drink300

Great write-up SICK.

I'm also in that akward situation of not wanting to see the destruction that will inevitably be caused by these companies dying, etc... but on the other hand secretly enjoying their demise.

For me, it's personal. I also lived through years of hell with an 88 Ford Tempo and an 86 Escort. We were already so poor and those car bills just about did us in. Having to decide between buying food or fixing the car that takes your mom to the job that buys you food is something no family should have to endure. But that reality was brought to life by the low-lives at Ford Motor Company.

I also remember many harrowing road trips. Like the family trip to Colorado where we couldn't make it up a hill and started to roll backwards due to lack of power and had to find an alternate route! Not to be outdone, the Tempo stranded us more time that I can remember (LITERALLY). And how could I forget the 3x we had to replace the tranny, the 2x we replaced the radiator and the time we replaced the head gasket. But the best of all was when smoke poured into the car through the vents after a fire in the engine compartment! And this doesn't even begin to spell out the horrors of the electrical, ignition and a/c problems we faced. I replaced the starter 2x, the alternator 4x and the water pump 2x.

Just sitting here wrting this makes me want to personally testify on Capitol Hill on why these car companies should be allowed to fail. I am so angry I could scream!

Ford made a fool out of my family one too many times. They dealt us pain, heartache, embarassment and sadness. DOWN WITH FORD!

Good riddance and may God have mercy on all the souls who will inevitably lose their jobs.

rdgdawg

Sadly, PRIDE has been replaced by GREED... failure (in some form ie bankruptcy, NOT bailout) and complete restructure IMO is the only way to get US automakers back on the map MINUS unions... if one is able do math, one can figure it out... it's pretty black and white

tex2670

Unions or no, the key problem with bankruptcy is the uncertainty of the warranty. A car's a major purchase, and if it is questionable whether the make is going to survive, and it's questionable who's going to honor any warranty, it's just going to be devastating to sales. Anyone who was on the fence about buying from the Big 3 will be convinced not to. And given that the reliability of the Big 3 is, as a whole, not top notch, how many people will risk their hard-earned money on that??

It's not like the airline bankruptcies. If you are booking airline tix, you are rolling the dice that the airline will still be around when you take your trip. And--if you book your ticket 4-8 weeks in advance, what's the likelihood that, in that short time frame, the airline just shuts down (I'm not saying it can't happen--it did earlier this year with some Ohio based airline). But, it's a calculated risk, and once your trip is over, you dodged the bullet, and you move on.

I just don't see getting past the warranty hurdle.

Habious

The union workers are the ones building these low-quality cars. When people talk about "quality" of American cars, they're talking about "build quality". They're talking about the poor job the people who actually put the car together are going.

And, the reason that the Big 3 can't sell cars for a profit are the Union wages! They're paying the vast majority of their workforce $30-40 more PER HOUR than their competition. Yeah, how can anyone wonder why they can't compete?


This has been my life's experience...and the life of everyone I personally know. Work harder than the next guy; be smarter than the next guy; know more than the next guy. Work hard and you WILL succeed.

Exactly, there's no law that states that someone with no marketable skill is entitled to a high-paying job.

I've mentioned this before in other threads about unions; I met a guy who worked in the union metalshop where my dad was an engineer (he was non-union). The union worker was proud...PROUD of the fact that he had this high-paying job yet couldn't read or write. How do you argue that kind of stupidity? He got the job without being able to read or write; this is luck, not a "right". Not everyone has the "right" to hold a high-paying job that they're in no way qualified for. You want a high-paying job to support your family?....earn it!

rdgdawg

I do agree on the warranty issue, in fact, one of the first points I brought when discussing the auto issue amoung friends and family. People are already NOT buying these autos... Chapter 11 will help restructure debt loads AND abolish the union deals. I believe K-Mart came out of Chapter 11 and bought Target only two years later.

Again, IMO a proper message (hey, the automakers are the kings of media/advertising) on how warranties will be honored going forward AND recommittment to building QUALITY autos is key.

What about all the folks who bought US cars in the last 18 months or so... bet they're sweating about the same thing!

The American public is quick to see the mighty fall, and quick to root for the underdog... just ask Lee Iacocca...

gbondioli

Quick correction: K-Mart bought Sears.
It may be inconvenient, but if you are only good at one thing AND you want a high paying job, you may have to move out of your geographic area. Not to be mean, but even sheep know this. Once they've grazed an area and killed the grass, they move on! It appears that Detroit has been grazed down to the roots.

gshb

oh noes! are you saying sheep are smarter than the union workers?

Habious

No, but he's saying that union workers expect that someone should GIVE them a high-paying job, in their geographic area, without learning a new skill, because they "deserve" it; it's their "right".

gbondioli

Well, just when it comes to that one basic survival skill: finding food. In all other areas (tying shoes, TV trivia, balancing checkbook, servicing automobile, throwing & catching, debating, etc, etc, etc) I think union workers are smarter 100% of the time! Unfortunately, their debating skill can override their instinct for finding food, at times. OK, I said I didn't want to be mean, so I will knock it off now.

The only real life union-mentality story I have came from somebody I know in Janesville, WI (home of GM plant... now closed?). She told me about a guy who works there. Not the brightest bulb, but a nice guy. After he got a divorce, he literally had (a few) women flocking to him FOR HIS INSURANCE! Some lady married him - till death do us part - to get on his insurance plan. I wonder how that's working out for them ?

mmarshall

You can't blame UAW people for what the company bean-counters do in specifying cheap, poor-quality parts for their vehicles. Take brake rotors, for example.....something that GM cars have a lot of trouble with. Use poor-quality metal in the design and they are going to warp, no matter how well the poor guy on the assembly line does. He/she can fit them on the wheels and calipers with laser-guided precision, and heat buildup will still get to them.

Same with outside mirrors. Compare the quality and thickness of the plastic used for the mirror-housings, and how easily and slickly they swivel, on the average Ford/GM/Chrysler vehicle, and then compare the same parts on a Honda, Subaru, Acura, Lexus, etc..... You will see exactly what I'm talking about (and what I write up in car reviews). That (and similiar issues like it) are not union problems.....they are designer problems.

gshb

the rear view mirror on my IS is pretty darn cheap. actually its the worst one i have ever had because i could never see anything in it because it vibrates so much while moving. but i think its actually because of suppliers. suppliers make these components for as cheap as possible while maintaining some sort of standard set by their customers.

gbondioli

OK, one more real life story. Somehow I've managed to bring pharmacy into this. That insurance story reminded me of one time I was working in Janesville at a pharmacy. The GM insurance plan was VERY GOOD. In fact, there was a woman who didn't have to pay anything to pick up her prescriptions. From her attitude, she must have thought she was better than everyone else. She tried to butt in front of three people ahead of her in line who were waiting to pay. I told her the price of her medicine had nothing to do with her place in line, we still had to sell her Rx's through the register to mark them as sold. The procedure was the same. What I wanted to tell her was that, if anything, she should have to wait longer, since she did not have to pay. I don't care what kind of insurance people have, but it was really an attitude thing. I saw a lot of people with negative, gimme gimme attitudes whenever I worked in Janesville. Was it just coincidence that GM was the major employer, there? I think not.

mmarshall

I was talking about the exterior side mirrors, not the one hanging inside from the windshield. But I do agree with you, that the overall quality of the second-gen Lexus IS is not quite the same as with the first. I know....I owned an IS300 for almost 5 years.

Threxx

At this point I believe it would almost be healthier for GM to declare bankruptcy to shed themselves of their ridiculous union labor and dealer network obligations that make it literally impossible for them to be competitive with companies without these hinderances.

BTW, what is it with people on this forum referring to themselves in the 3rd person?? Lots of people here do it and I've never seen it on any other forum. It comes off egocentric to me, but maybe it's not meant that way.

Habious

True but, they have to price the vehicle at a specific price-range if they want it to sell. They have to price it competitively.

They can't make the highest-quality car in the world, with every single feature, and sell it for the price of an entry-level Camry; they'll obviously lose money on every sale.

Corners have to be cut.

Just like when getting your car serviced, there are two main areas; parts & labor.

Because of the union's grip on the labor pool, they simply cannot reduce their labor costs so, they have to cut corners elsewhere. Result: they buy cheaper parts.

Now, I'm not going to say that Americans design cars as good as the Japanese or Europeans. It's simply not true. I have seen so many niggling little things in rentals cars that make me truly and honestly believe that the person who designed that car (or that particular item) has never driven that car...sometimes the problems are THAT obvious. Sometimes I wonder if the engineers bike to work and don't even hold a Driver's License.

But, until they can reduce their labor costs to a realistic and manageable level, they're going to have to cut corners elsewhere...and continue to use sub-standard parts.