LexFather

I hate to type this. I really do. For the past 5 years with the explosion of internet car forums there has been one topic that has always been very intense and heated.

The death of GM/Ford/Chrysler. This is a topic I've flip flopped on recently in news of a bailout for them. I still am indecisive on my decision if they should be bailed out or not. However what I do know is it simply doesn't matter b/c it is inevitable that all 3 will eventually fail and be gone in the wind.

I can really sum this up in one sentence. Its utterly pathetic and its a sign these brands will fail when the majority of people seem to hate the brand/brands and get some sort of sick joy/grin in knowing they are hurting/failing in AMERICA. Hate your own kind won't you?

When Nissan was failing in the 1990s, there was a sense in Japan that it needed help and something needed to be done. There wasn't a bunch of Japanese people CHEERING for Nissan to fall (they got bought by the French and the rest is history).

I am not sure what is sadder. The state of GM/Ford/Chrysler or the state of mind way to many people have in seemingly wanting them to fall. Its also kind of amazing to see quite a few people now quickly switch sides b/c the economy is falling and they have now figured out its not just about "ME" but about "US". To top this point off, the way the Congressman are treating these CEOs is an exact example of how Americans seemingly have NO MERCY for these brands.

Some of you know my family has owned a GM product and well to sum it up, it met expectations as a good car (1992 Pontiac Grand AM) up until it started to get old. It literally fell apart month by month. Mind you we are a family that takes care of cars and items in general. The final straw was having to buy a new engine for it when the engine blew not a couple months after it was paid off at 150k miles.

We also gave a Taurus LX and Taurus SHO a go in the 1980s/early 1990s and I don't remember them too much b/c they were never in the garage. They were in the damn shop all the time. So no more Ford products for us either.

In comparison the CHEAPEST car owned, a basic Nissan Sentra E was flawless for us. The only thing I remember being changed was the exhaust around 138k.

Lets get deeper here. As a CHILD/TEEN my parents take me in these cars to school, the mall, baseball practice etc. What did I see? The Sentra? What did I hear bished about? The Ford and GM car. Over and over and over.

Well lets increase this millions fold b/c this is what American children remember in the 1980s and 1990s. They remember their parents having American cars and Japanese cars. What do they buy today, no questions asked? Japanese cars and American cars.

So you basically have 3 huge car brands that screwed their future indirectly by selling crappy cars to parents for over 2 decades.

Lets talk about image some. There are a few people on here who live in a glass jar but for most of us, we know how important IMAGE is. Is it silly? That is not up for debate. What we do know is how VITAL IMAGE is to not just your car brand but to ANY business.

I've quoted many auto luxury CEOs who state the same thing "successful people want to be associated with successful brands". Well there is NOTHING successful about these 3 giant companies as a whole the past few years and some will argue last few decades. A great Z06 here, a great Fusion there, a great 300C here, cannot change the image of entire brands faltering. Their image is BAD, low. GM/Ford/Chrysler have SADLY overtaken Kia and Hyundai as the "bad brands".

Lets increase this millions fold. You see I will say most Americans don't read. They watched Sex in the City. So they had no idea that Chrysler/Ford/GM was on the brink. Well if you don't know NOW, you must be on the moon. Around the globe everyone is aware how bad financially these companies are doing. Guess what? Now millions of people who were not aware of their problems, ARE and they will NOW skip the brands b/c they do not want to be associated with them or they are scared they will go out of business.

The American Auto Industry should ask for all the BILLIONS they paid countless management executives as salary BACK. B/C they did NOTHING in pretty much 30 years. NOTHING. To think of how many men got paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, or stock options, free cars, etc to run 3 Auto giants into the ground. THEY RAN AMERICAN CAR PRIDE INTO THE GROUND!!! These people should be interviewed and exposed. Lets give you an example.

Ford Explorer. Initially genius, turning basically a Ford Ranger with a closed top into the new American sedan. They got the image part right (vans are uncool now) and they got the profit part right (sell for 3 times the price of the truck its based on) and sold like nuts. Everyone had one.

Instead of taking the Explorer to the next level, maybe going car based or adding some style to it they basically LED IT TO ITS DEATH. Ford watched as the competition copied the basic Ford Explorer formula and made it tons better. Ford used to sell around 400k of these a year I believe. Its down to around 100k. It went from one of the top 10 selling vehicles to not in the top 20.

The Ford Explorer summarizes exactly what is wrong with American companies. They start strong, get spoiled, let the product languish, then watch its competition get better and watch market share erode.

Its sad really b/c their products are substantially better than in the past. However they RARELY blow out the competition. They are still either "as good" or "a better value". They rarely are just plain out BETTER.

Some of it is NOT these companies fault. The American people would rather buy an IMPORT than a comparable American car. What is so IRONIC is that the most POPULAR imports here are BUILT and DESIGNED here. Camry, Accord, Altima, CR-V, all built here. I've literally had arguements with 3 people I know that refuse to believe their Camry and Accord is built here! (no its not, its Japanese, made in Japan) We as a people are so uninformed and so influenced into thinking the old status quo is just "better" we won't give our own American companies a fair chance. I don't mean that couple in the Midwest who will buy Fords and GMs no matter what. I'm taking about that city couple or that family in a subdivision in a metropolitan area.

The dealerships who have made great strides in recent years will be FORCED to cut costs, staff, and revert to shady ways to survive. The UAV seems hell bent in winning, which means GM/Ford/Chrysler LOSING.

Lets not jump to the economy. I don't see it returning to normal levels (which were clearly hyper inflated levels) in 5-7 years. Experts are saying we might get out by 2010 or so but that is if everything goes perfect. Some experts are saying its going to get worse than now. The bottom line is Ford/GM/Chrysler have NO TIME to waste and the economy is going to crush them. Not only do they have to battle getting people to seriously consider their cars, now they have to deal with the fact people simply cannot consider buying a car b/c they can't get one.
-job loss
-can't get a loan
-keeping onto their old car

Its the sad perfect storm for these brands failure.

I asked myself this question and I want you to do the same. Lets say when its time to buy your next vehicle, would u SERIOUSLY consider an American vehicle? I was truly scared when I realized the answer was a resounding "NO". This is how it went;
"SICK, time for a new vehicle, what about GM/Ford/Chrysler"
-Do I need a big truck? No. Well I won't shop them.
-Do I need a big SUV? No, well I won't consider them
-Do I need something efficient? Sounds good. Hybrids? They don't have class leading ones. Chrysler doesn't even have a small car. Sigh....
-I like the Corvette, but don't want/need a 2 seater now. No sale
-I like the Malibu A LOT but if I went American it would have to be more upscale. Buick is nice, I like a lot but the image kills it as well as FWD. Lets move to Caddy. The new CTS is very very nice. I might check it out. But I don't like the image and the 3.6 DI is clearly slower than the Lexus 3.5. The CTS-V I would get. What about the 300C? How about no. Maybe get a coupe, a Mustang or Challenger or Camaro? I like them but I wasn't even born when the original was out and they purposely RETRO'D the styling. Cool but I cannot relate.

So the only American car TODAY I would buy OVER a Lexus and the competition is the Cadillac CTS-V. Its also 65k and not in my price range and out of most Americans price range and radars.


Its very sad to say that when I have children I will be explaining to them that America USED to have 3 automotive giants.

mmarshall

Couple of things, Mike. First, if you like the new Malibu, you will probably like the Saturn Aura....it is the same car with some minor trim and dash lighting differences. (I checked out a new Aura XE several weeks ago for my pastor, but didn't write it up). Both Malibu and Aura also come in hybrid versions.

Second, the Buick "image" will kill only if you let it. Millions of people drive Buicks, and don't give a hoot about what anyone else thinks....the way it should be. And if you are concerned about Buick's FWD, note that both the Malibu (which you like) and the Aura have it.

Third, I can relate with you to some extent on the new Mustang, Challenger, and Chrysler 300. The retro styling may be nice (I grew up with the original Mustang and Challenger as a teen-ager), but today's retro versions just don't offer enough build quality....they are tinny, and use cheap parts. I'll hold comment on the new Camaro till I see it (yes, it's on my review list)

ren495

I got to say I'm both sad and grinning about this one. I am worried about the economy and what will happen if they fail- I'm guessing a depression if we're not in one yet. I'm also sad because I own 4 american cars- 1967 Cadillac Eldorado, '69 Eldorado, '76 Eldorado Convertible and a '69 Lincoln Continental with suicide doors. I love the old america cars. USA was on top of the automotive world in '50-60's.

But...man...these guys so freaking deserve it! I mean, talk about being out of touch with reality. Its not just the CEOs, it people like George Bush who ganged up with the big 3 back in 2003 to kill the Zero Emission Vehicle mandate in California. Then GM invested a billion in Hummer while Toyota was investing a billion in Hybrid technology and GM even had the nerve to laugh at Toyota saying they'll go bankrupt because noone will ever want hybrid/electric cars.

Talk about a bunch of bonafide L-O-S-E-R-S. These people have run the american auto industry and this country into the ground with their absolute stupidity and ignorance. These L-O-S-E-R-S deserve to crash and burn, though it is very painful and very sad to see.

Fisker Karma is sold out till like mid 2010. And Tesla roadster has a waiting list also. Get a clue people.

This is not just the car industry. I really believe the current administration thinks it is still 1950, just like the CEO of GM and Chrysler. We're still living in the 20th century. I'm so happy Obama won, finally we'll start paying attention to the issues of the 21st century and actually solving some real 21st century problems.

ren495

PS. Ford will not fail. Watch. Chrysler is done. GM maybe too. But Ford will survive.

CDNROCKIES

Mike, very well written...does it feel better to vent.

The saddest part is that unfortunately you are probably right.

mmarshall

Ford will survive. GM will probably survive. Chrysler, also probably, but not necessarily under the Chrysler name....it may be absorbed into another company.

The reason I say this is not because I think their vehicles are as good as their Asian/European-badged competitors (in many cases, they are not), but the incoming Obama administration and the new Congress is just too committed to their survival.
Just today, on Meet the Press, with Tom Brokaw, Obama said that, while his policy is not to throw money down a sinking ship or to use taxpayer dollars to prop up inefficiency or substandard products, the American auto firms simply cannot be permitted to fail.....too much is at stake. While you (or me) might not necessarily agree with him, he means what he says.....and intends to carry that out.

hapaboy

at the same time, the auto workers union has paralyzed management many times with what it can do with profits and innovation over the years. i bet the money spent for UAW bosses and attorney fees could equal the bailout amount.

Habious

As a taxpayer, I will agree to the Big 3 bailout under ONE condition....get the unions the hell out of there!!!

Honda and Toyota have proven that it can be done; you can build a quality automobile in the U.S., using U.S. parts, built by U.S. workers and sell it for a profit

But, their workers understand that, if they want a raise, they have to EARN it by doing a better job than the guy next to them...and, if they do a sub-standard job, they won't be working there very long.

The UAW doesn't care about producing a quality product...and they sure don't care about the profitability of the company. They want money and job security. They don't want their workers to earn it, they somehow think they're entitled to it.

The unions got Obama elected. There's no way Obama's going to get the Big 3 file for bankruptcy. Why? Because if they file for bankruptcy, they can renegotiate/void any labor contracts. Bye bye "Job Banks", bye bye $60/hour for unskilled labor jobs, bye bye the inability of management to fire substandard workers.

Lexmex

Excellent comments Mike.

I don't want to see anyone's industry fail, especially an American industry, but the American auto industry just doesn't get it, nobody can force Americans or anyone else to buy their vehicles. If you are going to continue to make dull vehicles that fall apart, you aren't going to get any buyers.

Having lived abroad in Mexico for the past 6 years, I saw American cars, mostly the European ones they don't sell here, and some do hold their own, such as the Astra and Mondeo, not to mention the budget Chevy (like the old Chevette but way better build and it come in 4 door sedan models). They target a certain segment of buyer and they do quite well. Kudos.

However, so many American vehicles, especially when I'd see their European and Asian competitors there, seemed doomed to fail. My Mexican friends would routinely mention how boxy American vehicles had gotten while other designs were much more modern. My Uncle Antonio, who many of you know from my photos in the RX300 forum, would routinely mention how a certain brands of U.S. vehicles (not just a particular model) were known for failing water pumps, transmissions, piston rings, etc. In fact, I'd meet other mechanics at my 1/4 mile track and they'd confirm the same thing to me.

It pains me to see it, but I think the CEOs of the big 3 are in denial or delusional in thinking if they just had some $$$ to get through this, they could retool or redesign. I honestly think they only care about themselves, their families and their retirement and as long as they got out of this jam personally, they'd be happy. My older relatives remember good American vehicles of the 1950s and earlier and a few muscle cars from the 60s. The big 4 (at the time) were in denial when Japanese imports hit the markets in the late 70s to start and later the 1980 for sure (the first car I ever drove was an 83 Accord), and 30 years later, they still haven't got it.

SLegacy99

Ford is def. doing a much better job at handling this situation. Chrysler has not reason to survive. I dont think the Challenger alone can save them.

bruce van

I truly hope that the Big 3 survine and that these companies can rise from the ashes and make America the leader in the automotive world. It's sad that that America created this industry and now it is on the brink of extinction.

I'm not an expert by any means and am just and an armchair internet critique. Bailout or no Bailout? For now, my vote is not. Let's let the Big 3 hit the reset button and reboot. I have faith in Americans and know that we have the most talented and innovative people in the world. Let's find them and put them in charge! Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz have to go. That is a given if GM is to recover. Bob Mullaly....he's making changes and probably isn't responsible for what has led Ford to this point. Nardelli...look at what he did for Home Depot....enough said.

Sadly, the only cars that I have even considered buying in the last couple of years has been the Saturn Sky and the upcoming Camaro.

The UAW and all of the Big 3 financial obligations aside from selling cars is what is killing them. Until we fix these problems, there is no hope for these companies.

(Stepping of my soap box now)

nthach

As much as I don't want to derail this thread, but I think Obama will make the taxpayers carry this burden for years to come.
IMO, Darwinism should prevail in this case, not throwing money at something that is broken for sometime.

Alan Mullally's a brilliant man - he beefed up Boeing against an Airbus attack, the 777, 737NG, and the 787 were projects done under him. Bob Nardelli, and the idiots in charge of GM need to go bye-bye. Nardelli has no business whatsoever in business, and I see Wagoner and Lutz as the automotive equivalents of Mike Jefferies - the creepy 60-something CEO of Abercrombie & Fitch who's a bit of a wingnut himself.

Dave600hL

Firstly, you are comparing apples with oranges when comparing the US to Japan. The situation was completely different. At the time the Japanese Government stance was get a buyer or fail, no loans ,no advances , nothing. So there would be no reason for the Japanese people to want the company to fail. On the other hand , the CEO's of the big three continue to do a bang up job of running their respective companies all the while bleeding the government of tax payers hard earned cash. So of corse there is going to be ill will amongst ordinary folk towards these companies, I mean how much longer can the tax payer support them? If they were let fail in the first place it might not have hit everyone so hard???

So I suggest that you don't be so hard on Mr Genral public for wanting them to fail.

jdoggg1

Personally i think the American sentiment against the big 3 stems from their unwillingness to produce the kind of vehicles the public wants. I really think that the American auto companies based their entire strategy around "buzz wants" like cheap sticker prices, BIG SUVs, ridiculous power output, or simple flashy looks. What they should have been working on is fit and finish, reliability, and sustainability.

My negative opinion of American vehicles is not from other peope's words. It's first hand experience in American cars, years after they were new. For example, after several years nearly every Camry, Accord, or Civic has has fewer problems, rattles, and issues than their Americn counterparts.

The new Malibu was the first American car I drove in the last few years where, if i had entered the vehicle not knowing what it was, I would not have immediately known it was American by the cheap plastic feel or the gaps in the trim.

I'm sure I'll catch flack for these statements, but I'd rather see the big 3 fail than for the government to bail them out and allow them to keep pumping out inferior vehicles hoping that "buy american" is enough to keep the lots rotating stock. If they want to truly succeed (and gain the nation's respect) , I think they need to catch up to Japanese quality and feel.

Ryeno

iTrader: (3)

No offense dude, but you really dont understand anything.

If their were no unions, then the big 3 would just hire cheep labor and pay everyone min wage. Also while its true the UAW does want job security and money, who doesnt want that? Would you be willing to work for a company knowing full well it could be your last day working? Plus all the higher ups in company already pay themselves a great deal of money, if the union didnt take money from the corperations, then the higher ups would.

Also toyota cars that are made in the usa use less then half of us parts. Not to mention they are made with way more computerized labor. Basically they just assemble the stuff with robots in america, so they can say its made in america. Then the real money goes back to japan. Sadly the big 3 arent much better, a lot of their parts come from outside the us as well. But hay atleast the real money goes to detroit.

Back to the unions. You say they need to file bankruptcy to get new contracts. Guess what, jos have been exported away from the us this whole time. even under the current contracts. Plants to mexico, white collar jobs to india. It's called outsourcing. It's not the cost of producing the cars thats killing the big 3. its the cars. Most of their line-up is just trash. Forget even their realibilty, I mean their looks. Chrystler honestly has some of the best looking cars(300,laredo, ect) but thats no where near bmw, where all the cars look good. So bmw ends up getting a better rep. American cars have a bad image because most of them are bad. And this ends up hurting the whole brand, even the good cars.

BTW no one would buy a car from a company thats bankrupt. Cars are long term investments, if you know that company that makes your car could fail, no way you would invest money into their products.

Oh ya, as for letting them fail. I am actually from detroit so i know the full extent of the auto industry, If even one of them failed, it would be like setting of a nuclear bomb in the midwest. And the radiation would spread to all of america. A bunch of IT companys work for the big 3, like hp. So they would lose contracts and lay off people, even people in other states. Dealerships across america would fail. Parts suppliers all across america would fail. It's just gonna be a chain reaction.
Uhm have u been inside a toyota camry or corolla or a honda civic? Cheep cars have cheep interiors, doesnt matter if its american or japanese.