top gear: m3 vs is-f
03-09-09, 01:46 PM
#47
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Few Lexus engineers, on their spare own time, basically took a stock 2IS, reworked it, gave it a different suspension, V8 engine, and brakes. It was purely a research project and wasn't even funded by Lexus from the beginning. However, since their work is so good, corporate Lexus then decided the car is ready and suitable for prime time, thus the birth of the IS F.
M3 and C63 on the other hand, were completely engineered from the beginning of the process of the regular 3-series and C-class.
With that being said, for what it is, the IS F is an AMAZING car and I wouldn't mind to own one someday, as matter of fact, since it is selling at well below invoice, I might trade in for one if the price is right.
M3 and C63 on the other hand, were completely engineered from the beginning of the process of the regular 3-series and C-class.
With that being said, for what it is, the IS F is an AMAZING car and I wouldn't mind to own one someday, as matter of fact, since it is selling at well below invoice, I might trade in for one if the price is right.
although is-f is lexus first attempt in this segment, but given the racing history of lexus, and cars they made like supra, it's clear that they are capable. i have always said that for their "first" attempt on the is-f, i think they did a fantastic job already, really head to head with the m3 and c63. and like some said, most importantly, is bmw and mb they ARE taking the is-f seriously
03-09-09, 03:36 PM
#48
Lexus Test Driver
I expect E90/92 M3 to be a much better car than the IS-F as I have both IS350 and E90 330i. I drove the IS-F on the track before and it doesn't feel that much different from my IS350 on coilovers other than F's torquey motor. My stock 330i is much more fun to drive than my IS350 even though it's underpowered. If I'm spending $50~$65K for a car that I'll be driving everyday for the next 4 or 5 years, M3 will be the only candidate, regardless IS-F being at the bottom of my budget while M3 at the top.
Don't I feel like a tool for buying an IS-F when I could have just gone out and purchased an IS350 for thousands less, adding suspension of course and have a car that "doesn't feel that much different" than an IS-F
I don't have to comment further on this topic, and I'm sure IS-F owners will back me on this. The IS-F is on another planet entirely than an IS350! End of discussion!
Last edited by 8speed; 03-09-09 at 04:05 PM.
03-09-09, 03:49 PM
#49
You must have read the same R & D article that eveyone else has when they stuffed a TRD 5.2 liter engine in an IS300. Please tell me you have something original to offer to this discussion besides regurgitating a lexus press release?
C63 is nothing more than a C class with the largest engine AMG could possibly fit in the engine bay. How much engineering and R & D was involved with that?
C63 is nothing more than a C class with the largest engine AMG could possibly fit in the engine bay. How much engineering and R & D was involved with that?
I agree the ISF is a good car but its not a G_d all mighty car like an M3 or C63. AMG just took a similar looking car (exterior) re did everything..The lower unibody is not even the same as the production C...
(Its the first time AMG has actually invested R&D into the C....)
BMW has always done that with their M///'s.
The Lexus ISF in essence just has boltons..(minus the re fabrication of the transmission tunnel) but hey wait I did that to install a LS6 in my friends 240SX
03-09-09, 04:11 PM
#50
Lexus Test Driver
03-09-09, 04:12 PM
#51
For the record...
I don't think M3 and C63 are god almighty either (I've driven both, e46 M3 and C63 AMG). As matter of fact I'll take the IS F over the C63, the new C AMG is cheap on the inside and have a light and somewhat numb steering compare to the IS F.
Like others have said, IS F is an excellent effort for Lexus' first super sedan and a non-disputable contender to the M3 and C63. Take a look at the first-ever C-class AMG and the IS F then you'll see what I am saying.
I don't think M3 and C63 are god almighty either (I've driven both, e46 M3 and C63 AMG). As matter of fact I'll take the IS F over the C63, the new C AMG is cheap on the inside and have a light and somewhat numb steering compare to the IS F.
Like others have said, IS F is an excellent effort for Lexus' first super sedan and a non-disputable contender to the M3 and C63. Take a look at the first-ever C-class AMG and the IS F then you'll see what I am saying.
03-09-09, 04:20 PM
#53
They must have miracle engineers in Japan 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GZ_engine
They did not fit that in the 1IS that's for sure...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GZ_engine
They did not fit that in the 1IS that's for sure...
Last edited by lexusscturbo; 03-09-09 at 04:24 PM.
03-09-09, 06:05 PM
#54
Lexus Fanatic
I agree the ISF is a good car but its not a G_d all mighty car like an M3 or C63. AMG just took a similar looking car (exterior) re did everything..The lower unibody is not even the same as the production C...
(Its the first time AMG has actually invested R&D into the C....)
BMW has always done that with their M///'s.
(Its the first time AMG has actually invested R&D into the C....)
BMW has always done that with their M///'s.
03-09-09, 09:26 PM
#55
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E90/E92 M3 is a faster and quicker car around any track vs IS-F - with enough margin that anyone who's driven around a track would know it. I've driven E90 M3 6MT and E46 SMG at Limerock on a same day and on that day there were two IS-F's running around. IS-F were slower than E46 on that day at Limerock and E90 was WAY - we are talking 5 seconds on a 1.5mile course - ahead of both E46 and IS-F.
03-09-09, 10:01 PM
#56
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I owned an IS-F but i've driven the M3 E92 and C63. M3 handles very well and pretty good power too, i think everyone that have driven will agree with me at this point. C63 for me is very powerful (torque and exhaust sounds are no joke) but handles just like a regular C-class. IS-F for me handling not as good as the E92 M3 but better than C63. Acceleration and power for me pretty much equal (not much difference). Since i got my F way below sticker, i will choose the F for sure. But if i have to pay the sticker, i will go for the M3.
03-10-09, 01:36 AM
#57
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You dont have the M3, so you won't understand it.
End of argument.
03-10-09, 11:39 AM
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Don't I feel like a tool for buying an IS-F when I could have just gone out and purchased an IS350 for thousands less, adding suspension of course and have a car that "doesn't feel that much different" than an IS-F
I don't have to comment further on this topic, and I'm sure IS-F owners will back me on this. The IS-F is on another planet entirely than an IS350! End of discussion!
I don't have to comment further on this topic, and I'm sure IS-F owners will back me on this. The IS-F is on another planet entirely than an IS350! End of discussion!
I owned an IS-F but i've driven the M3 E92 and C63. M3 handles very well and pretty good power too, i think everyone that have driven will agree with me at this point. C63 for me is very powerful (torque and exhaust sounds are no joke) but handles just like a regular C-class. IS-F for me handling not as good as the E92 M3 but better than C63. Acceleration and power for me pretty much equal (not much difference). Since i got my F way below sticker, i will choose the F for sure. But if i have to pay the sticker, i will go for the M3.
03-10-09, 12:53 PM
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Not too much unexpected posted here. I didn't go to the link but I am assuming this is the TG review that aired last night. Firstly, as with mmarshall, I don't find TG "reviews" terribly useful which is why I didn't pay all that much attention while getting some work done last night. I always keep forgetting whether Clarkson is Larry, Moe, or Curly, but that's a different topic.
As for the IS-G vs M3, I really don't see what the commotion is about. They are both fine cars. Would I love either one? Nope. So there is my equal opportunity way to possibly irritate fanboys of both genders. Both are just not what I am looking for. It seems to me that JC, Clarkson not the real JC, wound up by saying that the IS-F was very comparable although the Stig did lap quite a bit faster with the M, but that it was when you left the track that he really got into the M3 preferring mode. And the IS-F was roomier, better built, and with a bigger boot but it was the everyday drivability that he seemed to prefer. I could bring up the Nurburgring again but we've had that discussion before. Outside of the study hall set, it is about the worst place I can think of to do chassis development for the real world.
Bimmers have always had a ridiculous combination of ride/handling that few other models, let alone any entire brands, can match. They have gotten a bit away from it, especially with things like run flats, but they are still marvelous in that respect. Why? Because bimmer designs it in from the start with decades of experience on achieving a very certain outcome. That's why they define sports sedan.
When you take your average sedan and drop it, put different springs, different shocks, different tires, different stabilizer bars, add in a handful of trusses, play with bushings, etc., you can end up with a decent handling car. But you will inevitably sacrifice ride. It took Bilstein Sports and TRD blues to get my GS to the point where I think it should be in handling but it does ride harsh. I won't be doing that again which is probably why I will be back at bimmer for the replacement. And Lexus did a lot of changes to the IS-F but still basically they did the boy racer route with it. The M3 is a more integrated package. I am not sure of Clarksons age but you get to the point where even if you are still pre-pubescent sometimes while driving, most of the time you don't want to be punished for driving the car.
So the M3 was smaller but a tad more drivable on the British roads. Not much of a surprise compared to a hot rodded IS, even if the factory did do it. Can Toyota match bimmer in ride/handling? Of course. My memories of the Supra and even the MR2 give me no doubt. But it just doesn't seem to be their intent with Lexus. Not saying anything about the IS-F, there are volumes of reasons to buy it. Just as there are for the M3. Will Lexus spend the resources on the IS-F to justify the "it's their first attempt" hopefullness? Or will it be a factory fast and the furious parts bin car? Who knows? Doubtless someone will have absolutely irrefutable inside info but we will see from the product that winds up in the showrooms, not rumors.
Now the opinion of someone who isn't the slightest bit interested in buying either one of these cars may not be worth much but that doesn't stop us here. Certainly doesn't stop any car reviewer. And I really don't care what anyone says about either model or brand but we do need to leave it at that. The cars have to stand on their own. There is no perfect car. Never has been, never will. People are allowed to have their opinions. Just trying to differentiate the comments about the cars from the comments about each other.
As for the IS-G vs M3, I really don't see what the commotion is about. They are both fine cars. Would I love either one? Nope. So there is my equal opportunity way to possibly irritate fanboys of both genders. Both are just not what I am looking for. It seems to me that JC, Clarkson not the real JC, wound up by saying that the IS-F was very comparable although the Stig did lap quite a bit faster with the M, but that it was when you left the track that he really got into the M3 preferring mode. And the IS-F was roomier, better built, and with a bigger boot but it was the everyday drivability that he seemed to prefer. I could bring up the Nurburgring again but we've had that discussion before. Outside of the study hall set, it is about the worst place I can think of to do chassis development for the real world.
Bimmers have always had a ridiculous combination of ride/handling that few other models, let alone any entire brands, can match. They have gotten a bit away from it, especially with things like run flats, but they are still marvelous in that respect. Why? Because bimmer designs it in from the start with decades of experience on achieving a very certain outcome. That's why they define sports sedan.
When you take your average sedan and drop it, put different springs, different shocks, different tires, different stabilizer bars, add in a handful of trusses, play with bushings, etc., you can end up with a decent handling car. But you will inevitably sacrifice ride. It took Bilstein Sports and TRD blues to get my GS to the point where I think it should be in handling but it does ride harsh. I won't be doing that again which is probably why I will be back at bimmer for the replacement. And Lexus did a lot of changes to the IS-F but still basically they did the boy racer route with it. The M3 is a more integrated package. I am not sure of Clarksons age but you get to the point where even if you are still pre-pubescent sometimes while driving, most of the time you don't want to be punished for driving the car.
So the M3 was smaller but a tad more drivable on the British roads. Not much of a surprise compared to a hot rodded IS, even if the factory did do it. Can Toyota match bimmer in ride/handling? Of course. My memories of the Supra and even the MR2 give me no doubt. But it just doesn't seem to be their intent with Lexus. Not saying anything about the IS-F, there are volumes of reasons to buy it. Just as there are for the M3. Will Lexus spend the resources on the IS-F to justify the "it's their first attempt" hopefullness? Or will it be a factory fast and the furious parts bin car? Who knows? Doubtless someone will have absolutely irrefutable inside info but we will see from the product that winds up in the showrooms, not rumors.
Now the opinion of someone who isn't the slightest bit interested in buying either one of these cars may not be worth much but that doesn't stop us here. Certainly doesn't stop any car reviewer. And I really don't care what anyone says about either model or brand but we do need to leave it at that. The cars have to stand on their own. There is no perfect car. Never has been, never will. People are allowed to have their opinions. Just trying to differentiate the comments about the cars from the comments about each other.
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