The $96,000 Hyundai
02-21-09, 01:55 PM
#121
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everyone knows the RL is a complete failure, you also forgot to mention it went on on sale in late 2004. And the RL came with new technology like SH-AWD, XM traffic, and Intelligent Night Vision. However when Honda released the NSX it did a lot more then just cost less than a Ferrari.
The GS is by far the weakest seller among Lexus's mainstream models primarily because Toyota made a huge error by failing to make any real effort to build a better 5-series or E-class, so setting sales expectations on a poorly selling Lexus isn't particularity meaningful. Go back and compare sales to the ES or LS
The M isn't fairly new, it launched alongside the GS which means its most likely completed 2/3 of its life cycle. You also forgot the Infiniti M starts at $46,615 while the a V8 Genesis maxes out at $42,000. A Toyota Avalon can get that expensive. I would say holding its own against the far more expensive M isn't much of an accomplishment.
And the comparison LS comparison isn't effective. Toyota wasn't aiming at the E-class or 5-series. Toyota aimed at the world's best volume sedans. Toyota had to develop all sorts of new technology for the LS and greatly improve on existing areas to build such a sedan. Lexus did much more than just merely undercut its rivals in terms of pricing they built the world's greatest sedan. And the LS outsells its competitors, not just the weakest models.
So far all Hyundai does is sell for less. Hyundai has brought zero new technology to the Genesis or for that matter the Equus. Hyundai still has no hybrids and still hasn't managed to develop a VGRS steering system, something Lexus had way back in 2002.
Even the GS featured a new direction injection system that remains the most advanced in the marketplace. Hyundai still hasn't figured out how to copy that.
About all they've done is match Toyota engines in hp output while missing their torque figures many years later.
Let me know when Hyundai builds are car that doesn't just undercut their rivals price but set a new standard in the class. Let me know when Hyundai's Elantra beats the Civic, the Sonata beats the Camry, or the Azera beats the Avalon. No shock the Genesis doesn't sell, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury segment they'll need to do more than undercut prices. Until that happens Hyundai remains an inferior nameplate trying to compete in with the world's best.
The GS is by far the weakest seller among Lexus's mainstream models primarily because Toyota made a huge error by failing to make any real effort to build a better 5-series or E-class, so setting sales expectations on a poorly selling Lexus isn't particularity meaningful. Go back and compare sales to the ES or LS
The M isn't fairly new, it launched alongside the GS which means its most likely completed 2/3 of its life cycle. You also forgot the Infiniti M starts at $46,615 while the a V8 Genesis maxes out at $42,000. A Toyota Avalon can get that expensive. I would say holding its own against the far more expensive M isn't much of an accomplishment.
And the comparison LS comparison isn't effective. Toyota wasn't aiming at the E-class or 5-series. Toyota aimed at the world's best volume sedans. Toyota had to develop all sorts of new technology for the LS and greatly improve on existing areas to build such a sedan. Lexus did much more than just merely undercut its rivals in terms of pricing they built the world's greatest sedan. And the LS outsells its competitors, not just the weakest models.
So far all Hyundai does is sell for less. Hyundai has brought zero new technology to the Genesis or for that matter the Equus. Hyundai still has no hybrids and still hasn't managed to develop a VGRS steering system, something Lexus had way back in 2002.
Even the GS featured a new direction injection system that remains the most advanced in the marketplace. Hyundai still hasn't figured out how to copy that.
About all they've done is match Toyota engines in hp output while missing their torque figures many years later.
Let me know when Hyundai builds are car that doesn't just undercut their rivals price but set a new standard in the class. Let me know when Hyundai's Elantra beats the Civic, the Sonata beats the Camry, or the Azera beats the Avalon. No shock the Genesis doesn't sell, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury segment they'll need to do more than undercut prices. Until that happens Hyundai remains an inferior nameplate trying to compete in with the world's best.
sadly that's what 99% americans thinks about hyundai.
absolutely a false statement though.
http://jalopnik.com/398092/2009-hyun...-smug-to-seoul
and hybrid is coming very soon.
Last edited by joe80; 02-21-09 at 01:59 PM.
02-21-09, 02:17 PM
#122
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Let me know when Hyundai builds are car that doesn't just undercut their rivals price but set a new standard in the class. Let me know when Hyundai's Elantra beats the Civic, the Sonata beats the Camry, or the Azera beats the Avalon. No shock the Genesis doesn't sell, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury segment they'll need to do more than undercut prices. Until that happens Hyundai remains an inferior nameplate trying to compete in with the world's best.
You bring up direct injection, Toyota having it, Hyundai not - but at the end of the day, direct injection is available on only a handful of Toyota engines, where as nearly every VW/Audi engine offers FSI. Hell, see the new TSI twin turbo/supercharged engine? Toyota doesn't really have anything to compete with the DSG/S-Tronic auomated twin clutch either. They don't do turbo powerplants, etc. And yet, it's pretty common knowledge that Japan regularly does enmulate German technology and design (abliet much more reliably). Again, certainly doesn't mean all Japanese cars are inferior as you term Hyundai.
Last edited by FKL; 02-21-09 at 02:22 PM.
02-21-09, 02:23 PM
#123
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i actually love camry. my mom has camry and we almost bought camry over our elantra, but we decided to save our money. in fact i like camry more than accord. i can't stand accord's rear and i'm not fan of gazillion buttons. can't compete against honyota in sales yet, but quality is on par. sonata sold over 8000 last months which isn't bad when compared to domestics and other brands other than honyotas.
but what i'm sick of is that general population thinks that sonata and other hyundai models are inferior products when compared to japanese cars. i bet 99% of the population thinks both camry and accord is better than sonata.
but that's not true. having driven almost all midsize sedans, i think sonata is one of the best especially after the refresh. same thing goes to almost all their lines ups. maybe except aging tucson, and 7 year old tib which will be discontinued.
people needs to know that hyundai produces cars with quality, not just value. hopefully both genesis & gen coupe changes the perception forever.
but what i'm sick of is that general population thinks that sonata and other hyundai models are inferior products when compared to japanese cars. i bet 99% of the population thinks both camry and accord is better than sonata.
but that's not true. having driven almost all midsize sedans, i think sonata is one of the best especially after the refresh. same thing goes to almost all their lines ups. maybe except aging tucson, and 7 year old tib which will be discontinued.
people needs to know that hyundai produces cars with quality, not just value. hopefully both genesis & gen coupe changes the perception forever.
While I adamantly stand up for them and see the strides they have made, PERSONALLY I had the sad opportunity to own a POS Hyundai, a Scoupe Turbo.
It was such a bad experience, it made me jump straight to Lexus for quality and reliability and as much as I love the GEnesis coupe, I don't know if I can give Hyundai my money again.Lexus STILL has the same issue with the general public many times and Euro snobs. You will find most of them are unknowledgable about cars and their own company. Tell them an E-class is a taxi or the 1 series is a hatch in Europe and they want to shoot themselves.
Goes back to what I've said from day 1, "Image, is everything".
Reading here compared to other forums, most see Hyundai on a tear but you will always get those that don't want to like it or don't like it and they are entitled to that.
Not everyone will want a Hyundai or be awed by it. This is the same for Lexus too.
02-21-09, 02:31 PM
#124
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And I also don't understand the notion that anybody who drives/desires a European-built car is just a snob and blind moron in search of boosting their ego. Don't take this the wrong way, but that's an almost fatuous remark.
02-21-09, 03:02 PM
#126
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LS will have a new friend
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/07/h...eed-automatic/
genesis with 8 speed automatic sometime around 2010
i think hyundai passing nissan in sales in america is just a matter of time. i would say within next 5-6 years. maybe sooner.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/07/h...eed-automatic/
genesis with 8 speed automatic sometime around 2010
i think hyundai passing nissan in sales in america is just a matter of time. i would say within next 5-6 years. maybe sooner.
02-21-09, 03:04 PM
#127
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So that somehow means that those two vehicles are garbage? I don't understand this point.
And I also don't understand the notion that anybody who drives/desires a European-built car is just a snob and blind moron in search of boosting their ego. Don't take this the wrong way, but that's an almost fatuous remark.
And I also don't understand the notion that anybody who drives/desires a European-built car is just a snob and blind moron in search of boosting their ego. Don't take this the wrong way, but that's an almost fatuous remark.
I also didn't say all Euro owners are snobs and I would never say such a thing. What I did say is I have noticed those that so angrily attack other brands as being inferior have all the auto knowledge of a pea.
Recently I told a lady friend that her Z4 was built in South Carolina and you would have thought I told her her kid can't count to 10 and he is 10.
02-22-09, 06:53 AM
#129
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I don't look upon this as a bad thing at all. In fact it is great advertising. When my father traveled to Germany on business in the early 1980s he was picked up by a Mercedes taxi upon exiting the airport. Did this change his opinion of the brand in a negative way? No. On the contrary, he was so enamored and impressed with the ride that a few years later he bought himself a 300SD Turbodiesel.
The problem is that most Americans are clueless in general about anything that doesn't concern the United States. To understand why BMW offers the 1 series or why Mercedes are sought after as taxis, one needs to understand the history of these brands and the conditions in their home market that created these products. It's that simple. Again, the average American won't have a clue and come to narrow minded conclusions about a certain brand.
My personal favorite are the BMW "fans" who make fun of 4-cylinder BMWs. I've actually heard some of these people comment on how:
"A 4-cylinder BMW is not a real BMW."
Obviously these people are completely clueless. The first M3 was powered by a 4-cylinder engine and there have been many impressive BMWs with 4-cylinder engines.
Or, even some people here on Club Lexus baffle me. I don't understand why "4-cylinders" are so frowned upon on these boards. BMW and Porsche have a history of winning races and championships with 4-cylinder engines for example. In Asia, Honda has a history of creating some of the most robust and powerful 4-cylinders for both civilian and racing use. There is nothing wrong with such engines. And modern 4-cylinders are just as responsive and refined as a 6-cylinder.
The fact that Lexus didn't offer 4-cylinder until the IS220d doesn't make them any more prestigeous than the European premium brands, which have decades of history and heritage (which, again, the average American is clueless about). One has to put this into perspective: the European brands started out in Europe. They had to adapt to home conditions. Lexus is a Japanese creation without a home country (literally). They were free to do what they wanted and they focused on the US where powerful engines are expected in luxury cars. That's the underlying difference between Lexus and the European brands.
02-22-09, 02:17 PM
#130
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni69uFo8ZTs
-korean teaser ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkaAS37SNzw
-in motion(same one, but this is youtube)
-korean teaser ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkaAS37SNzw
-in motion(same one, but this is youtube)
02-22-09, 08:56 PM
#131
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I didn't say they are garbage. I am saying that most Euro owners are pretty clueless on their entire companies product range and offerings. Most owners actually. The German brands have adamantly protected this sacred image in America for profits and perceived/real superiority.
I also didn't say all Euro owners are snobs and I would never say such a thing. What I did say is I have noticed those that so angrily attack other brands as being inferior have all the auto knowledge of a pea.
Recently I told a lady friend that her Z4 was built in South Carolina and you would have thought I told her her kid can't count to 10 and he is 10.
I also didn't say all Euro owners are snobs and I would never say such a thing. What I did say is I have noticed those that so angrily attack other brands as being inferior have all the auto knowledge of a pea.
Recently I told a lady friend that her Z4 was built in South Carolina and you would have thought I told her her kid can't count to 10 and he is 10.
Production centers also have no real bearing on much of anything beyond what I'd call ego boosting. The cars are still desigend and engineered back in their country of orgin and in many cases, are shipped in modules to just be constructed at the site of build.
02-22-09, 10:00 PM
#132
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The M isn't fairly new, it launched alongside the GS which means its most likely completed 2/3 of its life cycle. You also forgot the Infiniti M starts at $46,615 while the a V8 Genesis maxes out at $42,000. A Toyota Avalon can get that expensive. I would say holding its own against the far more expensive M isn't much of an accomplishment.
And the comparison LS comparison isn't effective. Toyota wasn't aiming at the E-class or 5-series. Toyota aimed at the world's best volume sedans. Toyota had to develop all sorts of new technology for the LS and greatly improve on existing areas to build such a sedan. Lexus did much more than just merely undercut its rivals in terms of pricing they built the world's greatest sedan. And the LS outsells its competitors, not just the weakest models.
Most enthusiasts, like myself, wouldn't pick one up due to the rather boring driving feedback (makes a great chauffered auto).
And I think you are highly undervaluing how much "value" played in the sales success of the LS (Lexus originally sold the LS at a loss).
In addition, the LS is only 1 of 4 sedans offered by Lexus.
Are the ES, GS or IS considered "best" in their class?
So what does that make Lexus' batting avg.?
Anyway, all of the new versions of Hyundai's engines will have GDI (happy now?).
And oh, BMW's current GDI system is generally considered the tops in the industry.
Let me know when Hyundai builds are car that doesn't just undercut their rivals price but set a new standard in the class. Let me know when Hyundai's Elantra beats the Civic, the Sonata beats the Camry, or the Azera beats the Avalon. No shock the Genesis doesn't sell, if Hyundai wants to enter the luxury segment they'll need to do more than undercut prices. Until that happens Hyundai remains an inferior nameplate trying to compete in with the world's best.
Not to mention a no. of German mags have rated the Kia Cee'd (also Hyundai i30) to be the equal of the Golf (both deemed inferior to the European Focus) and better than the offerings in the class from Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
And oh, the early reviews of the GenCoupe have been glowing.
Let's see how Toyota's RWD sports coupe compares... oh shoot!
And really, going on sales volume? - I guess Bose makes the best speakers in the audio world.
Last edited by YEH; 02-22-09 at 10:07 PM.
02-22-09, 10:17 PM
#133
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I think Mr. Jones did have a valid point to be made, however
Hyundai, in itself, still produces automobiles that are, at best, slightly lower than that of their Asian competition, on innovation, style, build quality, etc. The Sonata, while nice, is not a Camry, not an Accord. The Genesis is a great car, I am in love (for the price), yet I don't seriously think it undertakes the competition from Lexus, or the Europeans.
Personally, I think Hyundai is quickly rising, and that by their next full product cycle, they will be equal to that of Toyota/Honda/Nissan on nearly every front. Toyota and the rest of the pack know this.
And lastly, the Passat and Accord cannot be compared! I own both, big differences everywhere, that's it, I won't say anything more, I promise!
Hyundai, in itself, still produces automobiles that are, at best, slightly lower than that of their Asian competition, on innovation, style, build quality, etc. The Sonata, while nice, is not a Camry, not an Accord. The Genesis is a great car, I am in love (for the price), yet I don't seriously think it undertakes the competition from Lexus, or the Europeans.
Personally, I think Hyundai is quickly rising, and that by their next full product cycle, they will be equal to that of Toyota/Honda/Nissan on nearly every front. Toyota and the rest of the pack know this.
And lastly, the Passat and Accord cannot be compared! I own both, big differences everywhere, that's it, I won't say anything more, I promise!
Last edited by FKL; 02-22-09 at 10:20 PM.
02-23-09, 12:16 AM
#134
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^ While you are certainly entitled to your opinion - others would choose the Sonata over the Camry, the Genesis over the GS and the Elantra Touring over the Corolla hatch.
Nonetheless, I agree w/ you that Hyundai's current overall lineup is a little behind or a bit behind (i.e. - Tuscon) the top Japanese brands in certain respects (aside from a couple of exceptions such as the Elantra Touring).
As for build quality, I'd put Hyundai ahead of Nissan at this point.
Nonetheless, I agree w/ you that Hyundai's current overall lineup is a little behind or a bit behind (i.e. - Tuscon) the top Japanese brands in certain respects (aside from a couple of exceptions such as the Elantra Touring).
As for build quality, I'd put Hyundai ahead of Nissan at this point.
02-23-09, 12:34 AM
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Sonata over Camry, not sure.
Genesis and Elantra Touring definitely over the competition.
Build quality is definitely better than Nissan and at this point it's possible they're already at the top with Lexus. We'll see the numbers within a few years.
Genesis and Elantra Touring definitely over the competition.
Build quality is definitely better than Nissan and at this point it's possible they're already at the top with Lexus. We'll see the numbers within a few years.