Indio

iTrader: (1)

Please explain why you have a problem with a proposed 14 billion being handed out vs 700 billion already largely spent and unaccounted for that required no pay cuts for anyone, justify the bonuses handed out to 168 managers that range between 162,00 and 4 million dollars over at AIG, a company taxpayers now own 80% of, we are listening.........

Koma

iTrader: (3)

That's like saying someone who chooses to do art deserves to make the same amount of money as someone who chooses to do engineering.

People should know what they're getting into when it comes to making a career decision. Some pay better than others, some are more work than others, etc. A person going into art (not design) know they are not coming out of it making millions.

If a person gets out of high school believing they'll make a good living in the auto industry that's fine but this could happen to anyone. My field of study could tank down the road. Sure it's not really my fault but it doesn't mean I should get a handout because I worked hard all those years. Yes it sucks for those who worked hard but it's a fact of life. It's all controlled by the market itself, blue collar jobs are being phased out of the US. We're becoming less industrious and more technically oriented.
All said I think UAW should take the pay cut, otherwise they get nothing if GM and Chrysler tank and go bankrupt.
I think the bigger question at hand is what they're going to do after everything is said and done. Great you got your money GM, what are you gonna do? I really don't know of a good solution. It's going to affect the economy regardless because GM isn't going to be able to do a 180 even with the money they'll get.

RON430

My answer would be that I never wanted TARP to pass either. Just because it did isn't any reason why now the auto companies deserve their handout. Or that California should be next up to have the rest of the country cover the $41B projected deficit we are going to run in the next eighteen months either.

pingu

This has nothing to do with the $700 billion that was used for the financial firms. If you want to debate that please go to the debate forum. You failed to answer my question or the questions from the other members. You really should just leave this thread to avoid more "union bashing."

ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

I am not the OP but has it even occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, people also have problems with the 700-billion bailout loans and overpaid CEOs/higher managers.

Since Club Lexus is a forum that focuses on CARS (yes, that thing with 4 wheels...), so we intend to focus our discussions to things that's within the auto industry.

RON430

Like pingu and ffpower, the only reason for this thread here in Car Chat should be to look at it from the Car side. We have threads in the Debate Forum, and somewhat greater latitude, to get into the non auto issues there.

rdgdawg

Ummmm.... a little education... most weren't even watching or aware of it but it's already over $3 TRILLION handed by Darth and Hannibal (Bernake and Paulson) with NO OVERSIGHT at all other than the $700 billion. This was for the banks to pump back in so consumers could go BUY cars, retail items, food, homes, etc... except the banks hoarded it all and started buying each other instead. The Big 3 are bleeding dollars and are not producing viable products. You want to pay for that????

Btw, the gov't now owns Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which is constitutionally illegal AND that note ($25 billion) is due in 2 years at 8.5%... how come you're not screaming about that???

I've got nothing against union workers, it's what the unions do in strangling the companies. After Wall St and the financial firms got their money, OF COURSE the scrutiny on auto is more harsh... because it's PRODUCT, NOT liquid capital for Joe and Susie Sixpack to feed their family. As I think Ron430 stated, how can you... no wait, your kids, expect repayment on these loans when it would take 20 years MINIMUM with PERFECT economic factors at play all the time.

THAT is the reality... NOT hating my fellow HARD-WORKING American worker

Semi-hijacked thread, my apology!!!

Indio

iTrader: (1)

I have read every post in this thread and if you listen to the feelings here about American cars why would you think people who feel this way would buy one? Drive what you like that's not my point, many say they are paying UAW salaries with taxpayer funds, really? The automakers have been around for 100 years and largely built the middle class in this country, with the exception of Chrysler 30 years ago there have been no bailouts I know of, I would agree with your free market argument if the pay window had not been opened for everyone else, I would love to hear whether you think it's ok to be Socialists over the weekend and rescue banks and investment firms but not automakers, I'm against it all but do not support double standards.

RON430

If you want to get into the non auto bailout related government bailouts, take it to the Debate Forum. If you watched the House and Senate hearings when Gettelfinger, Wagoner, Nardelli, and Mulally testified, they were asked by Senator Kanjorski what they would use the bailout money for. The answer was operating expenses. Not debt reduction, not product development, not taxes. They would use it to pay vendors, utility bills, and salaries. Now unless I misunderstood those answers, and I paid pretty close attention, than it is not my opinion that my taxpayer dollars, or more appropriately taxpayer loans as the Feds are bankrupt as well, will be going to pay UAW salaries and benefits for both current and retired UAW members.

As for your first question, I realize it ends in a question mark but it really doesn't seem to be a question. As for you loving to hear about opinions on financial bailouts over the weekend I'd love you to go over to the Debate Forum to discuss it. I'm sure those of us who post there would love to have you partake.

FKL

You should open your eyes to see what's going on here. It's like you want to act as if $14 Billion is some huge sum of money. Well watch the effects a collapse of GM will have on disposable income and GDP declines - in the $300+ Billion range. Some people need to look at the facts instead of sticking to republican free market principles, ones which even Cheney and Bush realize aren't going to work with this one. You keep sticking to this tax payer line when your favorite transplant automakers in the South are only there becuase of - you guessed it - taxpayer dollars. Subsidies which none of you want to admit to, subsidies which cost the taxpayers billions of dollars to date, subsidies which have the means to drive down American wages.

How would the German government react if Ford wanted to build a non-union outfit in Wolsfburg? How about the Japanese and an anti-union plant in Nagoya? How would that work? Talk about double standards Only in America...

It's time people approached this potentially cataclysmic situation with intelligent and smart reasoning instead of existing ideology.

ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

Umm... If GFC aren't requesting loans out of MY MONEY (TAX PAYERS' MONEY) then you are right, I shouldn't care. They can pay them $100/hr and I wouldn't give a darn. However that's not going to be the case isn't it? In the bridge loan plan the GFC are going to receive, again, MY MONEY (TAX PAYERS' MONEY) to support their daily operations, which means paying those overpaid UAW workers so why shouldn't I care?

Indio

iTrader: (1)

I 'll assume you have no answer and I accept your cop out.

Dave600hL

Yes I am very interested on your knowledge on how the Japanese Government would react to non union plant in Nagoya? But I suggest you do your homework before you ASSUME to know what another countries government would do. I won't comment on Germany b/c I don't know how the Government would react as I don't have intimate knowlegdge on their laws in regards to foriegn countries like I do in Japan.

Your half baked statements do nothing for your smoke and mirrors argument. Maybe you should think about comenting on something you actually know?

Stage3

iTrader: (3)

I've said it before and I'll say it again... ****** the UAW... They are what's wrong with the auto industry...

spwolf

you can not build non-union plant... if workers want to organize, nobody can stop them.
Point was that foreign makers workers do not want to organize into union, despite countless tries by UAW.