RXSF

you mean the same automotive journalist who favor horsepower over efficiency, steering feel over practicality, and cornering abilities over value for money?

last time i checked, most automotive journalist dont get the picture on what the consumers want. but anywhoo, we are not saying that hybrids are the answer to the worlds fossil fuel problems, but that it is a step in the right direction. god knows why the europeans are so stubborn to try new things.

lets take a look at diesels for a moment:
they are loud, weak except for a bit of torque, spew out particulates that are harmful to the environement, AND diesel gas costs more, but they are fuel efficient.

hybrids: fuel efficient, powerful, SULEV rating in california, no noise sometimes.

i think many will find that a hybrid is the way to go

CDNROCKIES

Sorry, but have to disagree here. These statements may have been true a decade ago but today's diesels are none of the above.

We've driven the X5 35d and the ML Bluetec (twice) over the last few weeks. Both are quiet enough that, outside of start up, you'd hardly notice that it was a diesel. Even at start up, it's nothing like old style diesels that rumble and gurgle.

That "bit" of torque is huge for both the MB and BMW. They have 400 and 425 lb/ft respectively. Towing capabilities are roughly 7000 lbs for the Germans, while the RX is only capable of hauling 3500 lbs.

Both the Bluetec and 35d use a process that injects urea into the exhaust that reacts and is supposed to expel almost entirely water. I haven't researched all of the technical specs for this new technology but it is certainly a step in the right direction.

Currently, diesel is 10 cents per liter (40 cents per gallon) cheaper than regular fuel and 22 cents (88 cents per gallon) cheaper than premium.

The new diesels are serious contenders to the hybrid in all areas.

The wife just has to make up her mind whether she wants the Bluetec or the 450h.

encore888

I would say that both hybrids and the new clean diesels are contenders, however for the US market and Asia, hybrids are more widely accepted and popular. In Europe, diesels have more common acceptance, but hybrids are being introduced not just by Lexus and Toyota, but soon Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes; even the EU Commissioner for the Environment drives a Prius. Overall, the RX 450h's 30 mpg combined is a good benchmark for upcoming luxury hybrids, in a market that will be getting more crowded as other companies compete with Lexus.

RXSF

you cant say that those diesels are as quiet as a hybrid
you cant say that those diesels are cleaner than a hybrid
you cant say that those diesels are faster than a hybrid
you cant say that diesel gas prices are cheaper than gas (esp not in America)
but i guess you can say that you can tow more

ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

Apparently someone in Europe got the memo...

SLegacy99

Seems like a no brainer to me. Especially since the RX is so much cheaper.

Not to mention you have to adhere to urea refills or the diesels will stop starting.

DustinV

You'd be surprised how many owners of luxury SUVs take their vehicles off-road. What you are trying to tell me is a "common misconception" that owners of luxury SUVs do not take them off-road. Furthermore, we should define the term "off-road" as it can mean getting the car dirty on a muddy country road or driving up into the mountains on a camping trip etc.

Without looking at any statistical data (which I would not be able to find even if tried), I am willing to bet that owners of a Lexus RX are for more reserved about going off-road than owners of an ML or Touareg.


Why not? Because it would refute your claim that "all luxury SUV owners don't take their car off a clean road"?




Hybrids don't seem to be compatible with the driving styles of most Europeans. When you buy a diesel here in Europe you typically buy it because A) the fuel economy, and B) you drive a lot. There is a hefty diesel tax in Germany which only really makes sense if you drive over a certain mileage per year.

And from the looks of it you have obviously not tried a modern diesel. My former company car was a Mercedes C200 CDI and even I, a guy reared on big and powerful engines, thought the performance was fantastic for what it was.



The Europeans have advanced the diesel engine because diesel has long been a reliable and efficient fuel source on the Old Continent. They are familiar with the technology and the increasing recent advances in diesel technology have made them even more favorable.

In the US and especially in Japan, there is an existing stigma against diesels, hence the Japanese have decided to combine the gasoline engine with an electric motor. It's a difference of cultures that lead to these different developments, wouldn't you say?

Furthermore a current Toyota (Lexus) or Honda hybrid is only really efficient in the urban environment or at least on a cruising speed. Problem is that at cruising speeds a comparable diesel returns even better mileage as it doesn't have to haul around the extra weight that is packed into a hybrid. One reason why hybrids have not caught on here.

insider

Who cares. If you want to save money, buy a used SUV. The first year depreciation alone of a new Lexus is enough to pay for years of gas on a used SUV.

ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

"Furthermore a current Toyota (Lexus) or Honda hybrid is only really efficient in the urban environment or at least on a cruising speed."



Last I checked the diesels are more fuel efficient in cruising and hybrids are better in the stop-and-go traffic, which unless I am mistaken, is more suitable for the European driving style. No?

We can argue about the hybrid vs. diesel all day but I would still like to see who is going to adapt who 20 years down the road when hybrids (including hybrid diesel) trump diesels in every category. Yeah, you can question it all you want but mark my words: IT WILL HAPPEN.

As for the luxury CROSSOVERS like the X5 and ML using for towing duty, unless you can prove me wrong with some cold hard numbers I don't buy any of those. At least in America they normally aren't, people who want to tow stuffs will get a pickup truck or some BOF SUVs, luxury crossovers are for soccer mom/dad shuttle duties...

DustinV

No. I am talking about automotive journalists who are realistic and question the need for such things.

In my personal opinion the Lexus LS600h is a mistake. A car looking for a mission and a purpose. It can count itself lucky that Lexus has managed to market (or hype it up) so well.

I would like to hear from you just what exactly makes the LS600h so "efficient"? The fuel economy is hardly better than that of an LS460. The trunk space is a joke. When the car is running on its overpowered gasoline engine it will still need to haul around the weight created by the batteries and electric motor. That's not efficiency.

There was an interesting comparison between a Mercedes S600 and an LS600h about a year ago from Autobild. The LS600h was more economical in the urban environment. In rural driving I believe it was more efficient by a mere liter of gas. On the autobahn at a steady and constant 180 kph both the LS600h needed over 30 liters of premium fuel per 100 km while the S600 only required about 28.9 liters I believe. I am citing this from memory so I will try looking for article and posting the link here.

And for your information, the LS600h has been compared to the V8 diesel German competition and has fared badly in gas mileage and even performance.


I personally don't even consider the S600 or A8 W12 a competitor to the LS600h. This is Lexus marketing at its best. Tell the public that the LS600h competes with ultra-thirsty German rivals so the car will appear "efficient" in the eyes of the masses. I am sorry, but that's my opinion. Also, I highly doubt buyers of a Mercedes S600 care about fuel economy, because if they did, they would have bought something else. The S600, A8 W12 and LS600h are all about status, not efficiency. The so-called "efficiency" of the LS600h is just something Lexus sneaked in through their marketing.

I am not a fan of the LS600h or Lexus hybrids in general. I would like to see them adapt for once and focus on diesels, which is also experiencing a wave of popularity in the US.



I generally don't even care what automotive journalists have to say. I know what I personally want and am looking for in a car.

In the case of Lexus hybrids, especially the LS600h, I agree with them because many of them have questioned its reason for being here. See my response above. It is hardly better on gas than an LS460 and the fact that it is a low emission vehicle is hardly a reason for calling it "green".

My best and most objective guess would be that Lexus wanted to create a "sensation" and grab hold of a couple of "World's First..." awards and of course use the hybrid hype to make the car succeed.



God knows why Lexus is too stubborn to adapt to different markets.



You're talking about diesels from the '70s and '80s. Beginning in the early 1990s diesel technology leaped ahead and began improving rapidly. You cannot even compare a diesel from today to a diesel from the mid-1990s. The rapid advancement in technology is staggering. A modern diesel is refined, quiet, powerful, efficient and its emissions are constantly being minimized. There is now such a thing as clean diesels. There are diesels that achieve better fuel economy than a Toyota Prius and lower emissions too.

And once the company lease on my Mercedes E230 is up, I am looking into purchasing a Citroen C5 HDi: diesel.

I honestly can't see myself buying a hybrid at this point in time. The technology is still too new and the fuel economy benefits are so negligable it simply isn't worth it. The packaging of Lexus hybrid vehicles in particular is also a turn-off. Increased weight, less payload capacity and reduced trunk space? Excuse me, but this takes away the family feel of these cars. You can honestly forget going on a camping trip in a GS450h and LS600h. I assume the RX450h is better suited for that task but then again I have not looked into that car. What are the trunk and payload capacity figures for that thing?

DustinV

Exactly.

This example below a generalization about Europeans living out in the countryside, a place where hybrid sales are next to zero.

The European driving style is defined by the local roads. A lot of Europeans don't live in major cities but commute to work by public transport. On weekends when they use their cars for whatever reasons they are usually driving on roads that resemble a racetrack. These roads constantly vary in elevation, have tight turns here and there and so forth.

Driving with any vehicle on such roads means accelerating, slowing down, accelerating etc. This burns gas, lots of it. On a hybrid however, the extra weight of the batteries and electric motor make matters worse. Now, let's say the car in question is a GS450h or LS600h, a vehicle with an already overpowered gasoline engine. See my point?


Remember that test between the M3 and the Prius on a racetrack?

Or how about the test between a Toyota Prius and a BMW 520d in southern England being driven on exactly those roads I described in my statement above?

In both cases, the Toyota Prius needed more fuel. It could have been more efficient in the test against the 520d if it had been lighter and its 1.5-l engine had been optimized for such conditions. Obviously the Prius was designed to be an efficient city car.


I hate predicting the future.

What's there to prevent diesels from becoming even more efficient? It's already happening with the added-benefits of stop-and-go technology which shut down the engine when the car comes to a complete stop at a light.

Diesel cars are incredibly clean today and becoming even cleaner. I would say that diesels have just as good a chance as becoming an even more popular means of propulsion outside of Europe.


You're making a generalization again.

There are thousands of luxury SUV owners who use their expensive off-road vehicles for just that: off-roading and towing. I suggest you paint yourself a picture by visiting a online clubs such as a Mercedes G class or ML club (something along those lines) or reading other forums. There are many owners of these cars that use them in such ways.

I have a friend in Tampa (Florida) who owns a Mercedes ML320 which he uses to tow his speedboat around. He's also an avid camping fan and has been in the mountains of Colorado with his ML320 (I can perhaps show you the picture he sent me of his ML in the mud covered with dirt and specs of snow: if I can find it). This is just a personal example, but there are many more to be found elsewhere.

Like I said, it is a common misconception that the owners of such vehicles don't get them dirty.

ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

Ah... give me a break...

So what does the Prius burn more gas on the race track than M3? Even though if the European country roads are like a race track (which I doubt they are, they are probably more like canyon roads here in California) who in their right mind will drive like they are on a race track everyday? At normal driving (which AT LEAST 75% of the people do), even on twisty roads a Prius will be more fuel efficient than 99% of any other cars, gasoline or diesel.

Sure I am generalizing about the crossover but what's wrong with generalization? If one out of 10 people use their crossovers for towing duty should I take that 1 person as example but ignore the other 9? This is exactly the problem of the so-called "car people" when they are so hot about handling, steering and such. They forgot to GENERALIZE and forgot to consider how MOST people really use their cars for. You are making the same mistake here my friend, for both the crossover and stating Prius burns more gas than M3 on the country roads.

As for the question "What's there to prevent diesels from becoming even more efficient? " Let me give u the 50,000-ft level answer...

Unless all diesels in Europe are biodiesel I am assuming that the majority are still petroldiesel, which means they are derived from petroleum, which also means without oil, no diesel. So no matter how fuel efficient the diesel engines will become, without the fuel, the diesel engine wouldn't run. On the other hand for the hybrid, with the advancement of the battery technology in the foreseeable future it is VERY LIKELY that the electric motor will replace the gasoline engine as the primary source for hybrid cars unlike the other way around for today. Further more, it is also VERY LIKELY that one day we'll be driving a car that runs totally on battery power, meaning without a single drop of "petrol" as the Europeans like to call it. As matter of fact, the Tesla roadster is a great example of what the future could be and should be. Am I predicting the future? Yes and no, yes for the Lexus/Toyota hybrids are still far from it but no for well... look at Tesla.

Can diesel engine ever run without a single drop of fuel even if it gets you 100 mpg? We all know the answer of that...

With that, I am done with the hybrid vs. diesel discussion.

DustinV

Here:




My point is that in such driving conditions where the gasoline engine of a hybrid is powering the car, the extra weight created by the hybrid components such as the batteries and electric motor influence fuel economy in a negative way.

In the case of the Prius, the 1.5-l gasoline engine is a little underpowered. In Lexus hybrids the gasoline engines are overpowered. Both these facts mean generally poor gas mileage in such situations.


The Prius burns more gas than a BMW M3 on the track being driven hard, not country roads.

Bean

iTrader: (1)

If you really believe this, I'd gracefully bow out of this conversation. Petrol hybrids have OUTSTANDING stop-and-go characteristics. FAR better than any diesel. This is why their city mileage is rated higher than their highway mileage.

Where's my captain obvious picture?

The Prius makes plenty of power I'd bet money its faster than the large majority of little diesels Europe has running all over it (many of whom have 0-60 times in the 11-12 sec range).

The Prius engine was designed to be fuel efficient, so please explain to me how it gets poor gas mileage "in such situations" ? Just because you think its underpowered? You DO realize that the little diesels you're defending are underpowered too?

The engines in the various Lexus vehicles were designed for performance as well (not just gas mileage). They still have far lower emissions than the diesels you love so much. The people who can afford them aren't worried much about fuel efficiency anyway; seems that Toyota/Lexus knows their market

DustinV

The Prius does 0-100 kph in 10.9 seconds according to this review: http://www.autozeitung.de/vergleichs...n-toyota-prius

If I am correct, there are many smaller diesel cars that are just as fast or even quicker. Either way, raw acceleration is not an issue in Europe. Midrange acceleration is more important here and a little diesel kills the Prius in that department.



Designing an engine to be fuel-efficient is one thing, but for the engine to achieve that is another. Fuel-efficiency is also affected by trivial things such as tries, weather and of course the driving style of the vehicle operator.

Allow me to tell you in simple terms what I mean by "underpowered". The 1.5-l engine found in the Prius is more than adequate if the Prius were a regular car (keeping the same size). However, the extra weight of the batteries and electric motor turn that adequateness into the word "underpowered". Needless to say the 1.5-l engine of the Prius is also a little low on torque. These factors put the Prius at a disadvantage in such situations.

A comparable 1.5-l diesel engine will produce more torque. Torque influences acceleration positively meaning that those little diesels will actually have more punch and quicker acceleration than a Prius running on its 1.5-l gasoline engine. Various tests have proven this.

The Prius is at a 0-60 advantage initially because of the instant power of its electric motor.



Lexus hybrids have lower emissions, yes. Good fuel economy? No. The oil used to fuel their engines still needs to be extracted from the ground. Pollution is still created.

It's a sad fact that automobiles are still polluters one way or the other. No fuel-efficiency or low emission status can really help them shed that image. The production process alone creates waste and pollution. I would suspect that the construction of the batteries and electric motors for Lexus hybrids also creates its fair share of pollution.