AMG Boss: "HorsePower War is Over"
01-14-09, 03:56 PM
#17
Did you show her the Corolla S and XRS models? The XRS has the high-RPM VVTi-four found in the former Celica GT and Matrix XRS. It resoonds pretty good at high RPM but doesn't have much low-RPM torque.
Agreed, Henry, but more than just money and affordability is going to be at stake in the future. Traffic congestion, taxes, new speed limits (mostly in Europe), "user" fees, higher fuel prices, emissions, (possible) new laws regulating power and types of fuel used, alternate fuels, laws governing traffic flow during rush hours......a lot of things are going to affect how we drive in the future (some things we can't even plan for now), not just how much we can afford out our pockets or how much HP we want under the hood.
Also, on the brake/tire/maintenance issues.......I wasn't talking about just routine service and tires, brake pads, shocks, etc...being replaced from normal driving, but the premature wear (and replacement needs) that come from aggressive driving, particularly drifting....that will ruin a set of tires in a hurry. Replacing a set of V or Z-rated high-performance tires (which don't normally last long to start with because of the soft tread compounds) can run into some real money.
But, as for the future, don't get me wrong.....it won't be THAT bad. There will still be a place for the private car....and even some of what you would call "fun" private cars. It just is going to be somewhat more restrictive then in the past, though....the days of unlimited driving and HP are coming to a close.
Agreed, Henry, but more than just money and affordability is going to be at stake in the future. Traffic congestion, taxes, new speed limits (mostly in Europe), "user" fees, higher fuel prices, emissions, (possible) new laws regulating power and types of fuel used, alternate fuels, laws governing traffic flow during rush hours......a lot of things are going to affect how we drive in the future (some things we can't even plan for now), not just how much we can afford out our pockets or how much HP we want under the hood.
Also, on the brake/tire/maintenance issues.......I wasn't talking about just routine service and tires, brake pads, shocks, etc...being replaced from normal driving, but the premature wear (and replacement needs) that come from aggressive driving, particularly drifting....that will ruin a set of tires in a hurry. Replacing a set of V or Z-rated high-performance tires (which don't normally last long to start with because of the soft tread compounds) can run into some real money.
But, as for the future, don't get me wrong.....it won't be THAT bad. There will still be a place for the private car....and even some of what you would call "fun" private cars. It just is going to be somewhat more restrictive then in the past, though....the days of unlimited driving and HP are coming to a close.
yes, future laws and limitations, let them dictate what manufacturers are making cars. if i get a car today and 2 years from now on they have 3x stricter emission laws, i am pretty sure my car won't be affected, otherwise manufacturer or government can feel free to buy back my cars. when i buy cars i do some predictions, maybe thinking about how much more i would pay for gas, etc... but that's about it.
premature wear and what now are what i was referring too. someone gets an m3 and runs hard, expect to get new tires much sooner. if he can't afford new tires and whine about how fast the tires wear out, he shouldn't have gotten the car in the first place.
01-14-09, 04:33 PM
#18
Lexus Champion
I don't think this is really that big of news. MB will continue to make their cars fast and fun to drive just in a different way. BMW has already announced that they'll be going to a TT V6 in the M3 (something that infuriates M traditionalists btw...lol
). MB will make similar changes that still allows their cars to be at the top of the class.
Going to miss the roar's of the big motors though.
). MB will make similar changes that still allows their cars to be at the top of the class. Going to miss the roar's of the big motors though.
01-14-09, 04:34 PM
#19
Finally, its about time.... I would rather have a lighter car than some brute with a ton of horsepower but weighing over two tons. Maybe I will consider a AMG in the future once I am out of college if reliability ratings go up a bit.
01-14-09, 06:36 PM
#20
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Its clear AMG WON the war and beat everyone to a bloody pulp. THey have by far the most vast and amazing line of higher peformance cars around. From the van R63 to the incredible SL Black Series. They also look amazing and have sold more but remained special.
No one else could begin to keep up, not BMW, not Audi and surely not LExus. Even Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari got slapped.
Lets see what they come up with next.
No one else could begin to keep up, not BMW, not Audi and surely not LExus. Even Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari got slapped.
Lets see what they come up with next.
01-14-09, 06:44 PM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
Are you saying that Mercedes "won" just because they put more HP/torque into their high-performance cars that other manufacturers did? If Mercedes really "won" a so-called HP war, then they probably wouldn't have plans to be scaling back HP/torque levels....they would keep on doing what they have been doing. This may turn out to be a case where the other manufacturers were correct to start with. And take Acura, for instance. We see (and hear) a lot of complaints about that company not developing a V8 and RWD for their upmarket cars.....but future events may show that Acura was correct all along.And take the late 60's, for instance.....that's when I grew up and first started driving. THAT (trust me) was an age of ever-increasing HP/Torque, among the American muscle-car manufacturers, if ever there was one. Bang!......just like that, emissions controls, safety regulations, and high gas prices/long as lines hit in the early 70's, and many cars went from being tire-burners to slug-mobiles almost overnight. In that atmosphere, NOBODY won. All of the auto companies lost.
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-14-09 at 06:56 PM.
01-14-09, 06:48 PM
#22
Lexus Fanatic
IMHO, the horsepower war is not going away, it will just change some. The curve of horsepower gain year over year will be less steep. The high-rollers still need their toys and as long as gas in the US stays under $5.00/gallon, they still wanna have fun.
01-14-09, 09:46 PM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
Its clear AMG WON the war and beat everyone to a bloody pulp. THey have by far the most vast and amazing line of higher peformance cars around. From the van R63 to the incredible SL Black Series. They also look amazing and have sold more but remained special.
No one else could begin to keep up, not BMW, not Audi and surely not LExus. Even Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari got slapped.
Lets see what they come up with next.
No one else could begin to keep up, not BMW, not Audi and surely not LExus. Even Lambo, Porsche, Ferrari got slapped.
Lets see what they come up with next.
01-14-09, 09:57 PM
#24
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Posts: n/a
Yes, but how would you define "victory" here? Are you saying that Mercedes "won" just because they put more HP/torque into their high-performance cars that other manufacturers did? If Mercedes really "won" a so-called HP war, then they probably wouldn't have plans to be scaling back HP/torque levels....they would keep on doing what they have been doing. This may turn out to be a case where the other manufacturers were correct to start with. And take Acura, for instance. We see (and hear) a lot of complaints about that company not developing a V8 and RWD for their upmarket cars.....but future events may show that Acura was correct all along.
And take the late 60's, for instance.....that's when I grew up and first started driving. THAT (trust me) was an age of ever-increasing HP/Torque, among the American muscle-car manufacturers, if ever there was one. Bang!......just like that, emissions controls, safety regulations, and high gas prices/long as lines hit in the early 70's, and many cars went from being tire-burners to slug-mobiles almost overnight. In that atmosphere, NOBODY won. All of the auto companies lost.
Are you saying that Mercedes "won" just because they put more HP/torque into their high-performance cars that other manufacturers did? If Mercedes really "won" a so-called HP war, then they probably wouldn't have plans to be scaling back HP/torque levels....they would keep on doing what they have been doing. This may turn out to be a case where the other manufacturers were correct to start with. And take Acura, for instance. We see (and hear) a lot of complaints about that company not developing a V8 and RWD for their upmarket cars.....but future events may show that Acura was correct all along.And take the late 60's, for instance.....that's when I grew up and first started driving. THAT (trust me) was an age of ever-increasing HP/Torque, among the American muscle-car manufacturers, if ever there was one. Bang!......just like that, emissions controls, safety regulations, and high gas prices/long as lines hit in the early 70's, and many cars went from being tire-burners to slug-mobiles almost overnight. In that atmosphere, NOBODY won. All of the auto companies lost.
What makes Acura even more laughable and pitiful is they are NOT EVEN EFFICIENT or class leading in efficiency. They are mid pack or to the rear. What the hell is the point of NOT offering V-8s and bigger if your not even fuel efficient? Its pathetic.
This was very evident when cars initially came along and were raced to prove who was better in Europe. Who was the fastest or the biggest was a big deal and helped sell cars.
Lexus IMO reignited the war with none other but the V-8300HP GS 400. It was advertised as the "fastest accelerating automatic sedan" which it was. Next thing u know the E55 came, the XJR, new M5 and the Europeans ensured that would never happen again.
I truly hope that AMG and others learn to do MORE with LESS. For instance the Lexus 4.6 Makes 380hp in the LS. It takes Benz 5.5 liters to make 2 more hp, 382. It takes BMW twin turbos to 400hp with their V-8.
Germans have taken the American BIG ENGINE mentality in small cars to another level.
As one thats held Drag events, its AMAZING to see AMG cars and other luxury cars lay waste to supposed faster sports cars and muscle cars. Its AMAZING!!
This is what is appealing about Lexus hybrids. They are the new age muscle car. They are fuel efficient compared to a petrol only engine that is bigger with as much power and comparable performance.
I can only tip my hat to AMG, they really REALLY did a tremendous job with their product and simply overpowered the competition and EVERYONE.
01-14-09, 10:08 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
01-14-09, 10:12 PM
#27
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The GS and IS had the most HP in class and were fastest in class. Infiniti has never had the fastest car in class anything.
Acura is a complete lol stating "the TL is the most powerful Acura ever" at a paltry 305 hp or so and its SLOWER than the Accord and cars like the Altima, Camry, etc.
AMG on the other hand has the most power AND is fastest in class.
01-14-09, 10:19 PM
#28
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Oh I don't consider Mercedes won by just simply having a bigger engine, they won by achieving something, not just HP/Torque, that other manufactures can not accomplish. There are quite a few things and I hope I can put my thoughts in a manner that won't be random and confusing.
First off is the going green trend. As you've already know MB has a line up of Blue Tech cars coming up which gets amazing mpgs compared to other cars with size/weight, and that technology is a huge advancement in the auto world. Sure Honda is probably the most efficient car make out there and they deserve it because they are efficient from the Top guy down to the workers assembling the cars. But they lack a lot of things that makes them desirable other than a fuel efficient car to drive around. I've never heard of a young kid going to college studying to be a doctor and hoping one day drive a Honda/Acura as a dream car...never.
Second one is what I value most and that's why I own a Benz which is safety. In the market where the HP wars are raging they managed to keep their foundmantals while delivering powerful cars that rival anything from Ferrari, Porsche, BMW etc. I took a glimps at my car mags and noticed the lastest car from Lamborghini LP560, amazing performance V10 with all kinds of data that beats the competition and I saw its weight, 3500 lbs. Porsche latest GT2 weights in at a mere 3265 lbs. Sure light weight materials is the key but you can only go so far without sacrificing safety.
I saw a lot of posts here on crashes where Ferrari, exotic sports cars would get riped in half in many pieces in a wreck and the driver being carried away in an ambulance barely suriving. Then I go over to MB forums and see a different side of view where owners would post about their incident take the pics with their camera phone and walk away shaking but not seriously hurt. When you take a look at the wreckage the occupant space is untouched often with the doors still openable then people would realize where the extra weight went and it makes sense.
I consider Mercedes came out victorious because they manage to keep up with the jones if you can say on the HP wars and still provide a line up of fuel efficient cars for the people that want to go green, take a look at smart...another first in America where no one has a competitive answer yet, and then a full line up of high performance cars that doesn't sacrifice safety. I can seriously say no other auto manufacture can make this kind of claim.
First off is the going green trend. As you've already know MB has a line up of Blue Tech cars coming up which gets amazing mpgs compared to other cars with size/weight, and that technology is a huge advancement in the auto world. Sure Honda is probably the most efficient car make out there and they deserve it because they are efficient from the Top guy down to the workers assembling the cars. But they lack a lot of things that makes them desirable other than a fuel efficient car to drive around. I've never heard of a young kid going to college studying to be a doctor and hoping one day drive a Honda/Acura as a dream car...never.
Second one is what I value most and that's why I own a Benz which is safety. In the market where the HP wars are raging they managed to keep their foundmantals while delivering powerful cars that rival anything from Ferrari, Porsche, BMW etc. I took a glimps at my car mags and noticed the lastest car from Lamborghini LP560, amazing performance V10 with all kinds of data that beats the competition and I saw its weight, 3500 lbs. Porsche latest GT2 weights in at a mere 3265 lbs. Sure light weight materials is the key but you can only go so far without sacrificing safety.
I saw a lot of posts here on crashes where Ferrari, exotic sports cars would get riped in half in many pieces in a wreck and the driver being carried away in an ambulance barely suriving. Then I go over to MB forums and see a different side of view where owners would post about their incident take the pics with their camera phone and walk away shaking but not seriously hurt. When you take a look at the wreckage the occupant space is untouched often with the doors still openable then people would realize where the extra weight went and it makes sense.
I consider Mercedes came out victorious because they manage to keep up with the jones if you can say on the HP wars and still provide a line up of fuel efficient cars for the people that want to go green, take a look at smart...another first in America where no one has a competitive answer yet, and then a full line up of high performance cars that doesn't sacrifice safety. I can seriously say no other auto manufacture can make this kind of claim.
Yes, but how would you define "victory" here? Are you saying that Mercedes "won" just because they put more HP/torque into their high-performance cars that other manufacturers did? If Mercedes really "won" a so-called HP war, then they probably wouldn't have plans to be scaling back HP/torque levels....they would keep on doing what they have been doing. This may turn out to be a case where the other manufacturers were correct to start with. And take Acura, for instance. We see (and hear) a lot of complaints about that company not developing a V8 and RWD for their upmarket cars.....but future events may show that Acura was correct all along.
And take the late 60's, for instance.....that's when I grew up and first started driving. THAT (trust me) was an age of ever-increasing HP/Torque, among the American muscle-car manufacturers, if ever there was one. Bang!......just like that, emissions controls, safety regulations, and high gas prices/long as lines hit in the early 70's, and many cars went from being tire-burners to slug-mobiles almost overnight. In that atmosphere, NOBODY won. All of the auto companies lost.
Are you saying that Mercedes "won" just because they put more HP/torque into their high-performance cars that other manufacturers did? If Mercedes really "won" a so-called HP war, then they probably wouldn't have plans to be scaling back HP/torque levels....they would keep on doing what they have been doing. This may turn out to be a case where the other manufacturers were correct to start with. And take Acura, for instance. We see (and hear) a lot of complaints about that company not developing a V8 and RWD for their upmarket cars.....but future events may show that Acura was correct all along.And take the late 60's, for instance.....that's when I grew up and first started driving. THAT (trust me) was an age of ever-increasing HP/Torque, among the American muscle-car manufacturers, if ever there was one. Bang!......just like that, emissions controls, safety regulations, and high gas prices/long as lines hit in the early 70's, and many cars went from being tire-burners to slug-mobiles almost overnight. In that atmosphere, NOBODY won. All of the auto companies lost.
Last edited by Stormwind; 01-14-09 at 10:22 PM.
01-14-09, 10:28 PM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Oh I don't consider Mercedes won by just simply having a bigger engine, they won by achieving something, not just HP/Torque, that other manufactures can not accomplish. There are quite a few things and I hope I can put my thoughts in a manner that won't be random and confusing.
First off is the going green trend. As you've already know MB has a line up of Blue Tech cars coming up which gets amazing mpgs compared to other cars with size/weight, and that technology is a huge advancement in the auto world. Sure Honda is probably the most efficient car make out there and they deserve it because they are efficient from the Top guy down to the workers assembling the cars. But they lack a lot of things that makes them desirable other than a fuel efficient car to drive around. I've never heard of a young kid going to college studying to be a doctor and hoping one day drive a Honda/Acura as a dream car...never.
Second one is what I value most and that's why I own a Benz which is safety. In the market where the HP wars are raging they managed to keep their foundmantals while delivering powerful cars that rival anything from Ferrari, Porsche, BMW etc. I took a glimps at my car mags and noticed the lastest car from Lamborghini LP560, amazing performance V10 with all kinds of data that beats the competition and I saw its weight, 3500 lbs. Porsche latest GT2 weights in at a mere 3265 lbs. Sure light weight materials is the key but you can only go so far without sacrificing safety.
I saw a lot of posts here on crashes where Ferrari, exotic sports cars would get riped in half in many pieces in a wreck and the driver being carried away in an ambulance barely suriving. Then I go over to MB forums and see a different side of view where owners would post about their incident take the pics with their camera phone and walk away shaking but not seriously hurt. When you take a look at the wreckage the occupant space is untouched often with the doors still openable then people would realize where the extra weight went and it makes sense.
I consider Mercedes came out victorious because they manage to keep up with the jones if you can say on the HP wars and still provide a line up of fuel efficient cars for the people that want to go green, take a look at smart...another first in America where no one has a competitive answer yet, and then a full line up of high performance cars that doesn't sacrifice safety. I can seriously say no other auto manufacture can make this kind of claim.
First off is the going green trend. As you've already know MB has a line up of Blue Tech cars coming up which gets amazing mpgs compared to other cars with size/weight, and that technology is a huge advancement in the auto world. Sure Honda is probably the most efficient car make out there and they deserve it because they are efficient from the Top guy down to the workers assembling the cars. But they lack a lot of things that makes them desirable other than a fuel efficient car to drive around. I've never heard of a young kid going to college studying to be a doctor and hoping one day drive a Honda/Acura as a dream car...never.
Second one is what I value most and that's why I own a Benz which is safety. In the market where the HP wars are raging they managed to keep their foundmantals while delivering powerful cars that rival anything from Ferrari, Porsche, BMW etc. I took a glimps at my car mags and noticed the lastest car from Lamborghini LP560, amazing performance V10 with all kinds of data that beats the competition and I saw its weight, 3500 lbs. Porsche latest GT2 weights in at a mere 3265 lbs. Sure light weight materials is the key but you can only go so far without sacrificing safety.
I saw a lot of posts here on crashes where Ferrari, exotic sports cars would get riped in half in many pieces in a wreck and the driver being carried away in an ambulance barely suriving. Then I go over to MB forums and see a different side of view where owners would post about their incident take the pics with their camera phone and walk away shaking but not seriously hurt. When you take a look at the wreckage the occupant space is untouched often with the doors still openable then people would realize where the extra weight went and it makes sense.
I consider Mercedes came out victorious because they manage to keep up with the jones if you can say on the HP wars and still provide a line up of fuel efficient cars for the people that want to go green, take a look at smart...another first in America where no one has a competitive answer yet, and then a full line up of high performance cars that doesn't sacrifice safety. I can seriously say no other auto manufacture can make this kind of claim.
1. Toyota is the most efficient and green. Bluetec is barely sold here but does better in Europe.
2. The reason those exotics are shattered is b/c they are designed to b/c of the carbon fiber construction.
I will agree that Benz safety is among the best if not the best around.