Low Cost Wheels
12-27-08, 06:54 AM
#1
Low Cost Wheels
I wanted to tackle this subject once and for all. Many people on this site feel that if you choose to mod your car with wheels they must be high end wheels. There are lot's of others who have agreed with this idea even if they don't take the time to learn about the wheel industry.
I found this definition for knock-offs: A low-priced imitation of a name-brand product.
Easily, this is clearly seen by the numerous imitation purses and fashions in the clothing and accessory world. WHile there are some wheels that are exact copies of others, many are very similar but usually there is something different about it. Then there is the name brand part of that definition. There are lots of new companies springing up selling high cost wheels but are they name brand? I doubt if anyone would buy a forged Sevas after hearing about their problems. Mercado, AM Forged and many others sells high cost wheels but name brand they are not. It would seem safer to trust a low cost Enkei, a company with a long racing history that has been around over 20 years.
Here's my take on the different wheels:
Forged multipiece - There is nothing like the look of a forged multipiece wheel. They bring out the look of the wheel best. Those of us who know can spot them a mile away. Forging takes the impurities out of the metal so that it can be less dense and therefore lighter. Lightness is important to handling, acceleration and deceleration. Thhese are attributes most important to race car drivers as a half-second improvement can be the difference between winning and losing. Two problems with these wheels. Being less dense makes them prone to knicks and knocks. Second, the cost can be more than some should consider. I've also noticed that some high end wheel makers cut costs when making the wheels. They almost always need refinishing after a year or 2....definitely 3.
Forged 1 piece - To me, this is the best wheel option. In addition to forged strength, not having to rely on human error when assembling the wheels is a plus. Structurally, these will be the stronger than multipiece.
Cast wheels - There are different methods of casting. There is pouring metal into a mold like your pour beer, at an angle. There is injecting metal into a mold. A couple other methods too but I heard that pouring it like beer is the best because it prevents air pockets from getting into the metal, less impurities to make it stronger. I don't know, I'm not a pro. I do know that cast wheels are more dense than forged but that makes them heavier. More density is needed for strength and durability. Since the cast wheel is one sold piece of metal, it is going to be very strong. The extra weight will reduce performance but who on this site races their car so I consider that aspect not very high on my list. It is for some but I suspect that's just bragging rights.
Combination cast and forged wheels - SOme companies use the best of both worlds. Work, Maya, Lowenhart, Mackin have models that are cast face with forged barrels. You get the strength where it's needed most and the lightness where it's needed most.
News flash----all wheels can be bent or broken depending on the impact. However, I see more high end wheels bent or broken than cast. Remember, the wheel is less dense than cast and impacts should be avoided. I have banged cast wheels and they barely looked touched. I have banged forged wheels and got instant curb rash. To put high cost forged wheels on a daily driver makes very little sense. To put high cost wheels on a garage queen seems a little unwise as well. WHy do we do it? We love cars! The high end wheel looks just can't be ignored.
Personally, I don't do this please others. I love to look at my own cars. I do this for me. Yes, I'd have a bank account a mile wide if I didn't like cars but at least I can see where my money went. A vacation is over when it's over. My nice car I see and drive as long as I want to keep it.
Since it is that look that is the main thing with high end wheels, I hate all the comments about this or that wheel being crap or poor quality because it is cast. It's okay to like high end wheels. It's not okay to put down or devalue another car because they made a different choice. Wheel design is one thing. That we can agree with some visual effects as guidelines. But cost should be off limits. People feel bad when you tell them their wheel is crap because it didn't cost a lot. Most of the time it isn't even true.
My wife's car with low cost but proper fitment wheels rides no better or worse than my car with Work Wheels.
I would rather have a quality cast wheel from Enkei, MRR, TSW than an expensive wheel from a company with no history.
All I'm really asking is that when someone posts picks of their pride and joy, that members not say things like this wheel is crap without evidence to support the comments. The wheel being cast is not part of that evidence unless you know something about the casting process used or that people you know have had problems with that wheel. Cost can be relevant but not as a stand alone issue.
I'm also asking that if the car looks good and you want to say that, say it. So many people seem hesitant to say the car looks good because they want to agree with the masses....or the people here that have clout or longevity.
If an experience member says it's good, it's okay to agree....but it's also okay to disagree when they are only talking about their personal preferences.
Everyone can have a different opinion but every opinion should be based on information.
I found this definition for knock-offs: A low-priced imitation of a name-brand product.
Easily, this is clearly seen by the numerous imitation purses and fashions in the clothing and accessory world. WHile there are some wheels that are exact copies of others, many are very similar but usually there is something different about it. Then there is the name brand part of that definition. There are lots of new companies springing up selling high cost wheels but are they name brand? I doubt if anyone would buy a forged Sevas after hearing about their problems. Mercado, AM Forged and many others sells high cost wheels but name brand they are not. It would seem safer to trust a low cost Enkei, a company with a long racing history that has been around over 20 years.
Here's my take on the different wheels:
Forged multipiece - There is nothing like the look of a forged multipiece wheel. They bring out the look of the wheel best. Those of us who know can spot them a mile away. Forging takes the impurities out of the metal so that it can be less dense and therefore lighter. Lightness is important to handling, acceleration and deceleration. Thhese are attributes most important to race car drivers as a half-second improvement can be the difference between winning and losing. Two problems with these wheels. Being less dense makes them prone to knicks and knocks. Second, the cost can be more than some should consider. I've also noticed that some high end wheel makers cut costs when making the wheels. They almost always need refinishing after a year or 2....definitely 3.
Forged 1 piece - To me, this is the best wheel option. In addition to forged strength, not having to rely on human error when assembling the wheels is a plus. Structurally, these will be the stronger than multipiece.
Cast wheels - There are different methods of casting. There is pouring metal into a mold like your pour beer, at an angle. There is injecting metal into a mold. A couple other methods too but I heard that pouring it like beer is the best because it prevents air pockets from getting into the metal, less impurities to make it stronger. I don't know, I'm not a pro. I do know that cast wheels are more dense than forged but that makes them heavier. More density is needed for strength and durability. Since the cast wheel is one sold piece of metal, it is going to be very strong. The extra weight will reduce performance but who on this site races their car so I consider that aspect not very high on my list. It is for some but I suspect that's just bragging rights.
Combination cast and forged wheels - SOme companies use the best of both worlds. Work, Maya, Lowenhart, Mackin have models that are cast face with forged barrels. You get the strength where it's needed most and the lightness where it's needed most.
News flash----all wheels can be bent or broken depending on the impact. However, I see more high end wheels bent or broken than cast. Remember, the wheel is less dense than cast and impacts should be avoided. I have banged cast wheels and they barely looked touched. I have banged forged wheels and got instant curb rash. To put high cost forged wheels on a daily driver makes very little sense. To put high cost wheels on a garage queen seems a little unwise as well. WHy do we do it? We love cars! The high end wheel looks just can't be ignored.
Personally, I don't do this please others. I love to look at my own cars. I do this for me. Yes, I'd have a bank account a mile wide if I didn't like cars but at least I can see where my money went. A vacation is over when it's over. My nice car I see and drive as long as I want to keep it.
Since it is that look that is the main thing with high end wheels, I hate all the comments about this or that wheel being crap or poor quality because it is cast. It's okay to like high end wheels. It's not okay to put down or devalue another car because they made a different choice. Wheel design is one thing. That we can agree with some visual effects as guidelines. But cost should be off limits. People feel bad when you tell them their wheel is crap because it didn't cost a lot. Most of the time it isn't even true.
My wife's car with low cost but proper fitment wheels rides no better or worse than my car with Work Wheels.
I would rather have a quality cast wheel from Enkei, MRR, TSW than an expensive wheel from a company with no history.
All I'm really asking is that when someone posts picks of their pride and joy, that members not say things like this wheel is crap without evidence to support the comments. The wheel being cast is not part of that evidence unless you know something about the casting process used or that people you know have had problems with that wheel. Cost can be relevant but not as a stand alone issue.
I'm also asking that if the car looks good and you want to say that, say it. So many people seem hesitant to say the car looks good because they want to agree with the masses....or the people here that have clout or longevity.
If an experience member says it's good, it's okay to agree....but it's also okay to disagree when they are only talking about their personal preferences.
Everyone can have a different opinion but every opinion should be based on information.
Last edited by Ice350; 12-30-08 at 01:14 PM.
12-29-08, 01:35 AM
#3
Lexus Fanatic
I had a $5300 set of Asanti's on my car that were out of round, had to sent back after causing 12 return visits to the shop, and were ultimately returned. I got a set of cast TSW wheels ( they have been making wheels since I was in high school) for 3300 dollars and have never been happier. I have had cheap cast wheels and nicer cast wheels. The TSW brand is well known and very old relatively. I will admit that the asanti's looked amazing in terms of the details and finish, but that wanst enough to make them ride smoothly
ps I think you have had many views but no responses because your intial message is so damn long. I almost didnt read it as well, but saw your message and figured we will see if we cant get this thread going
ps I think you have had many views but no responses because your intial message is so damn long. I almost didnt read it as well, but saw your message and figured we will see if we cant get this thread going
12-29-08, 05:25 AM
#5
I completely understand. For some reason, wordy posts are not easy to read. It's much easier with a magazine....which is why we need a Lexus Performance Magazine (yeah, back to that subject).
Anyway, I wrote so much because I wanted people to know that cast wheels are not inferior to forged. They are an option. Some forged wheels are crap actually. It's okay to say something is not worthy if you have the evidence.
Too many people say the "that wheel is crap or save your money for better wheels" when they don't know what they are talking about.
Lastly, be considerate when you don't like someone's choice.
This is the short version.
Anyway, I wrote so much because I wanted people to know that cast wheels are not inferior to forged. They are an option. Some forged wheels are crap actually. It's okay to say something is not worthy if you have the evidence.
Too many people say the "that wheel is crap or save your money for better wheels" when they don't know what they are talking about.
Lastly, be considerate when you don't like someone's choice.
This is the short version.
12-29-08, 07:51 AM
#6
Lexus Champion
I think having bent wheels has to do with what profile tires you're running. I've seen a lot of 20-22" wheels which are essentially wrapped with rubberbands. 215 series...
It doesn't matter how wheel your wheel is made, without any rubber, your wheels will bend. That being said, I can appreciate some expensive wheels from a quality MFG. It just goes back to everything in life. People spend their money on what makes them happy.
I always associate expensive wheels with jewelry. It will improve the looks of your car (that's subjective), only those in the know can really appreciate high end wheels, there are real and fake ones on the market.
It doesn't matter how wheel your wheel is made, without any rubber, your wheels will bend. That being said, I can appreciate some expensive wheels from a quality MFG. It just goes back to everything in life. People spend their money on what makes them happy.
I always associate expensive wheels with jewelry. It will improve the looks of your car (that's subjective), only those in the know can really appreciate high end wheels, there are real and fake ones on the market.
12-29-08, 08:52 AM
#7
I think having bent wheels has to do with what profile tires you're running. I've seen a lot of 20-22" wheels which are essentially wrapped with rubberbands. 215 series...
It doesn't matter how wheel your wheel is made, without any rubber, your wheels will bend. That being said, I can appreciate some expensive wheels from a quality MFG. It just goes back to everything in life. People spend their money on what makes them happy.
I always associate expensive wheels with jewelry. It will improve the looks of your car (that's subjective), only those in the know can really appreciate high end wheels, there are real and fake ones on the market.
It doesn't matter how wheel your wheel is made, without any rubber, your wheels will bend. That being said, I can appreciate some expensive wheels from a quality MFG. It just goes back to everything in life. People spend their money on what makes them happy.
I always associate expensive wheels with jewelry. It will improve the looks of your car (that's subjective), only those in the know can really appreciate high end wheels, there are real and fake ones on the market.
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12-29-08, 11:58 AM
#8
Lexus Champion
i agree with your post. i don't like when people automatically think that because asanti's are expensive that they are as good quality or better than work, bbs, rays, etc. they are not equivalent although their prices are.
12-29-08, 05:23 PM
#10
Lexus Test Driver
Great post, I learned some new things. many people forget in this bling-bling culture, that after your tires, your wheels are one of the most importmant safety related items on your car, so if a wheel breaks.. bad things happen. I have also read many articles, on how putting a wheel tire combo that is very heavy, just messes up many things, from accerlating, stopping, handling etc. grassroot motorsports did a comaprison with a miata showing it with the heaviest wheels and the lightest wheels, and everything was so improved, it was a whole different car. The only aftermarket wheels I have had, are some cheap cast ASA rims on my eclipse, and no complaints, they have held up to everything for over four years and still look great. Personally I will only put wheels on my car that have been proven in motorsport, like BBS, oz racing, ssr, eneki, rays etc.. or have some type of safety approval, my ASA's have a TUV from Germany and I know there is a Japanese version, the wheels undergo govermant testing to prove there safety.
12-29-08, 07:19 PM
#11
Lexus Fanatic
I am sticking with my cast wheels for now on. Thats what works for me. I can afford the exspensive stuff but it doesnt roll any different that my TSW's. I just want a nice looking wheel that will not make me miserable
12-29-08, 08:08 PM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Knock-offs SUCK. Period. Before CL edumacated me 
on wheels, I bought my first set b/c
1. I wanted chrome
2. I wanted a wheel with Rivets (Porsche influence)
3. I wanted 5 spokes.
Lo and behold and friend ordered some wheels from this company(which I would find out only sells crap) and I browsed and saw these which I eventually bought. Diablo Racing C-5s (they didn't even change the name).
I really liked them. I don't really remember if I knew about Racing-Hart C-5s first but I do remember they DID NOT come in Chrome (hey I was young, had a cocaine white Lexus, I wanted chrome wheels). This is back in 2001 or so...
I don't remember exactly but a set of 4, 18" x 8.5 wheels was around $1500 dollars. By the time I bought tires and installed them I was at over $2000.
Now I remember when they came, I was so happy, I didn't tell anyone. I just drove up and my people were like "mahn, nice, they are chrome" yadda yadda. I love them, but they don't know diddly about cars. So I'm very happy. For about 1 month.
No joke 1 month.
And quite frankly I'm tired telling this story and trying to TELL PEOPLE DO NOT BUY KNOCK-OFFS.
So here is the list of monkey crap I went though.
1. The first thing is a rivet popped. WTF? So now I got wheels without a rivet.
2. Which became RIVETS that popped out. I looked like an *** clown driving around with wheels with random Rivets where they want to be b/c Diablo Racing ()#$()#90 glued them with ELMERS (#)($ GLUE.
3. The Chrome was peeling. I take CARE of my things. The Chrome is peeling. I was disgusted.
4. The Center caps would come loose. I would have to check them daily and make sure they didn't fly off like a got damn Ninja Star in Traffic and kill someone.
5. MY FIRST WHEEL BENT!
To the point I could not drive it. I don't remember what I hit but it wasn't St. Mountain. I remember being FURIOUS I couldn't hang at the debut of the fast and furious in my GS lol b/c I had a damn spare on.
6. So I order the new wheel. THese bastards now charge me MORE for one wheel since I am not buying a set.
7. Well I was told the tire was messed up b/c the rim went into the tire, so now I had to buy another tire.
8. Finally I am back to 4 wheels. Mind you now I have one wheel with all the rivets and the rest don't have them all. They would pop off like pimples. It was nuts.
9. Well next thing you know, I bent TWO MORE WHEELS.
10. I was so pissed I remember writing this huge e-mail to the company and to Diablo Racing. I got a reply that basically said "we haven't heard of issues before, sorry this happened".
11. I almost forgot to mention that Manaray almost came to my house and beat me with a baseball bat when he saw my pics. One of my mentors was pissed.
I remember the thread where it became a fight (like we do now) between two sides
a-SICK its okay buy what you want
b-SICK you buttmunch what the hell were you thinking you dweeb, go die
12. I actually remember meeting Dave and Krista for the first time downtown and Dave made a comment about my wheels. (lol) I was like "yeah these are going to hell".
To make a long story short I WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER FOREVER EVER
NEVER EVER FOREVER EVER
"Forever ever, EVA EVA"
EVA EVA BUY KNOCK-OFF MONKEY CRAP FOR MY CAR AGAIN.
You have been warned.
on wheels, I bought my first set b/c 1. I wanted chrome
2. I wanted a wheel with Rivets (Porsche influence)
3. I wanted 5 spokes.
Lo and behold and friend ordered some wheels from this company(which I would find out only sells crap) and I browsed and saw these which I eventually bought. Diablo Racing C-5s (they didn't even change the name).
I really liked them. I don't really remember if I knew about Racing-Hart C-5s first but I do remember they DID NOT come in Chrome (hey I was young, had a cocaine white Lexus, I wanted chrome wheels). This is back in 2001 or so...
I don't remember exactly but a set of 4, 18" x 8.5 wheels was around $1500 dollars. By the time I bought tires and installed them I was at over $2000.
Now I remember when they came, I was so happy, I didn't tell anyone. I just drove up and my people were like "mahn, nice, they are chrome" yadda yadda. I love them, but they don't know diddly about cars. So I'm very happy. For about 1 month.
No joke 1 month.
And quite frankly I'm tired telling this story and trying to TELL PEOPLE DO NOT BUY KNOCK-OFFS.
So here is the list of monkey crap I went though.
1. The first thing is a rivet popped. WTF? So now I got wheels without a rivet.
2. Which became RIVETS that popped out. I looked like an *** clown driving around with wheels with random Rivets where they want to be b/c Diablo Racing ()#$()#90 glued them with ELMERS (#)($ GLUE.
3. The Chrome was peeling. I take CARE of my things. The Chrome is peeling. I was disgusted.
4. The Center caps would come loose. I would have to check them daily and make sure they didn't fly off like a got damn Ninja Star in Traffic and kill someone.
5. MY FIRST WHEEL BENT!
To the point I could not drive it. I don't remember what I hit but it wasn't St. Mountain. I remember being FURIOUS I couldn't hang at the debut of the fast and furious in my GS lol b/c I had a damn spare on. 6. So I order the new wheel. THese bastards now charge me MORE for one wheel since I am not buying a set.
7. Well I was told the tire was messed up b/c the rim went into the tire, so now I had to buy another tire.
8. Finally I am back to 4 wheels. Mind you now I have one wheel with all the rivets and the rest don't have them all. They would pop off like pimples. It was nuts.
9. Well next thing you know, I bent TWO MORE WHEELS.
10. I was so pissed I remember writing this huge e-mail to the company and to Diablo Racing. I got a reply that basically said "we haven't heard of issues before, sorry this happened".
11. I almost forgot to mention that Manaray almost came to my house and beat me with a baseball bat when he saw my pics. One of my mentors was pissed.
I remember the thread where it became a fight (like we do now) between two sidesa-SICK its okay buy what you want
b-SICK you buttmunch what the hell were you thinking you dweeb, go die
12. I actually remember meeting Dave and Krista for the first time downtown and Dave made a comment about my wheels. (lol) I was like "yeah these are going to hell".
To make a long story short I WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER FOREVER EVER
NEVER EVER FOREVER EVER
"Forever ever, EVA EVA"
EVA EVA BUY KNOCK-OFF MONKEY CRAP FOR MY CAR AGAIN.
You have been warned.
12-29-08, 08:10 PM
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Oh do add it all up and I spent probably $3500 or so NOT INCLUDING MY VALUABLE TIME spent on those damn knock-offs. At that point you do realize you could buy some VERY VERY good wheels.
You might ask "well SICK did you sent the wheels to hell"????
Yes, these wheels currently reside at my folks house in their backyard as table stands. There is a glass table on them so you can see the wheels. They will remain there for the rest of their miserable lives.
I will be more than happy to take a picture of this table
You might ask "well SICK did you sent the wheels to hell"????
Yes, these wheels currently reside at my folks house in their backyard as table stands. There is a glass table on them so you can see the wheels. They will remain there for the rest of their miserable lives.
I will be more than happy to take a picture of this table
12-29-08, 09:41 PM
#14
Lexus Champion
When I saw "knock off wheels," this is what I was thinking:
Or, maybe old school Cobra or racing wheels... you know, "knock-off" hubs.
But for the record, copies are for pretenders. Genuine articles are for players.
Or, maybe old school Cobra or racing wheels... you know, "knock-off" hubs.
But for the record, copies are for pretenders. Genuine articles are for players.
12-29-08, 10:00 PM
#15
Or these?
It is hard these days though because the market is flooded with knock offs, you almost don't know whats real and original. But like 2002GGPIS3 stated, some of the quality, reputable brand wheels are actually priced very low, sometimes lower than some knock off wheels I've seen
. Most of if not all of reputable companies are actually track proven and have a great reputation.
BTW, this thread reminded me of this
It is hard these days though because the market is flooded with knock offs, you almost don't know whats real and original. But like 2002GGPIS3 stated, some of the quality, reputable brand wheels are actually priced very low, sometimes lower than some knock off wheels I've seen
. Most of if not all of reputable companies are actually track proven and have a great reputation.BTW, this thread reminded me of this