I am done with Car and Driver Magazine
01-03-09, 05:37 PM
#46
I read the long-term tests, too. When I get a car mag, I usually read it cover-to-cover...or at least most of the significant stuff.
In fact, the Four Seasons long-term tests are one good way of verifying, at least on a small scale, what Consumer Reports has to say about a car model's reliability.
In fact, the Four Seasons long-term tests are one good way of verifying, at least on a small scale, what Consumer Reports has to say about a car model's reliability.
As dumb as it sounds, I appreciate my car a little more...
1) After a long day when I don't want to "drive" home. The smooth ride and engine and noise isolation give me my own little world when I'm having a rough time
2) On road trips. A 3800lb car with a seamless transmission and engine and a smooth ride is pretty hard to beat.
3) When friends get in and tell me how much they love the interior or how elegant the exterior is and how well the design has aged.
4) When I slam the gas pedal and feel how liquid smooth the engine is
The first three things don't come across in a week long road test. There have been several times where I have had a crappy day at work and can't wait to get in my car and just enjoy the smooth and supple ride home. It's almost like you have moments where the car is there for you, and you can really appreciate the things it offers moreso than usual. Living with a car is just so different from a test drive and for that reason I place little value on road tests, and rather form my opinions based on the reactions and sentiments of real, long term owners.
01-03-09, 06:38 PM
#47
Lexus Test Driver
lol....I just received my issue yesterday and I was thinking the EXACT same thing. I honestly don't really care for C&D anymore. They are BMW biased to the fullest not to mention Honda biased as well. I enjoy some of their articles but I usually just see the numbers and make my own judgements.
:cool
:cool
01-03-09, 11:40 PM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I am still sick to my stomach that sport compact magazine is dead, but yet we still have to see the likes of Car and Driver magazine. What a damn shame
01-04-09, 12:02 PM
#50
Lexus Test Driver
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I read the long-term tests, too. When I get a car mag, I usually read it cover-to-cover...or at least most of the significant stuff.
In fact, the Four Seasons long-term tests are one good way of verifying, at least on a small scale, what Consumer Reports has to say about a car model's reliability.
In fact, the Four Seasons long-term tests are one good way of verifying, at least on a small scale, what Consumer Reports has to say about a car model's reliability.
01-04-09, 08:30 PM
#51
Lexus Test Driver
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Agree. I dont remember which mag it was, but they recently had a long term test of the LS 460 that was absolutely glowing. Calling it a marvelously built car that is wonderful to drive and easy to enjoy because it's so peaceful and serene. Totally different mentality than a comparison test.
As dumb as it sounds, I appreciate my car a little more...
1) After a long day when I don't want to "drive" home. The smooth ride and engine and noise isolation give me my own little world when I'm having a rough time
2) On road trips. A 3800lb car with a seamless transmission and engine and a smooth ride is pretty hard to beat.
3) When friends get in and tell me how much they love the interior or how elegant the exterior is and how well the design has aged.
4) When I slam the gas pedal and feel how liquid smooth the engine is
As dumb as it sounds, I appreciate my car a little more...
1) After a long day when I don't want to "drive" home. The smooth ride and engine and noise isolation give me my own little world when I'm having a rough time
2) On road trips. A 3800lb car with a seamless transmission and engine and a smooth ride is pretty hard to beat.
3) When friends get in and tell me how much they love the interior or how elegant the exterior is and how well the design has aged.
4) When I slam the gas pedal and feel how liquid smooth the engine is
Yes, but the competition offers all of the above points. The S-Class, 7Series, A8 all are "comfortable cars" with "seamless" engines and transmissions. The Lexus LS is an unquestionable good car, but does it outscore the competition? Only on the reliability and pricing standpoint. In nearly every other category (Driving feel, innovative technology, design, panche, performance, etc.), it falls short. Most reviews of the LS have commented on it's "disconnected" and floaty feel on the road, not unlike most Lexus models relative to the competition. There's nothing wrong with Toyota tuning most of their cars towards comfort, but in this class, the car should offer both performance and comfort. It doesn't seamlessly give you both like the German competition is able to.
01-04-09, 09:16 PM
#52
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
" Dispatch"????????? What a joke. The more I think about it the more pissed off I get. For decades I always assumed that the info coming from my magazines was accurate and honest. They are ( or are supposed to be) auto authorities. They are teaching the future enthusiasts and fans. They have a responsibility.
01-04-09, 09:32 PM
#54
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
01-04-09, 10:58 PM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
Yes, but the competition offers all of the above points. The S-Class, 7Series, A8 all are "comfortable cars" with "seamless" engines and transmissions. The Lexus LS is an unquestionable good car, but does it outscore the competition? Only on the reliability and pricing standpoint. In nearly every other category (Driving feel, innovative technology, design, panche, performance, etc.), it falls short. Most reviews of the LS have commented on it's "disconnected" and floaty feel on the road, not unlike most Lexus models relative to the competition. There's nothing wrong with Toyota tuning most of their cars towards comfort, but in this class, the car should offer both performance and comfort. It doesn't seamlessly give you both like the German competition is able to.
The A8, BTW, is noticeably stiffer than the LS460 on a bumpy road, with, of course, better handling. The Mercedes S-Class (non-AMG version) has what is perhaps the best combination of handling and silky-smooth ride; BMW and Mercedes engineers are noted for their good ride/handling capabilities, and doing a good job on both.
As far as inexpensive cars go, the Hyundai Elantra and Toyota Corolla do a generally good job on ride comfort, but marginal on handling. Most other small cars are notably stiffer-riding.
It can also be argued that many car magazines, especially "enthusiast" ones, place too much emphasis on handling, and tend to neglect the benefits of a comfortable ride. Automakers have responded to that pressure by making most of their newer products with more responsive handling, and as a result, traditional ride comfort is pretty much a thing of the past, though some Hyundais and Buicks still hold on to some of it.
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-04-09 at 11:02 PM.
01-04-09, 11:55 PM
#56
Out of Warranty
Close, Lil, but no cigar.......that's not quite so. It is true that the cars they have for comparisons, first drives, and road tests are usually kept only a few days, or a week at most, but that's not true in a number of cases. On the long-term/Four Seasons tests, they typically keep a vehicle for 50,000 miles for long-term durability/wear tests, and on those cars, they usually have to deal with the closest dealership (or the dealership of their choice) just like the average customer would. And they often have gripes with how the local dealerships treat them or charge them for warranty work or routine service....the fact that they are part of the auto press often makes no difference.
On the long-trip road tests, (where they drive the SUV's up to the Arctic Circle, for instance, or down the Baja Peninisula), they often have to rely on the local service, too, just like you or I would.
On the long-trip road tests, (where they drive the SUV's up to the Arctic Circle, for instance, or down the Baja Peninisula), they often have to rely on the local service, too, just like you or I would.
________________
Back in the late '60's, when muscle cars adorned the cover of every car magazine, it was common for manufacturers to sponsor press junkets to give auto writers an opportunity to test the hottest products in the stable. There were dozens of stories of one "journalist" (read - nine-year-old with a typewriter) after another destroying a car on the skidpad or track. Several GTO's succumbed to "press day" as they were punished horribly by writers who let youthful enthusiasm rather than any specific driving skill overcome good sense. The trail of smoked transmissions, clutches, rear ends and brakes bore testimony to the level of foolishness that prevailed as the writers rat-raced each other on the track and held power-sliding competitions on the skidpad. It was sort of like being turned loose with a hyper-powerful rental car - hey, it wasn't YOURS!
It wasn't the automotive carnage that finally stopped the "press day", but the negative publicity it generated. Most readers didn't understand (and few writers were willing to admit) the torture that could be wreaked on a piece of machinery in ignorant if enthusiastic hands. Better that a car be carefully chosen and put through the most rigorous "dealer prep" on the planet, before being delivered to a auto writer. Manufacturers benefit by making the best impression possible on the reviewer, not by handing him some heavily-thrashed wreck for his comment.
___________________
As far as making broad statements about any manufacturer's engineering and manufacturing goodness is concerned, an automobile represents a collection of compromises. Even the luxury marques, while offering a quality and precision that far surpasses what you might find in a less elegant showroom, must make a number of choices related to performance, tactile feel, and the ever-popular ride/handling compromise. There are not necessarily any wrong choices here; however the selections must be made according to the company's evaluation of its target market.
Among the mass-marketed luxury makes widely available in the US, there are Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus. Audi may slip in there somewhere if your set the "mass market" bar pretty low. If you look at the German automotive products, it is clear that Mercedes is being sold to a more mature market segment, while BMW is somewhat more youthful in its appeal. Lexus wisely split the market, edging more toward the luxury rather than the performance end of the spectrum.
Obviously there are models within each marque that cross over into a competitor's territory, making any claim of superiority a very subjective one. It comes down to individual choice. Where do you stand along that spectrum that runs from Rolls Royce to Ferrari? What represents the better satisfaction of your automotive lust? Quality, comfort, engineering, precision, power, handling, or top speed? Factor in styling, brand image, and a number of other subjective qualities or perceptions, and you have a range of automobiles that can appeal to the broadest range of buyers. Isn't that what it's all about? There is no one car that is "superior" - just possibly a better choice for one highly subjective individual.
01-05-09, 12:08 AM
#57
Lexus Fanatic
Considering the stakes, don't you imagine that the first dealer or service rep who failed to please the magazine's entourage would be transferred to the manufacturer's Terlingua office - if not shot on the spot? Those reviews can represent hundreds, if not thousands of sales, and not even the most arrogant car company can afford bad press. These are not average customers - they speak directly to over one and one third million paid subscribers every month, not to mention the website hits, TV exposure, and collateral publicity that comes with the release of their "Top Ten" lists. Only the most foolish automaker would fail to please them.
________________
________________
Car and Driver magazine, for instance, is in Ann Arbor, MI.....a state, not surprisingly, heavily biased in its number of dealerships towards American-nameplate vehicles. Finding dealerships to service foreign-nameplates can take some hunting. I can remember the complaints that C&D had with the unreliablity of one of their test Jaguars, for instance, and the less-than-perfect repairs that they got from the local Jag dealer......the next Jag shop was simply too far away to use convienently. There are numerous other examples, but I picked this one because it is still fresh on my memory.
And, as far as "not average" customers goes, that can be also said of many of us here as well at CL.......we're car guys (including you and me) who know a little more about an automobile than the average Joe who just puts gas in his car and drives.
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-05-09 at 12:16 AM.
01-05-09, 12:28 AM
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Considering the stakes, don't you imagine that the first dealer or service rep who failed to please the magazine's entourage would be transferred to the manufacturer's Terlingua office - if not shot on the spot? Those reviews can represent hundreds, if not thousands of sales, and not even the most arrogant car company can afford bad press. These are not average customers - they speak directly to over one and one third million paid subscribers every month, not to mention the website hits, TV exposure, and collateral publicity that comes with the release of their "Top Ten" lists. Only the most foolish automaker would fail to please them.
________________
Back in the late '60's, when muscle cars adorned the cover of every car magazine, it was common for manufacturers to sponsor press junkets to give auto writers an opportunity to test the hottest products in the stable. There were dozens of stories of one "journalist" (read - nine-year-old with a typewriter) after another destroying a car on the skidpad or track. Several GTO's succumbed to "press day" as they were punished horribly by writers who let youthful enthusiasm rather than any specific driving skill overcome good sense. The trail of smoked transmissions, clutches, rear ends and brakes bore testimony to the level of foolishness that prevailed as the writers rat-raced each other on the track and held power-sliding competitions on the skidpad. It was sort of like being turned loose with a hyper-powerful rental car - hey, it wasn't YOURS!
It wasn't the automotive carnage that finally stopped the "press day", but the negative publicity it generated. Most readers didn't understand (and few writers were willing to admit) the torture that could be wreaked on a piece of machinery in ignorant if enthusiastic hands. Better that a car be carefully chosen and put through the most rigorous "dealer prep" on the planet, before being delivered to a auto writer. Manufacturers benefit by making the best impression possible on the reviewer, not by handing him some heavily-thrashed wreck for his comment.
___________________
As far as making broad statements about any manufacturer's engineering and manufacturing goodness is concerned, an automobile represents a collection of compromises. Even the luxury marques, while offering a quality and precision that far surpasses what you might find in a less elegant showroom, must make a number of choices related to performance, tactile feel, and the ever-popular ride/handling compromise. There are not necessarily any wrong choices here; however the selections must be made according to the company's evaluation of its target market.
Among the mass-marketed luxury makes widely available in the US, there are Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus. Audi may slip in there somewhere if your set the "mass market" bar pretty low. If you look at the German automotive products, it is clear that Mercedes is being sold to a more mature market segment, while BMW is somewhat more youthful in its appeal. Lexus wisely split the market, edging more toward the luxury rather than the performance end of the spectrum.
Obviously there are models within each marque that cross over into a competitor's territory, making any claim of superiority a very subjective one. It comes down to individual choice. Where do you stand along that spectrum that runs from Rolls Royce to Ferrari? What represents the better satisfaction of your automotive lust? Quality, comfort, engineering, precision, power, handling, or top speed? Factor in styling, brand image, and a number of other subjective qualities or perceptions, and you have a range of automobiles that can appeal to the broadest range of buyers. Isn't that what it's all about? There is no one car that is "superior" - just possibly a better choice for one highly subjective individual.
________________
Back in the late '60's, when muscle cars adorned the cover of every car magazine, it was common for manufacturers to sponsor press junkets to give auto writers an opportunity to test the hottest products in the stable. There were dozens of stories of one "journalist" (read - nine-year-old with a typewriter) after another destroying a car on the skidpad or track. Several GTO's succumbed to "press day" as they were punished horribly by writers who let youthful enthusiasm rather than any specific driving skill overcome good sense. The trail of smoked transmissions, clutches, rear ends and brakes bore testimony to the level of foolishness that prevailed as the writers rat-raced each other on the track and held power-sliding competitions on the skidpad. It was sort of like being turned loose with a hyper-powerful rental car - hey, it wasn't YOURS!
It wasn't the automotive carnage that finally stopped the "press day", but the negative publicity it generated. Most readers didn't understand (and few writers were willing to admit) the torture that could be wreaked on a piece of machinery in ignorant if enthusiastic hands. Better that a car be carefully chosen and put through the most rigorous "dealer prep" on the planet, before being delivered to a auto writer. Manufacturers benefit by making the best impression possible on the reviewer, not by handing him some heavily-thrashed wreck for his comment.
___________________
As far as making broad statements about any manufacturer's engineering and manufacturing goodness is concerned, an automobile represents a collection of compromises. Even the luxury marques, while offering a quality and precision that far surpasses what you might find in a less elegant showroom, must make a number of choices related to performance, tactile feel, and the ever-popular ride/handling compromise. There are not necessarily any wrong choices here; however the selections must be made according to the company's evaluation of its target market.
Among the mass-marketed luxury makes widely available in the US, there are Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus. Audi may slip in there somewhere if your set the "mass market" bar pretty low. If you look at the German automotive products, it is clear that Mercedes is being sold to a more mature market segment, while BMW is somewhat more youthful in its appeal. Lexus wisely split the market, edging more toward the luxury rather than the performance end of the spectrum.
Obviously there are models within each marque that cross over into a competitor's territory, making any claim of superiority a very subjective one. It comes down to individual choice. Where do you stand along that spectrum that runs from Rolls Royce to Ferrari? What represents the better satisfaction of your automotive lust? Quality, comfort, engineering, precision, power, handling, or top speed? Factor in styling, brand image, and a number of other subjective qualities or perceptions, and you have a range of automobiles that can appeal to the broadest range of buyers. Isn't that what it's all about? There is no one car that is "superior" - just possibly a better choice for one highly subjective individual.
That is why SPORTS CAR INTERNATIONAL was so good and I mentioned it here to EVERYONE to buy. Their only MAJOR advertisor was Lotus. They gave 2 craps about sucking anyones shlong and gave it how it was. BUY THE OLD ISSUES!!!
Now they are gone and we have to live with magazine crap.
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