View Poll Results: What do you think?
Yes all 3 will fail
14
21.21%
2 will survive, 1 will fail
38
57.58%
All will survive
14
21.21%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll
1SICKREPORT : Why the American Auto industry will fall
12-08-08, 05:42 PM
#31
Lexus Champion
Look at the minivan--Chrysler was the innovator, and created the class. And now, who makes the best minivans? Toyota and Honda. GM has never produced a minivan that was even slightly competitive. It took the Japanese a generation or two to perfect, but they surpassed the Chrysler minivan by a mile.
THAT is what is slowing down the US car companies.
12-08-08, 05:44 PM
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Here is the weird thing to me about chrysler, until recently they were held by daimlerbenz, a german car company, so there should have been more european advances, i.e., smaller, fuel efficent cars, but instead they fell in the same trap of GM and Ford, with producing big SUVs, etc. I think GM or Ford would save chrysler if they didn't have thier own problems, so yes I think chrysler is doomed, with maybe only Jeep, Ram and Viper brands surviving in some way.
Benz in return took all their cash and invested it in fixing Benz's quality issues and into AMG and new products like the R class.
Chrysler was doing very well, the deal was for 40 billion. Well a few years later, Benz turned it around financially and Chrysler was in the dumps. Instead of trying to turn around Chrysler, Daimhler left them for dead and sold it to Cerebus. I mean those idiots didn't leave Chrysler one small/economy car!!!
I'm not very hot on Daihmler right now. Yes its business but they basically milked CHrysler dry and left them for dead.
Daihmler still owns about 20% of Chrysler.
12-08-08, 05:45 PM
#33
Lexus Champion
I would agree with you that there are many jobs that are being outsourced overseas
, but I would disagree that it is entirely a cost saving measure.
In many cases, there are simply not enough qualified "professionals" to fill the needs of an industry. There is another thread on here that specically speaks to the growing shortage of doctors that you will soon be facing. The reality is that medical schools within North America will not be able to keep up with the growing demand.
Architects are another perfect example. The architectural firm that we use has faced the same labor difficulties that most industries are facing. They ended up opening an office in Mumbai, not because it was cheaper, but because they could acquire well educated, English speaking architects.
I cannot speak directly to automotive engineers, but are there enough homegrown ones to fill the needs?
If outsourcing is solely a cost cutting maneuver that could be met locally, then I also disagree with it.
, but I would disagree that it is entirely a cost saving measure.In many cases, there are simply not enough qualified "professionals" to fill the needs of an industry. There is another thread on here that specically speaks to the growing shortage of doctors that you will soon be facing. The reality is that medical schools within North America will not be able to keep up with the growing demand.
Architects are another perfect example. The architectural firm that we use has faced the same labor difficulties that most industries are facing. They ended up opening an office in Mumbai, not because it was cheaper, but because they could acquire well educated, English speaking architects.
I cannot speak directly to automotive engineers, but are there enough homegrown ones to fill the needs?
If outsourcing is solely a cost cutting maneuver that could be met locally, then I also disagree with it.
12-08-08, 06:39 PM
#35
Dysfunctional Veteran
Couple of things, Mike. First, if you like the new Malibu, you will probably like the Saturn Aura....it is the same car with some minor trim and dash lighting differences. (I checked out a new Aura XE several weeks ago for my pastor, but didn't write it up). Both Malibu and Aura also come in hybrid versions.
as far as the hybrid...direct from saturns website:
2009 AURA Hybrid (very limited availability)
BEFORE MARKUP:MSRP $26,685.00
EPA ratings: 26city/34Hwy
that is DISGRACEFUL for (What will be) a $30,000+hybrid car out the door. spend a little more and get the fantasticly fast XR-V6 with all the luxury appointments. sure its worse on gas, but its not horrible.
The Prius is $2000 cheaper, gets DOUBLE the mileage (45 city/48 hwy) and is more spacious...and you can get a sunroof, a MUST have on my cars.
and the Honda Civic Hybrid is even CHEAPER at $23,000 loaded, and gets 40 city, 48 hwy.
so why get the aura hybrid? I really dont see a reason.
12-08-08, 06:54 PM
#38
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Volkswagen AG came out today in support of the bailout, because they, along with every other import operating in the "right to work" states, know that a failure of GM would drag down the entire supplier base, grinding production to a half for a long period of time.
Last edited by FKL; 12-08-08 at 06:57 PM.
12-08-08, 07:08 PM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
The 3.6L V6 continues on the XR model.
as far as the hybrid...direct from saturns website:
2009 AURA Hybrid (very limited availability)
BEFORE MARKUP:MSRP $26,685.00
EPA ratings: 26city/34Hwy
that is DISGRACEFUL for (What will be) a $30,000+hybrid car out the door. spend a little more and get the fantasticly fast XR-V6 with all the luxury appointments. sure its worse on gas, but its not horrible.
The Prius is $2000 cheaper, gets DOUBLE the mileage (45 city/48 hwy) and is more spacious...and you can get a sunroof, a MUST have on my cars.
and the Honda Civic Hybrid is even CHEAPER at $23,000 loaded, and gets 40 city, 48 hwy.
so why get the aura hybrid? I really dont see a reason.
2009 AURA Hybrid (very limited availability)
BEFORE MARKUP:MSRP $26,685.00
EPA ratings: 26city/34Hwy
that is DISGRACEFUL for (What will be) a $30,000+hybrid car out the door. spend a little more and get the fantasticly fast XR-V6 with all the luxury appointments. sure its worse on gas, but its not horrible.
The Prius is $2000 cheaper, gets DOUBLE the mileage (45 city/48 hwy) and is more spacious...and you can get a sunroof, a MUST have on my cars.
and the Honda Civic Hybrid is even CHEAPER at $23,000 loaded, and gets 40 city, 48 hwy.
so why get the aura hybrid? I really dont see a reason.
Ford is introducing a new Fusion Hybrid, though, with advanced hybrid-mileage dash-display gauges, and GM may need to keep them around just to have competition on paper.
12-08-08, 07:55 PM
#40
Lexus Fanatic
they single handedly created an entire generation of consumers who know their products are trash. Even if they are better now, not many of us want to gamble when buying a car. They did it to themselves. I think the entry of objective consumer rankings and reports was the beginning of the end for the big 3
12-08-08, 08:28 PM
#41
Lexus Champion
No offense dude, but you really dont understand anything.
If their were no unions, then the big 3 would just hire cheep labor and pay everyone min wage. Also while its true the UAW does want job security and money, who doesnt want that? Would you be willing to work for a company knowing full well it could be your last day working? Plus all the higher ups in company already pay themselves a great deal of money, if the union didnt take money from the corperations, then the higher ups would.
If their were no unions, then the big 3 would just hire cheep labor and pay everyone min wage. Also while its true the UAW does want job security and money, who doesnt want that? Would you be willing to work for a company knowing full well it could be your last day working? Plus all the higher ups in company already pay themselves a great deal of money, if the union didnt take money from the corperations, then the higher ups would.
You know want: If the Big 3 to survive, then you'd have to SCRAP the UAW and wipe them out from the face of the earth.
In fact, hasn't anyone learned that labor unions in the auto world = epic fail?
Heck, you should know better that the UAW is a cancer to the American Auto Industry (esp. that Jobs Bank program). Not to mention that labor strikes = production halts hence inefficiency. That is why in Japan and a few other countries, labor unions are banned. It's like the Nissan factory in my country. When management heard that there were plans by its workers to form a union group, boom! Production was halted and management shut the factory for a few days. X-trail exports from the factory to Malaysia and Indonesia were affected........but this is the price when union groups or even the idea of forming unions brings more harm than good.
So indeed, UAW is a sickness that the American auto industry must get rid of.
P.S.
If it wants to increase its chances of surviving in this harsh economic times...
12-08-08, 08:32 PM
#42
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This is going to end up in the Debate forum pretty soon....
Spoken like a union member.
Would I be willing to work for a company knowing full well today could be last day at work? Short answer, yes.
MOST people live this way. I live in a Right-to-Work state. I don't work for a union. No one I personally know works for a union. We all go to work every day and work hard. And we all know that, if we don't work hard, we can be fired. This is called LIFE.
How do I earn more than minimum wage? I work hard. I work harder than the next guy.
You did a very nice job of making my point; I'm going to use your quote to reinforce it.
We're not talking about highly-skilled labor here. You don't need an MBA with a minor in Electrical Engineering to do the kinds of jobs we're talking about. We're talking about what are basically unskilled labor tasks or jobs that require minimal on-the job training. "If their were no unions, then the big 3 would just hire cheep labor and pay everyone min(imum) wage."
The only people that think it's a good idea to pay someone $40/hour for a doing a minimum wage job are the people that either a) are actually working that job or b) have friends/relatives who work that job.
How can McDonald's sell a hamburger for only $.79? Because they have a cheap labor force.
You don't want to spend your life working a minimum wage job? That wouldn't be "fair"? Then get an education and EARN a high-wage job and work hard at that job to EARN a raise and/or promotion. That's the American way.
This is called "Modernization". It makes for a higher-quality product. I buy products based on their quality; not based on the whether or not the company is trying to make work for "Americans".
Now here's a thought from someone who clearly "doesn't understand anything" (to borrow your phrase).
Spoken like a union member.
Would I be willing to work for a company knowing full well today could be last day at work? Short answer, yes.
MOST people live this way. I live in a Right-to-Work state. I don't work for a union. No one I personally know works for a union. We all go to work every day and work hard. And we all know that, if we don't work hard, we can be fired. This is called LIFE.
How do I earn more than minimum wage? I work hard. I work harder than the next guy.
You did a very nice job of making my point; I'm going to use your quote to reinforce it.
We're not talking about highly-skilled labor here. You don't need an MBA with a minor in Electrical Engineering to do the kinds of jobs we're talking about. We're talking about what are basically unskilled labor tasks or jobs that require minimal on-the job training. "If their were no unions, then the big 3 would just hire cheep labor and pay everyone min(imum) wage."
The only people that think it's a good idea to pay someone $40/hour for a doing a minimum wage job are the people that either a) are actually working that job or b) have friends/relatives who work that job.
How can McDonald's sell a hamburger for only $.79? Because they have a cheap labor force.
You don't want to spend your life working a minimum wage job? That wouldn't be "fair"? Then get an education and EARN a high-wage job and work hard at that job to EARN a raise and/or promotion. That's the American way.
This is called "Modernization". It makes for a higher-quality product. I buy products based on their quality; not based on the whether or not the company is trying to make work for "Americans".
Now here's a thought from someone who clearly "doesn't understand anything" (to borrow your phrase).
Look the unions are really a minor issue. Also you dont need a degree to build a car. Plus you can talk all you want about modernizing plants but if everyone loses their job, no one will be able to buy a car.
Your an optimistic, you actually believe that working hard alone will let you succeed. Like i said before I used to live in Detroit now i live in Newport Beach.Anyways if your a lower-middle class plant worker who gets laid off in detroit. Your not going to have any jobs to get. You cant just expect because 1 manufacturing job gets lost a new service job will get made. Their is no law that says that jobs must be made. And knowing the rich business people here in newport, they would in a heart beat fire everyone if they could make more money. If it wasnt for the unions, there would be no jobs in a ton of industrys.
But honestly all this union talk is truly irrelevant. Its a minor issue really.
The fact is no one is buying american cars. Thats the true problem. Looking around here all I see is people driving Bimmers, Benz, Range Rovers, Audis, Porches and of course Lexus. Not to mention ferraris, lambos and bentelys with the occasion jag and aston martin. No one is buying Caddys, I actually see more RXs and M benzs then Escalades and unless I am on the peninsula I dont see any 300s either. The pontiac g6 is soo cheep. yet i dont see people trading in their older hondas for it. Basically for all price levals no one likes their cars. Hell I even see a ton of tacomas, so its not just their cars no one likes.
At the end of the day the big 3 just arent making enough sales. Its their cars that are the problem. Everything else is really just a secondary issue and its a distraction to focus on cost cutting when inferior products are the problem. (n no i'm not talking about quality but style. bmws n audis are terrible qualiity yet people buy them)
An "investment" is defined as "the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value."
How many people on here bought a new car that's now worth more than they paid for it?
A car is an "expense". It's going to cost you money to own and operate. It's always going to lose money (for this argument, we're NOT talking about a Ferarri 288 GTO...we're talking about the everyday cars we drive). A good car will depreciate LESS than a crappy car but, that certainly doesn't make it an "investment".
How many people on here bought a new car that's now worth more than they paid for it?
A car is an "expense". It's going to cost you money to own and operate. It's always going to lose money (for this argument, we're NOT talking about a Ferarri 288 GTO...we're talking about the everyday cars we drive). A good car will depreciate LESS than a crappy car but, that certainly doesn't make it an "investment".
What the hell? You're actually thinking of siding with these UAW douche-bags (a primary scum of the American auto industry)???
You know want: If the Big 3 to survive, then you'd have to SCRAP the UAW and wipe them out from the face of the earth.
In fact, hasn't anyone learned that labor unions in the auto world = epic fail?
Heck, you should know better that the UAW is a cancer to the American Auto Industry (esp. that Jobs Bank program). Not to mention that labor strikes = production halts hence inefficiency. That is why in Japan and a few other countries, labor unions are banned. It's like the Nissan factory in my country. When management heard that there were plans by its workers to form a union group, boom! Production was halted and management shut the factory for a few days. X-trail exports from the factory to Malaysia and Indonesia were affected........but this is the price when union groups or even the idea of forming unions brings more harm than good.
So indeed, UAW is a sickness that the American auto industry must get rid of.
P.S.
If it wants to increase its chances of surviving in this harsh economic times...
You know want: If the Big 3 to survive, then you'd have to SCRAP the UAW and wipe them out from the face of the earth.
In fact, hasn't anyone learned that labor unions in the auto world = epic fail?
Heck, you should know better that the UAW is a cancer to the American Auto Industry (esp. that Jobs Bank program). Not to mention that labor strikes = production halts hence inefficiency. That is why in Japan and a few other countries, labor unions are banned. It's like the Nissan factory in my country. When management heard that there were plans by its workers to form a union group, boom! Production was halted and management shut the factory for a few days. X-trail exports from the factory to Malaysia and Indonesia were affected........but this is the price when union groups or even the idea of forming unions brings more harm than good.
So indeed, UAW is a sickness that the American auto industry must get rid of.
P.S.
If it wants to increase its chances of surviving in this harsh economic times...
Simply put no labor unions = no jobs, no jobs = no reason for the auto industry to even exist. IDK how its in the Philippians but here in america people actually like and want a middle class.
Last edited by Ryeno; 12-08-08 at 08:39 PM.
12-08-08, 09:13 PM
#43
Lexus Champion
12-08-08, 09:29 PM
#44
Lexus Champion
I'm not a union worker but I can understand where they are coming from. You on the other hand sound like a perfect example of the American Education System.
Look the unions are really a minor issue. Also you dont need a degree to build a car. Plus you can talk all you want about modernizing plants but if everyone loses their job, no one will be able to buy a car.
Your an optimistic, you actually believe that working hard alone will let you succeed. Like i said before I used to live in Detroit now i live in Newport Beach.Anyways if your a lower-middle class plant worker who gets laid off in detroit. Your not going to have any jobs to get. You cant just expect because 1 manufacturing job gets lost a new service job will get made. Their is no law that says that jobs must be made. And knowing the rich business people here in newport, they would in a heart beat fire everyone if they could make more money. If it wasnt for the unions, there would be no jobs in a ton of industrys.
But honestly all this union talk is truly irrelevant. Its a minor issue really.
The fact is no one is buying american cars. Thats the true problem. Looking around here all I see is people driving Bimmers, Benz, Range Rovers, Audis, Porches and of course Lexus. Not to mention ferraris, lambos and bentelys with the occasion jag and aston martin. No one is buying Caddys, I actually see more RXs and M benzs then Escalades and unless I am on the peninsula I dont see any 300s either. The pontiac g6 is soo cheep. yet i dont see people trading in their older hondas for it. Basically for all price levals no one likes their cars. Hell I even see a ton of tacomas, so its not just their cars no one likes.
At the end of the day the big 3 just arent making enough sales. Its their cars that are the problem. Everything else is really just a secondary issue and its a distraction to focus on cost cutting when inferior products are the problem. (n no i'm not talking about quality but style. bmws n audis are terrible qualiity yet people buy them)
Let me repharse myself. People wont invest their money into a car when they don't know if spare parts will be available if they brake.
Thank, my point exactly. Get rid of the labor unions and were gonna turn america in the Philippians. Last time i checked the whole world wasnt trying to immigrate to the phillipeans.
Simply put no labor unions = no jobs, no jobs = no reason for the auto industry to even exist. IDK how its in the Philippians but here in america people actually like and want a middle class.
Look the unions are really a minor issue. Also you dont need a degree to build a car. Plus you can talk all you want about modernizing plants but if everyone loses their job, no one will be able to buy a car.
Your an optimistic, you actually believe that working hard alone will let you succeed. Like i said before I used to live in Detroit now i live in Newport Beach.Anyways if your a lower-middle class plant worker who gets laid off in detroit. Your not going to have any jobs to get. You cant just expect because 1 manufacturing job gets lost a new service job will get made. Their is no law that says that jobs must be made. And knowing the rich business people here in newport, they would in a heart beat fire everyone if they could make more money. If it wasnt for the unions, there would be no jobs in a ton of industrys.
But honestly all this union talk is truly irrelevant. Its a minor issue really.
The fact is no one is buying american cars. Thats the true problem. Looking around here all I see is people driving Bimmers, Benz, Range Rovers, Audis, Porches and of course Lexus. Not to mention ferraris, lambos and bentelys with the occasion jag and aston martin. No one is buying Caddys, I actually see more RXs and M benzs then Escalades and unless I am on the peninsula I dont see any 300s either. The pontiac g6 is soo cheep. yet i dont see people trading in their older hondas for it. Basically for all price levals no one likes their cars. Hell I even see a ton of tacomas, so its not just their cars no one likes.
At the end of the day the big 3 just arent making enough sales. Its their cars that are the problem. Everything else is really just a secondary issue and its a distraction to focus on cost cutting when inferior products are the problem. (n no i'm not talking about quality but style. bmws n audis are terrible qualiity yet people buy them)
Let me repharse myself. People wont invest their money into a car when they don't know if spare parts will be available if they brake.
Thank, my point exactly. Get rid of the labor unions and were gonna turn america in the Philippians. Last time i checked the whole world wasnt trying to immigrate to the phillipeans.
Simply put no labor unions = no jobs, no jobs = no reason for the auto industry to even exist. IDK how its in the Philippians but here in america people actually like and want a middle class.
The UAW is not a minor issue by any means. The purpose of a union is to protect the weak in a day and age when a corporation would completely exploit the worker with no regard for their well being. In today's society with explicit labor law, it would be nearly impossible for one of automakers to truly exploit their employees. Besides, how would that benefit the company? Human resources is the number one priority of industy in North America. How would creating a reputation of exploiting their employees move these companies forward?
If you take the average wage of a unionized GFC employee at $75/hr including benefits and compare it to the non-unionized employee at Toyota at $45/hr, it isn't complicated math to figure out why Toyota is profitable and GFC isn't. For those employees that lose their job and can't find new employment....guess what?...they should have sought further education or additional employable skills. The quality employees will find other work. The dead weight that GFC have been forced to carry is a major factor in their inability to be competitive with foreign automakers.
What is with the comment about the Phillipines? (which you spelled two different ways
) This makes no sense and has no relevance.
The bottom line is that if labor unions didn't exist...there wouldn't be such a need to outsource and American companies could compete on a more level global playing field.
12-09-08, 12:39 AM
#45
Pole Position
Aren't white collar jobs going overseas at a rapid rate, as well? I think you can hire three engineers in India for the price of one engineer in the USA. With telecommunications, it is no big deal. The jobs that are safer appear to be in sales and service - jobs that require either people skills or technical expertise, combined with manual labor.