
12-04-08, 11:07 PM
#13
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Unless VW's dealer network starts acting its part, few will want a $70,000 car from them. VW's well-built and expensive-feeling cars already have a reputation for being just a notch premium over the average cars, but dealer quality and painful reliability problems remain its Achilles' heel to this day.
12-05-08, 12:21 AM
#14
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GT-R has a selling point, which is speed. Nissan has advertised this car as one able to compete with cars from Porsche and Lamborghini and Ferrari from the beginning, for a price half or one third of those. That is a very very strong selling point. Phaeton, on the other hand, is just another luxury sedan that is not faster, quieter, bigger, better looking, or significantly cheaper than its main competitors from Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Lexus. Lacking of apparent engineering and aesthetic advantages over its competitors, in addition to the fact that Volkswagen has no luxurious or prestigious image and history, was the main reason this car failed in the United States, imo.
12-05-08, 01:03 AM
#15
yes most people have said what I wanted to say, so it would be redundant for me to repeat the same things 
I will just say, the GTR performs as well or better than many $150k+ cars, while the Phaeton can not provide the comfort, luxury, and prestige of the $150k+ sedans.
I'm sure if VW builds a 70k sports car that can rival the 911 Turbo or the GTR, I'm sure it'll sell as hot as the GTR (well, maybe).
I will just say, the GTR performs as well or better than many $150k+ cars, while the Phaeton can not provide the comfort, luxury, and prestige of the $150k+ sedans.
I'm sure if VW builds a 70k sports car that can rival the 911 Turbo or the GTR, I'm sure it'll sell as hot as the GTR (well, maybe).