The $96,000 Hyundai
02-20-09, 02:40 PM
#106
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genesis is not inferior to GS, E, jaguar XF, STS, M and etc. it doesn't excel at 1 thing, but it's an all around luxo-cruise car. actually no cars come close to being perfect for it's price (loaded $42000)
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...son/index.html
http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercedes...50-review.html
-s550 review
Why you would buy it:
You like your luxo-barges in the large category, fuel prices be damned, and this is about as large as it gets (short of opting for the S550’s corporate cousin, the Maybach.)
Why you wouldn’t:
You are checking out that new Hyundai Genesis that your neighbor, Phil, just parked in his driveway down the block.
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...son/index.html
http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercedes...50-review.html
-s550 review
Why you would buy it:
You like your luxo-barges in the large category, fuel prices be damned, and this is about as large as it gets (short of opting for the S550’s corporate cousin, the Maybach.)
Why you wouldn’t:
You are checking out that new Hyundai Genesis that your neighbor, Phil, just parked in his driveway down the block.
02-20-09, 03:06 PM
#108
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genesis is not inferior to GS, E, jaguar XF, STS, M and etc. it doesn't excel at 1 thing, but it's an all around luxo-cruise car. actually no cars come close to being perfect for it's price (loaded $42000)
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...son/index.html
http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercedes...50-review.html
-s550 review
Why you would buy it:
You like your luxo-barges in the large category, fuel prices be damned, and this is about as large as it gets (short of opting for the S550’s corporate cousin, the Maybach.)
Why you wouldn’t:
You are checking out that new Hyundai Genesis that your neighbor, Phil, just parked in his driveway down the block.
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...son/index.html
http://www.leftlanenews.com/mercedes...50-review.html
-s550 review
Why you would buy it:
You like your luxo-barges in the large category, fuel prices be damned, and this is about as large as it gets (short of opting for the S550’s corporate cousin, the Maybach.)
Why you wouldn’t:
You are checking out that new Hyundai Genesis that your neighbor, Phil, just parked in his driveway down the block.
02-20-09, 03:42 PM
#109
lol only my dad has such enthusiasm for well made korean products like se ri pak (i call her tree trunk legs) and the new genesis.
anyhoo. I can't believe they're gonna bring this to america.
That makes me wonder what they're going to price it at.
They can't make it too low or else they'll **** everyone in korea off but then they can't price it too high or else it has a good chance of suffering the same fate as the phaeton.
the only difference between the Equus and the Phaeton is that America might have a better perception of Hyundai over VW due to PR and marketing
anyhoo. I can't believe they're gonna bring this to america.
That makes me wonder what they're going to price it at.
They can't make it too low or else they'll **** everyone in korea off but then they can't price it too high or else it has a good chance of suffering the same fate as the phaeton.
the only difference between the Equus and the Phaeton is that America might have a better perception of Hyundai over VW due to PR and marketing
Last edited by LexFather; 02-20-09 at 04:53 PM.
02-21-09, 12:04 AM
#110
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3-series: 5,013
C-class: 3,032
A4: 2,058
CTS - 3,418
MKZ - 1,561
ES: 2,971
IS: 2,400
G sedan: 2,609
TL: 2,317
Genesis: 1,056
luxury sedans in Genesis' price range are outselling it by a very wide margin.
The LS460 only sold 150 less units. Perhaps sales will pick up but if they don't then Genesis is a flop.
C-class: 3,032
A4: 2,058
CTS - 3,418
MKZ - 1,561
ES: 2,971
IS: 2,400
G sedan: 2,609
TL: 2,317
Genesis: 1,056
luxury sedans in Genesis' price range are outselling it by a very wide margin.
The LS460 only sold 150 less units. Perhaps sales will pick up but if they don't then Genesis is a flop.
When you look at the sales data for the past two months for cars in its class - the Genesis fares fairly well.
BMW 5-Series: 3,958 | 2,927
Mercedes E-Class: 2,098 | 2,264
Infiniti M: 1,193 | 1,186
Hyundai Genesis: 1,121 | 1,151
Lexus GS: 819 | 721
Audi A6/S6: 758 | 717
Acura RL: 272 | 234
The Genesis is just about on par w/ the M (and that's w/o the benefit of having an AWD version) and is selling substantially better than the GS, A6 and RL.
I don't think you relate Hyundai moving upmarket to VW trying to do the same thing. I'd consider the fact that vwag has a lot more "experience" building super-premium luxury sedans (just look at their brand portfolio). The Phaeton was a shared platform with the Bentley Continental, remember, and it wasn't a complete flop in Europe, just n. America. I just don't think you could compare the two. The Genesis, for instance, is a great automobile, but everybody knows in the back of their minds it's mildly inferior to similarly sized Lexus/Mb/bmw/audi models. The Phaeton was different, it did actually compete, and had a price tag to warrant it.
The problem w/ the Phaeton was the price.
People (particularly in the US) weren't willing to shell out the same $$ that they would to get an S Class, 5 Series or even an A8.
If the Phaeton had undercut its competition by $6-9k, it likely would have done better.
And oh, since the pricetag of the original LS was thousands less than its competition, does that mean that the LS didn't compete (since it didn't have the "price tag"?).
The Genesis, or Rohens as it is called in China, is actually considerably more expensive in China than in the US.
Last edited by YEH; 02-21-09 at 12:07 AM.
02-21-09, 12:17 AM
#111
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Aside from the fact that most of those models have long been established, the Genesis is a larger vehicle and actually competes w/ the larger sedans (5 Series, M35/45, E Class, A6, etc.) in terms of size (most people will not cross-shop say, a 3 Series w/ a much larger vehicle such as the Genesis and vice versa).
When you look at the sales data for the past two months for cars in its class - the Genesis fares fairly well.
BMW 5-Series: 3,958 | 2,927
Mercedes E-Class: 2,098 | 2,264
Infiniti M: 1,193 | 1,186
Hyundai Genesis: 1,121 | 1,151
Lexus GS: 819 | 721
Audi A6/S6: 758 | 717
Acura RL: 272 | 234
The Genesis is just about on par w/ the M (and that's w/o the benefit of having an AWD version) and is selling substantially better than the GS, A6 and RL.
.
When you look at the sales data for the past two months for cars in its class - the Genesis fares fairly well.
BMW 5-Series: 3,958 | 2,927
Mercedes E-Class: 2,098 | 2,264
Infiniti M: 1,193 | 1,186
Hyundai Genesis: 1,121 | 1,151
Lexus GS: 819 | 721
Audi A6/S6: 758 | 717
Acura RL: 272 | 234
The Genesis is just about on par w/ the M (and that's w/o the benefit of having an AWD version) and is selling substantially better than the GS, A6 and RL.
.
There is also a $399 lease rate on the Genesis V-6, which is far lower than any lease any of them will offer.
Not taking away from the Genesis though.
02-21-09, 01:11 AM
#112
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^ Exactly - since there it is a brand new model and doesn't have the track history, it, of course, has to be priced more cheaply than its competitors (just like the original LS).
But still, the fact that it is beating (by a substantial margin) models from Lexus, Audi and Acura (luxury makes) and is holding it's own against a still fairly new M isn't anything to scoff at.
But still, the fact that it is beating (by a substantial margin) models from Lexus, Audi and Acura (luxury makes) and is holding it's own against a still fairly new M isn't anything to scoff at.
02-21-09, 07:47 AM
#113
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everyone knows the RL is a complete failure, you also forgot to mention it went on on sale in late 2004. And the RL came with new technology like SH-AWD, XM traffic, and Intelligent Night Vision. However when Honda released the NSX it did a lot more then just cost less than a Ferrari.
The GS is by far the weakest seller among Lexus's mainstream models primarily because Toyota made a huge error by failing to make any real effort to build a better 5-series or E-class, so setting sales expectations on a poorly selling Lexus isn't particularity meaningful. Go back and compare sales to the ES or LS
The M isn't fairly new, it launched alongside the GS which means its most likely completed 2/3 of its life cycle. You also forgot the Infiniti M starts at $46,615 while the a V8 Genesis maxes out at $42,000. A Toyota Avalon can get that expensive. I would say holding its own against the far more expensive M isn't much of an accomplishment.
And the comparison LS comparison isn't effective. Toyota wasn't aiming at the E-class or 5-series. Toyota aimed at the world's best volume sedans. Toyota had to develop all sorts of new technology for the LS and greatly improve on existing areas to build such a sedan. Lexus did much more than just merely undercut its rivals in terms of pricing they built the world's greatest sedan. And the LS outsells its competitors, not just the weakest models.
So far all Hyundai does is sell for less. Hyundai has brought zero new technology to the Genesis or for that matter the Equus. Hyundai still has no hybrids and still hasn't managed to develop a VGRS steering system, something Lexus had way back in 2002.
Even the GS featured a new direction injection system that remains the most advanced in the marketplace. Hyundai still hasn't figured out how to copy that.
About all they've done is match Toyota engines in hp output while missing their torque figures many years later.
Let me know when Hyundai builds are car that doesn't just undercut their rivals price but set a new standard in the class. Let me know when Hyundai's Elantra beats the Civic, the Sonata beats the Camry, or the Azera beats the Avalon. No shock the Genesis doesn't sell, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury segment they'll need to do more than undercut prices. Until that happens Hyundai remains an inferior nameplate trying to compete in with the world's best.
The GS is by far the weakest seller among Lexus's mainstream models primarily because Toyota made a huge error by failing to make any real effort to build a better 5-series or E-class, so setting sales expectations on a poorly selling Lexus isn't particularity meaningful. Go back and compare sales to the ES or LS
The M isn't fairly new, it launched alongside the GS which means its most likely completed 2/3 of its life cycle. You also forgot the Infiniti M starts at $46,615 while the a V8 Genesis maxes out at $42,000. A Toyota Avalon can get that expensive. I would say holding its own against the far more expensive M isn't much of an accomplishment.
And the comparison LS comparison isn't effective. Toyota wasn't aiming at the E-class or 5-series. Toyota aimed at the world's best volume sedans. Toyota had to develop all sorts of new technology for the LS and greatly improve on existing areas to build such a sedan. Lexus did much more than just merely undercut its rivals in terms of pricing they built the world's greatest sedan. And the LS outsells its competitors, not just the weakest models.
So far all Hyundai does is sell for less. Hyundai has brought zero new technology to the Genesis or for that matter the Equus. Hyundai still has no hybrids and still hasn't managed to develop a VGRS steering system, something Lexus had way back in 2002.
Even the GS featured a new direction injection system that remains the most advanced in the marketplace. Hyundai still hasn't figured out how to copy that.
About all they've done is match Toyota engines in hp output while missing their torque figures many years later.
Let me know when Hyundai builds are car that doesn't just undercut their rivals price but set a new standard in the class. Let me know when Hyundai's Elantra beats the Civic, the Sonata beats the Camry, or the Azera beats the Avalon. No shock the Genesis doesn't sell, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury segment they'll need to do more than undercut prices. Until that happens Hyundai remains an inferior nameplate trying to compete in with the world's best.
Last edited by Mr. Jones; 02-21-09 at 07:53 AM.
02-21-09, 09:12 AM
#114
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When looking at Genesis sales vs. competitive models, I think you really need to compare it with other brand new models, launched around the same time in the same economic conditions and competitive in price. IMO, that would need to include Maxima, TL, MKS etc.
The GS and M35/45 have been out for several years and arguably in need of updating (not sure about Audi A6 etc.). Both are selling as well as they are ever going to and can't be considered new any more.
The GS and M35/45 have been out for several years and arguably in need of updating (not sure about Audi A6 etc.). Both are selling as well as they are ever going to and can't be considered new any more.
02-21-09, 11:37 AM
#115
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everyone knows the RL is a complete failure, you also forgot to mention it went on on sale in late 2004. And the RL came with new technology like SH-AWD, XM traffic, and Intelligent Night Vision. However when Honda released the NSX it did a lot more then just cost less than a Ferrari.
The GS is by far the weakest seller among Lexus's mainstream models primarily because Toyota made a huge error by failing to make any real effort to build a better 5-series or E-class, so setting sales expectations on a poorly selling Lexus isn't particularity meaningful. Go back and compare sales to the ES or LS
The M isn't fairly new, it launched alongside the GS which means its most likely completed 2/3 of its life cycle. You also forgot the Infiniti M starts at $46,615 while the a V8 Genesis maxes out at $42,000. A Toyota Avalon can get that expensive. I would say holding its own against the far more expensive M isn't much of an accomplishment.
And the comparison LS comparison isn't effective. Toyota wasn't aiming at the E-class or 5-series. Toyota aimed at the world's best volume sedans. Toyota had to develop all sorts of new technology for the LS and greatly improve on existing areas to build such a sedan. Lexus did much more than just merely undercut its rivals in terms of pricing they built the world's greatest sedan. And the LS outsells its competitors, not just the weakest models.
So far all Hyundai does is sell for less. Hyundai has brought zero new technology to the Genesis or for that matter the Equus. Hyundai still has no hybrids and still hasn't managed to develop a VGRS steering system, something Lexus had way back in 2002.
Even the GS featured a new direction injection system that remains the most advanced in the marketplace. Hyundai still hasn't figured out how to copy that.
About all they've done is match Toyota engines in hp output while missing their torque figures many years later.
Let me know when Hyundai builds are car that doesn't just undercut their rivals price but set a new standard in the class. Let me know when Hyundai's Elantra beats the Civic, the Sonata beats the Camry, or the Azera beats the Avalon. No shock the Genesis doesn't sell, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury segment they'll need to do more than undercut prices. Until that happens Hyundai remains an inferior nameplate trying to compete in with the world's best.
The GS is by far the weakest seller among Lexus's mainstream models primarily because Toyota made a huge error by failing to make any real effort to build a better 5-series or E-class, so setting sales expectations on a poorly selling Lexus isn't particularity meaningful. Go back and compare sales to the ES or LS
The M isn't fairly new, it launched alongside the GS which means its most likely completed 2/3 of its life cycle. You also forgot the Infiniti M starts at $46,615 while the a V8 Genesis maxes out at $42,000. A Toyota Avalon can get that expensive. I would say holding its own against the far more expensive M isn't much of an accomplishment.
And the comparison LS comparison isn't effective. Toyota wasn't aiming at the E-class or 5-series. Toyota aimed at the world's best volume sedans. Toyota had to develop all sorts of new technology for the LS and greatly improve on existing areas to build such a sedan. Lexus did much more than just merely undercut its rivals in terms of pricing they built the world's greatest sedan. And the LS outsells its competitors, not just the weakest models.
So far all Hyundai does is sell for less. Hyundai has brought zero new technology to the Genesis or for that matter the Equus. Hyundai still has no hybrids and still hasn't managed to develop a VGRS steering system, something Lexus had way back in 2002.
Even the GS featured a new direction injection system that remains the most advanced in the marketplace. Hyundai still hasn't figured out how to copy that.
About all they've done is match Toyota engines in hp output while missing their torque figures many years later.
Let me know when Hyundai builds are car that doesn't just undercut their rivals price but set a new standard in the class. Let me know when Hyundai's Elantra beats the Civic, the Sonata beats the Camry, or the Azera beats the Avalon. No shock the Genesis doesn't sell, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury segment they'll need to do more than undercut prices. Until that happens Hyundai remains an inferior nameplate trying to compete in with the world's best.
1. Acura's RL is really a Honda Legend with badges and came with a couple of new things but no one gave a fig then or now. While the Genesis is all new from the ground up, the RL is a stretched Accord with an old engine and an older tranny. Sorry but the Genesis is much newer than the RL. The Rl shouldn't even be mentioned it doesn't even have a V-8 or RWD.
2. The M35/45 is really a Nissan Fuga with badges didn't come with ANY breakthroughs. Its also FM based and shares tons with Nissans. One of the main reason it sells is its lower price than anyone and lease deals since day one. Its a great car but that is the fact. Seems buyers don't care or don't know it shares tons with Nissan.
3. The GS met sales targets its first 2 years and fell ever since. We mostly agree Lexus could have done better. However the GS 450h is the only of its kind in its class and one of the most technologically advanced cars in the world. It also debuted Lexus "L-Finesse" styling. It now has an 8 speed auto and even semi-analine leather.
Does Hyundai sell for less? Yup. However the Genesis has more HP than any Acura or Infiniti sedan, it has more gears than both until the new INfiniti 7 debuted and it offers a leather dash and they do not.
I do agree that Lexus did try to make the worlds greatest car in the original LS and going forward and Hyundai didn't try to do that. The Genesis however is more than competitive and its price makes some people truly think the "badge" is what makes these cars cost 20grand or more.
I wonder if Honda sold the RL as the Legend and Nissan sold the M35/45 as the Nissan Fuga here in America, would they ask for the same price?
Last edited by LexFather; 02-21-09 at 11:45 AM.
02-21-09, 01:25 PM
#116
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everyone knows the RL is a complete failure, you also forgot to mention it went on on sale in late 2004. And the RL came with new technology like SH-AWD, XM traffic, and Intelligent Night Vision. However when Honda released the NSX it did a lot more then just cost less than a Ferrari.
The GS is by far the weakest seller among Lexus's mainstream models primarily because Toyota made a huge error by failing to make any real effort to build a better 5-series or E-class, so setting sales expectations on a poorly selling Lexus isn't particularity meaningful. Go back and compare sales to the ES or LS
The M isn't fairly new, it launched alongside the GS which means its most likely completed 2/3 of its life cycle. You also forgot the Infiniti M starts at $46,615 while the a V8 Genesis maxes out at $42,000. A Toyota Avalon can get that expensive. I would say holding its own against the far more expensive M isn't much of an accomplishment.
And the comparison LS comparison isn't effective. Toyota wasn't aiming at the E-class or 5-series. Toyota aimed at the world's best volume sedans. Toyota had to develop all sorts of new technology for the LS and greatly improve on existing areas to build such a sedan. Lexus did much more than just merely undercut its rivals in terms of pricing they built the world's greatest sedan. And the LS outsells its competitors, not just the weakest models.
So far all Hyundai does is sell for less. Hyundai has brought zero new technology to the Genesis or for that matter the Equus. Hyundai still has no hybrids and still hasn't managed to develop a VGRS steering system, something Lexus had way back in 2002.
Even the GS featured a new direction injection system that remains the most advanced in the marketplace. Hyundai still hasn't figured out how to copy that.
About all they've done is match Toyota engines in hp output while missing their torque figures many years later.
Let me know when Hyundai builds are car that doesn't just undercut their rivals price but set a new standard in the class. Let me know when Hyundai's Elantra beats the Civic, the Sonata beats the Camry, or the Azera beats the Avalon. No shock the Genesis doesn't sell, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury segment they'll need to do more than undercut prices. Until that happens Hyundai remains an inferior nameplate trying to compete in with the world's best.
The GS is by far the weakest seller among Lexus's mainstream models primarily because Toyota made a huge error by failing to make any real effort to build a better 5-series or E-class, so setting sales expectations on a poorly selling Lexus isn't particularity meaningful. Go back and compare sales to the ES or LS
The M isn't fairly new, it launched alongside the GS which means its most likely completed 2/3 of its life cycle. You also forgot the Infiniti M starts at $46,615 while the a V8 Genesis maxes out at $42,000. A Toyota Avalon can get that expensive. I would say holding its own against the far more expensive M isn't much of an accomplishment.
And the comparison LS comparison isn't effective. Toyota wasn't aiming at the E-class or 5-series. Toyota aimed at the world's best volume sedans. Toyota had to develop all sorts of new technology for the LS and greatly improve on existing areas to build such a sedan. Lexus did much more than just merely undercut its rivals in terms of pricing they built the world's greatest sedan. And the LS outsells its competitors, not just the weakest models.
So far all Hyundai does is sell for less. Hyundai has brought zero new technology to the Genesis or for that matter the Equus. Hyundai still has no hybrids and still hasn't managed to develop a VGRS steering system, something Lexus had way back in 2002.
Even the GS featured a new direction injection system that remains the most advanced in the marketplace. Hyundai still hasn't figured out how to copy that.
About all they've done is match Toyota engines in hp output while missing their torque figures many years later.
Let me know when Hyundai builds are car that doesn't just undercut their rivals price but set a new standard in the class. Let me know when Hyundai's Elantra beats the Civic, the Sonata beats the Camry, or the Azera beats the Avalon. No shock the Genesis doesn't sell, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury segment they'll need to do more than undercut prices. Until that happens Hyundai remains an inferior nameplate trying to compete in with the world's best.
Sonata was ahead of Camry in both motortrend and Car and driver comparison last year. i believe sonata was #2 right behind passat in motortrend, and #4 in car and driver. camry was middle of the pack at #5.
and having owned both civic and elantra, elantra offers better overall ride and comfort. civic looks better, but the highway wind noise was too much for us. so we traded in our 06 civic to 08 elantra.
basically every hyundai models are competitive. they are not inferior to japanese rivals(honyota, nissan, mazda and etc), and much better than domestics.
02-21-09, 01:32 PM
#117
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http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...son/index.html
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._test/(page)/1
i'm kinda sick of how people think hyundai is an inferior product. 15 years ago, hyundai was a load of crap. 15 years later, hyundai is among top in quality, reliability, and price.
hyundai turned it around in 2002. that's not my assumption folks. it's a fact. JD associates, magazines, consumer reports and etc, etc.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._test/(page)/1
i'm kinda sick of how people think hyundai is an inferior product. 15 years ago, hyundai was a load of crap. 15 years later, hyundai is among top in quality, reliability, and price.
hyundai turned it around in 2002. that's not my assumption folks. it's a fact. JD associates, magazines, consumer reports and etc, etc.
02-21-09, 01:33 PM
#118
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Sonata was ahead of Camry in both motortrend and Car and driver comparison last year. i believe sonata was #2 right behind passat in motortrend, and #4 in car and driver. camry was middle of the pack at #5.
and having owned both civic and elantra, elantra offers better overall ride and comfort. civic looks better, but the highway wind noise was too much for us. so we traded in our 06 civic to 08 elantra.
basically every hyundai models are competitive. they are not inferior to japanese rivals(honyota, nissan, mazda and etc), and much better than domestics.
and having owned both civic and elantra, elantra offers better overall ride and comfort. civic looks better, but the highway wind noise was too much for us. so we traded in our 06 civic to 08 elantra.
basically every hyundai models are competitive. they are not inferior to japanese rivals(honyota, nissan, mazda and etc), and much better than domestics.
Camry never wins comparisons b/c its not sporty and its not cheap. However its the best selling car in American seemingly every year and I prefer it over the Sonata.
02-21-09, 01:35 PM
#119
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and by the way, i bet many of didn't even know that 4 cylinder sonata is more fuel efficient than both accord and camry. it's much cheaper than camry and has 20 more horses than camry too.
02-21-09, 01:48 PM
#120
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They are competitive and I am not going to say much better if any better than domestics. Domestics, like Hyundai have come a long way too.
Camry never wins comparisons b/c its not sporty and its not cheap. However its the best selling car in American seemingly every year and I prefer it over the Sonata.
Camry never wins comparisons b/c its not sporty and its not cheap. However its the best selling car in American seemingly every year and I prefer it over the Sonata.
i actually love camry. my mom has camry and we almost bought camry over our elantra, but we decided to save our money. in fact i like camry more than accord. i can't stand accord's rear and i'm not fan of gazillion buttons. can't compete against honyota in sales yet, but quality is on par. sonata sold over 8000 last months which isn't bad when compared to domestics and other brands other than honyotas.
but what i'm sick of is that general population thinks that sonata and other hyundai models are inferior products when compared to japanese cars. i bet 99% of the population thinks both camry and accord is better than sonata.
but that's not true. having driven almost all midsize sedans, i think sonata is one of the best especially after the refresh. same thing goes to almost all their lines ups. maybe except aging tucson, and 7 year old tib which will be discontinued.
people needs to know that hyundai produces cars with quality, not just value. hopefully both genesis & gen coupe changes the perception forever.