January 2009 Automobile Sales
02-04-09, 03:23 PM
#122
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Tier 1...BMW and MB
Tier 2...Lexus, Audi, Cadillac (very borderline tier 2)
Tier 3...Acura, Inifiniti (borderline tier3), Lincoln
Last edited by pagemaster; 02-04-09 at 03:28 PM.
02-04-09, 03:34 PM
#123
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you forgot volvo...it's not doing well in America. but worldwide, it sells cars more than cadillac, lincoln, acura and infinit. (400,000 something 2008)
the tier 1, BMW and MB, not stable here~~ needs one more brand to fit in.
in terms of sale numbers, audi could fit here.(audi sells a lot small cars though). but in terms of many other things (reputation, etc), audi is in the 2 tier.
I think Lexus has a chance to get into the first Tier as long as they keep doing their job right, expand into more countries and make more models and variants.
so I think in future. it could be
tier 1: MB, BMW, Lexus(or audi)
tier 2: audi, vovlo, cadillac(or infiniti)
tier 3: acura, infinit and lincoln.
the tier 1, BMW and MB, not stable here~~ needs one more brand to fit in.
in terms of sale numbers, audi could fit here.(audi sells a lot small cars though). but in terms of many other things (reputation, etc), audi is in the 2 tier.
I think Lexus has a chance to get into the first Tier as long as they keep doing their job right, expand into more countries and make more models and variants.
so I think in future. it could be
tier 1: MB, BMW, Lexus(or audi)
tier 2: audi, vovlo, cadillac(or infiniti)
tier 3: acura, infinit and lincoln.
For Lexus, they may be Tier 1 status in (North America) which they are but world wide they are tier 2. Lexus lacks diesels, V12, F cars, unibody dedicated full size/mid size SUVS. Lexus also lacks Mercedes B class and BMW 1 series and will not lack a SL type car.
I don't consider LX570 and GX470 real Lexus models as these are actually Land Cruiser and Land Cruiser Prados. A real GL competitor is hard to find in the Lexus line.
Lexus is tier 1 in the US but Tier 2 worldwide.
02-04-09, 03:53 PM
#124
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And the Big 3 keep losing market share. Looks like their addiction to fleet sales (to rental car companies) is really showing up too.
"The once mighty trio of GM, Chrysler and Ford Motor Co. saw their share erode to just under 43 percent, down from 49 percent in December. That shrinking slice of the market is part of a long-term decline from around 80 percent as recently as April of 1985, according to Ward's AutoInfoBank.
Several industry analysts said U.S consumers that are buying cars are having doubts about whether Detroit car companies can stay in business and back their warranties. At the same time, Asian automakers are offering attractive rebates and low-interest financing.
For their part, GM, Chrysler and Ford blamed the sharp decline in January sales on falling purchases from fleet companies such as rental car firms."
"The once mighty trio of GM, Chrysler and Ford Motor Co. saw their share erode to just under 43 percent, down from 49 percent in December. That shrinking slice of the market is part of a long-term decline from around 80 percent as recently as April of 1985, according to Ward's AutoInfoBank.
Several industry analysts said U.S consumers that are buying cars are having doubts about whether Detroit car companies can stay in business and back their warranties. At the same time, Asian automakers are offering attractive rebates and low-interest financing.
For their part, GM, Chrysler and Ford blamed the sharp decline in January sales on falling purchases from fleet companies such as rental car firms."
02-04-09, 04:15 PM
#125
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Even in the USA, they are selling well within the price range of any luxury car brands. It's like saying if you put a 3 point star or a propeller logo on a Land Cruiser, it's automatically a luxury car, but if you switch it back to the Toyota logo, then it isn't, because it's , well a Toyota, not a "luxury brand"
Had Mercedes and BMW made the exact same Land cruiser, it will be a bona fide Mercedes and BMW model selling well within their own price range, since it's the logo, not the car itself that matters ? Using brand to differentiate is sometimes so stupid.
The Land Cruiser is more high end in both luxury and specs. than some of the BMW and Mercedes models that they are selling even in the U.S., not to mention the lower end mercs and bimmers they are selling in the rest of the world that make up the vast majority of their sales.
Because Toyota had to split out their luxury models as a seperate Lexus brand, their "luxury car" production is often understated both in the US and even more so worldwide. Whereas Merc's and BMW's "Luxury brand" production are over stated for the same reasons, since if they are selling the exact same A and B-class, low specs 1-series, etc., in the USA that they are selling in Europe, they won't fall within the "luxury car" price range in the US, i.e, starting price of ~$30K or above. They will be selling in the price range of Honda's, Toyota's and Nissans, etc. ......
Last edited by Gojirra99; 02-05-09 at 06:34 AM.
02-04-09, 04:21 PM
#126
It won't matter if the LX570 & GX470 are considered real Lexus or not because the Land Cruiser and Cruiser Prados are very expensive themselves already, more expensive anywhere than many of the so called "luxury brand" cars that Benz and BMW, are selling anywhere.
Even in the USA, they are selling well within the price range of any luxury car brands. It's like saying if you put a 3 point star or a propeller logo on a Land Cruiser, it's automatically a luxury car, but if you switch it back to the Toyota logo, then it isn't, because it's , well a Toyota, not a "luxury brand"
Had Mercedes and BMW made the exact same Land cruiser, it will be a bona fide Mercedes and BMW model selling well within their own price range, since it's the logo, not the car itself that matters ? Using brand to differentiate is sometimes so stupid.
The Land Cruiser is more high end in both luxury and specs. than some of the BMW and Mercedes models that they are selling even in the U.S., not to mention the lower end mercs and bimmers they are selling in the rest of the world that make up the vast majority of their sales.
Because Toyota had to split out their luxury models as a seperate Lexus brand, their "luxury car" production is often understated both in the US and even more so worldwide. Whereas Merc's and BMW's "Luxury brand" production are over stated for the same reasons, since if they are selling the exact same A and B-class, low specs 1-series, etc., in the USA that they are selling in Europe, they won't fall within the "luxury car" price range in the US, i.e, ~$30K or above. They will be selling in the price range of Honda's Toyota's and Nissans, etc. ......
Even in the USA, they are selling well within the price range of any luxury car brands. It's like saying if you put a 3 point star or a propeller logo on a Land Cruiser, it's automatically a luxury car, but if you switch it back to the Toyota logo, then it isn't, because it's , well a Toyota, not a "luxury brand"
Had Mercedes and BMW made the exact same Land cruiser, it will be a bona fide Mercedes and BMW model selling well within their own price range, since it's the logo, not the car itself that matters ? Using brand to differentiate is sometimes so stupid.
The Land Cruiser is more high end in both luxury and specs. than some of the BMW and Mercedes models that they are selling even in the U.S., not to mention the lower end mercs and bimmers they are selling in the rest of the world that make up the vast majority of their sales.
Because Toyota had to split out their luxury models as a seperate Lexus brand, their "luxury car" production is often understated both in the US and even more so worldwide. Whereas Merc's and BMW's "Luxury brand" production are over stated for the same reasons, since if they are selling the exact same A and B-class, low specs 1-series, etc., in the USA that they are selling in Europe, they won't fall within the "luxury car" price range in the US, i.e, ~$30K or above. They will be selling in the price range of Honda's Toyota's and Nissans, etc. ......
The definition of "true" luxury car does vary depending on region, and most people would agree on the top-of-the-line models being luxury, but others it's debatable.Sales-wise, I do wonder how predictive this month will be for the year.
Last edited by Gojirra99; 02-04-09 at 05:16 PM.
02-04-09, 04:28 PM
#127
It won't matter if the LX570 & GX470 are considered real Lexus or not because the Land Cruiser and Cruiser Prados are very expensive themselves already, more expensive anywhere than many of the so called "luxury brand" cars that Benz and BMW, anywhere are selling anywhere.
Even in the USA, they are selling well within the price range of any luxury car brands. It's like saying if you put a 3 point star or a propeller logo on a Land Cruiser, it's automatically a luxury car, but if you switch it back to the Toyota logo, then it isn't, because it's , well a Toyota, not a "luxury brand"
Had Mercedes and BMW made the exact same Land cruiser, it will be a bona fide Mercedes and BMW model selling well within their own price range, since it's the logo, not the car itself that matters ? Using brand to differentiate is sometimes so stupid.
The Land Cruiser is more high end in both luxury and specs. than some of the BMW and Mercedes models that they are selling even in the U.S., not to mention the lower end mercs and bimmers they are selling in the rest of the world that make up the vast majority of their sales.
Because Toyota had to split out their luxury models as a seperate Lexus brand, their "luxury car" production is often understated both in the US and even more so worldwide. Whereas Merc's and BMW's "Luxury brand" production are over stated for the same reasons, since if they are selling the exact same A and B-class, low specs 1-series, etc., in the USA that they are selling in Europe, they won't fall within the "luxury car" price range in the US, i.e, ~$30K or above. They will be selling in the price range of Honda's Toyota's and Nissans, etc. ......
Even in the USA, they are selling well within the price range of any luxury car brands. It's like saying if you put a 3 point star or a propeller logo on a Land Cruiser, it's automatically a luxury car, but if you switch it back to the Toyota logo, then it isn't, because it's , well a Toyota, not a "luxury brand"
Had Mercedes and BMW made the exact same Land cruiser, it will be a bona fide Mercedes and BMW model selling well within their own price range, since it's the logo, not the car itself that matters ? Using brand to differentiate is sometimes so stupid.
The Land Cruiser is more high end in both luxury and specs. than some of the BMW and Mercedes models that they are selling even in the U.S., not to mention the lower end mercs and bimmers they are selling in the rest of the world that make up the vast majority of their sales.
Because Toyota had to split out their luxury models as a seperate Lexus brand, their "luxury car" production is often understated both in the US and even more so worldwide. Whereas Merc's and BMW's "Luxury brand" production are over stated for the same reasons, since if they are selling the exact same A and B-class, low specs 1-series, etc., in the USA that they are selling in Europe, they won't fall within the "luxury car" price range in the US, i.e, ~$30K or above. They will be selling in the price range of Honda's Toyota's and Nissans, etc. ......
02-04-09, 06:52 PM
#128
See I don't just look at sales when deciding worldwide Tier 1 status. I look at the overall line up of cars world wide etc.
For Lexus, they may be Tier 1 status in (North America) which they are but world wide they are tier 2. Lexus lacks diesels, V12, F cars, unibody dedicated full size/mid size SUVS. Lexus also lacks Mercedes B class and BMW 1 series and will not lack a SL type car.
I don't consider LX570 and GX470 real Lexus models as these are actually Land Cruiser and Land Cruiser Prados. A real GL competitor is hard to find in the Lexus line.
Lexus is tier 1 in the US but Tier 2 worldwide.
For Lexus, they may be Tier 1 status in (North America) which they are but world wide they are tier 2. Lexus lacks diesels, V12, F cars, unibody dedicated full size/mid size SUVS. Lexus also lacks Mercedes B class and BMW 1 series and will not lack a SL type car.
I don't consider LX570 and GX470 real Lexus models as these are actually Land Cruiser and Land Cruiser Prados. A real GL competitor is hard to find in the Lexus line.
Lexus is tier 1 in the US but Tier 2 worldwide.
02-04-09, 06:56 PM
#129
many people are missing the big picture here - drop in sales is pretty bad, but drop in sales is not the only bad thing - or possibly not the worse thing that is happening right now.
the worst thing is that incentives are so high that neither manufacturers or dealers are making any money on the vehicles right now... this is where all these big losses are coming from.
if you have money, best time to buy new vehicle is now.. you will get huge discounts on almost anything... here in europe, cars are now sold at manufacturing prices, and it is unbelievable that you can get $10k discount on rav4.
the worst thing is that incentives are so high that neither manufacturers or dealers are making any money on the vehicles right now... this is where all these big losses are coming from.
if you have money, best time to buy new vehicle is now.. you will get huge discounts on almost anything... here in europe, cars are now sold at manufacturing prices, and it is unbelievable that you can get $10k discount on rav4.
02-04-09, 07:34 PM
#130
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Seriously.Just imagine if Lexus went that down market! We wouldn't here the end of it.
In response to Pagemaster...
So, the $105,885 Lexus LS600hL doesn't qualify as tier 1 worldwide whereas MB and BMW sell stripped down models that get used as everyday taxi-cabs are considered tier 1?
OK then.
02-04-09, 07:41 PM
#131
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I know these are a bunch of different brands but I post to show how some of these brands will be gone. You have Luxury brands selling better or as good as non-luxury brands. Look at Saab total sales!!!
Hyundai, 24,512
Kia 22,096
Lexus 14,722
VW 12,744
Suburu 12,194
Benz 10,433
Pontiac 9,104
Cadillac 8,499
Acura 7,856
Infinti 7,115
Buick 6,969
Saturn 6,174
Lincoln 6,091
Mercury 5,183
Audi 4,722
Volvo 2,910
Saab 955
Hyundai, 24,512
Kia 22,096
Lexus 14,722
VW 12,744
Suburu 12,194
Benz 10,433
Pontiac 9,104
Cadillac 8,499
Acura 7,856
Infinti 7,115
Buick 6,969
Saturn 6,174
Lincoln 6,091
Mercury 5,183
Audi 4,722
Volvo 2,910
Saab 955
Hyundai, Kia, and Lexus outselling Europe's best selling brand [VW].
Hyundai sold TWICE as much no less - and VW has more models!
02-04-09, 08:01 PM
#132
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HahaHa! Seriously.
Just imagine if Lexus went that down market! We wouldn't here the end of it.
In response to Pagemaster...
So, the $105,885 Lexus LS600hL doesn't qualify as tier 1 worldwide whereas MB and BMW sell stripped down models that get used as everyday taxi-cabs are considered tier 1?
OK then.
Seriously.Just imagine if Lexus went that down market! We wouldn't here the end of it.
In response to Pagemaster...
So, the $105,885 Lexus LS600hL doesn't qualify as tier 1 worldwide whereas MB and BMW sell stripped down models that get used as everyday taxi-cabs are considered tier 1?
OK then.
In terms of tier 1 or 2, I think the flagship model tells something.
in 2007, LS sold 71000 worldwide, S sold 85000 world wide and 7 sold less than 50000. Audi A8 too few to bother. other brands don't have high-end flagship models.
So I think lexus has established its prestige.
only needs to get more models to catch up the sale numbers in the future.
02-04-09, 08:07 PM
#133
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(but it is largely due to the fact that VW entered China almost 30 years ago, much earlier than other competitors.) and they sold 0.4m cars with 2 really old models (20-30 years ago, 2rd generation jetta and 2rd generation passat).
in addition,
GM 1.06m.
toyota 0.58m.
honda 0.48m.
ford 0.3m.
anyway VW's car sucks.
02-04-09, 08:14 PM
#134
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It won't matter if the LX570 & GX470 are considered real Lexus or not because the Land Cruiser and Cruiser Prados are very expensive themselves already, more expensive anywhere than many of the so called "luxury brand" cars that Benz and BMW, anywhere are selling anywhere.
Even in the USA, they are selling well within the price range of any luxury car brands. It's like saying if you put a 3 point star or a propeller logo on a Land Cruiser, it's automatically a luxury car, but if you switch it back to the Toyota logo, then it isn't, because it's , well a Toyota, not a "luxury brand"
Had Mercedes and BMW made the exact same Land cruiser, it will be a bona fide Mercedes and BMW model selling well within their own price range, since it's the logo, not the car itself that matters ? Using brand to differentiate is sometimes so stupid.
The Land Cruiser is more high end in both luxury and specs. than some of the BMW and Mercedes models that they are selling even in the U.S., not to mention the lower end mercs and bimmers they are selling in the rest of the world that make up the vast majority of their sales.
Because Toyota had to split out their luxury models as a seperate Lexus brand, their "luxury car" production is often understated both in the US and even more so worldwide. Whereas Merc's and BMW's "Luxury brand" production are over stated for the same reasons, since if they are selling the exact same A and B-class, low specs 1-series, etc., in the USA that they are selling in Europe, they won't fall within the "luxury car" price range in the US, i.e, starting price of ~$30K or above. They will be selling in the price range of Honda's, Toyota's and Nissans, etc. ......
Even in the USA, they are selling well within the price range of any luxury car brands. It's like saying if you put a 3 point star or a propeller logo on a Land Cruiser, it's automatically a luxury car, but if you switch it back to the Toyota logo, then it isn't, because it's , well a Toyota, not a "luxury brand"
Had Mercedes and BMW made the exact same Land cruiser, it will be a bona fide Mercedes and BMW model selling well within their own price range, since it's the logo, not the car itself that matters ? Using brand to differentiate is sometimes so stupid.
The Land Cruiser is more high end in both luxury and specs. than some of the BMW and Mercedes models that they are selling even in the U.S., not to mention the lower end mercs and bimmers they are selling in the rest of the world that make up the vast majority of their sales.
Because Toyota had to split out their luxury models as a seperate Lexus brand, their "luxury car" production is often understated both in the US and even more so worldwide. Whereas Merc's and BMW's "Luxury brand" production are over stated for the same reasons, since if they are selling the exact same A and B-class, low specs 1-series, etc., in the USA that they are selling in Europe, they won't fall within the "luxury car" price range in the US, i.e, starting price of ~$30K or above. They will be selling in the price range of Honda's, Toyota's and Nissans, etc. ......
Exactly and couldn't have been stated better. Sadly if will fall on deaf ears to those that either don't understand the complexities of what you stated or refuse to acknowledge them.
Pagemaster your Tier list has no merit and nothing to remotely back up those claims. EVERY SINGLE PUBLICATION has Lexus as Tier I here. Acura and Infiniti themselves recognize BMW/Benz/Lexus as Tier 1. We are talking about America.
ARe you Vtech Ricer per chance on another forum?
02-04-09, 08:25 PM
#135
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I said Lexus is Tier 1 for North America markets. Worldwide they are Tier 2.