Buick & Jaguar Dethrone Lexus in Reliability Survey (merged threads)
03-19-09, 03:19 PM
#48
Lexus Test Driver
03-19-09, 03:57 PM
#50
JD Power is not the rubbish that is Consumer Reports whose reviews I trust, but whose reliability data is for all practical purposes, useless.
Someone asked earlier on about how Scion is near the bottom. Here's what people need to understand -
1) Almost all cars sold on the market today are more or less equally reliable. Most modern cars are very well engineered and the expensive, complex components that can fail wind up coming from the same suppliers (eg: lambda sensors, ECMs, catalyst coatings, thermistors etc.). Eg: bosch, ngk, siemens vdo, continental, JM etc. And the suppliers typically do their homework before shipping complex hardware.
There's very little that can go wrong in terms of long term reliability. However, people labor under the misconception that things are still the way they were in the 70s and that there are cars out there that'll leave you stranded on the highway at 50,000 miles. Completely false.
2) The problems that are showing up in reliability surveys are often quality and durability problems - wind noise, rattles, paint defects etc. since there is nothing else to complain about.
3) The numbers that you see here can be analyzed in a hundred different ways. 211 vs 203 is meaningless. Anyone who deals with statistical analysis on a daily basis knows that while statistics is immensely useful when used properly, it can also be used to draw conclusions that are completely erroneous.
Bottomline: German cars and parts are more expensive and first year problems still persist for almost everyone especially with shorter design times - but otherwise, buy what you think is the best product for your money. If reliability is still a concern, keep in mind how long most modern warranties are.
If a car is truly unreliable, you'll hear about it before long and there are very few cars out there like that nowadays.
Someone asked earlier on about how Scion is near the bottom. Here's what people need to understand -
1) Almost all cars sold on the market today are more or less equally reliable. Most modern cars are very well engineered and the expensive, complex components that can fail wind up coming from the same suppliers (eg: lambda sensors, ECMs, catalyst coatings, thermistors etc.). Eg: bosch, ngk, siemens vdo, continental, JM etc. And the suppliers typically do their homework before shipping complex hardware.
There's very little that can go wrong in terms of long term reliability. However, people labor under the misconception that things are still the way they were in the 70s and that there are cars out there that'll leave you stranded on the highway at 50,000 miles. Completely false.
2) The problems that are showing up in reliability surveys are often quality and durability problems - wind noise, rattles, paint defects etc. since there is nothing else to complain about.
3) The numbers that you see here can be analyzed in a hundred different ways. 211 vs 203 is meaningless. Anyone who deals with statistical analysis on a daily basis knows that while statistics is immensely useful when used properly, it can also be used to draw conclusions that are completely erroneous.
Bottomline: German cars and parts are more expensive and first year problems still persist for almost everyone especially with shorter design times - but otherwise, buy what you think is the best product for your money. If reliability is still a concern, keep in mind how long most modern warranties are.
If a car is truly unreliable, you'll hear about it before long and there are very few cars out there like that nowadays.
Last edited by rosskoss; 03-19-09 at 07:35 PM.
03-19-09, 04:06 PM
#51
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 1,651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's up with all the Jaguar hating around here? 
Jaguars have their appeal. I consider the XF to be a stunningly gorgeous machine and the XJ is the often overlooked beauty queen in its class.
Also, what's this?
"Jaguar was never a reliable brand."
Huh? Let's back up this claim with some facts. The way I recall it, Jaguars were pretty sturdy and fairly reliable cars before the English economy took a dive and affected the English automobile industry.
The same can be said for German products, which only began to suffer from quality issues in the mid-1990s. I've always wondered if this wasn't the result of East and West Germany being reunited with the West Germans bailing out the failing East German economy with billions and billions of Deutschmarks. Such a financial move will have repercussions in some way or the other on the whole German economy, and as I recall, the focus in the mid-1990s of most German firms was on cost-cutting, which included the automobile industry.
This is a theory I have brought on by the example of the English automobile industry and how closely it suffered because of the harsh economic times in the 1970s, which also included labor disputes and so forth.
Jaguars have their appeal. I consider the XF to be a stunningly gorgeous machine and the XJ is the often overlooked beauty queen in its class.
Also, what's this?
"Jaguar was never a reliable brand."
Huh? Let's back up this claim with some facts. The way I recall it, Jaguars were pretty sturdy and fairly reliable cars before the English economy took a dive and affected the English automobile industry.
The same can be said for German products, which only began to suffer from quality issues in the mid-1990s. I've always wondered if this wasn't the result of East and West Germany being reunited with the West Germans bailing out the failing East German economy with billions and billions of Deutschmarks. Such a financial move will have repercussions in some way or the other on the whole German economy, and as I recall, the focus in the mid-1990s of most German firms was on cost-cutting, which included the automobile industry.
This is a theory I have brought on by the example of the English automobile industry and how closely it suffered because of the harsh economic times in the 1970s, which also included labor disputes and so forth.
03-19-09, 04:17 PM
#52
Lexus Champion
03-19-09, 04:51 PM
#55
3 posts...all in one thread. We get it already.
Care to expound any further as to why you feel this way?
Care to expound any further as to why you feel this way?
03-19-09, 04:59 PM
#56
Lexus Fanatic
Others have responded too, read above pls.
03-19-09, 05:12 PM
#57
Lexus Champion
In CR's Used Car Reliability report for the Jag XJ series, they show Insufficient Data for model years '06-'08. Their methods of collecting data may be different than JDP.
Buicks in general did well overall.
Buicks in general did well overall.
03-19-09, 05:36 PM
#58
Lexus Fanatic
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: California
Posts: 6,084
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not like we couldn't figure out what the comments would be. We are all modern. Don't like a survey, run down the guys who ran it. Your brand didn't "win" (whatever that means), well just say that this time they got it wrong and make up whatever reasons you want to justify your position. Want someone to fail, hopefully the reults fan your ego.
Surveys are pretty interesting and they can be corrupted just like any poll. But at any given moment in time, they probably have captured a relativistic measurement within some tolerance. They have changed some of what they survey and I haven't quite sorted out the implication of that (tires and windshield wipers - that was a big portion of people's complaints?) yet but maybe there is something significant. What I can say is that when I spend some time in a new Lexus it doesn't seem as well screwed together as my 2k1 or 2k3. Of course, you could say that about a lot of brands. Buick and Jag beating Lexus? Well, let them do it for a decade and then talk to me. Kudos for improvement but I have been fooled before by people getting more reliable in surveys for a while. Buick is probably the most reliable brand for GM and has been for some time. Just not my cup of tea and I still have a hard time believing that any Buick will be as solid after eight years as my 2k1 GS is.
Now this might get me flamed but I understand that. IMO Lexus/Toyota has far more to lose by slipping in these ratings than Buick or Jag or Suzuki has in improving. Why? Because when I look at a new car to buy, and I started last year, a big reason to stay with Lexus is reliability. For me bimmer, mercedes, audi, and maybe even Jag, are far more on my list of possible candidates because of the things they do well that Lexus does poorly. And makes those brands far more enjoyable to drive. What keeps Lexus in the running is that at my point in life, reliability means quite a bit. But if Lexus doesn't deliver the reliability that I expect, well, there isn't much reason to shop them. Not saying that being third and fourth is a terrible result, I would be a moron to believe that. But the trend is noticable and not surprising from the newer Lexus models I spend time in, owners of newer models I talk to, conversations with Lexus service writers, etc.
I don't want to drag another thread into this but the recurrent LF-A threads have posts where people make impassioned arguments for how much Lexus needs that model. I would prefer they spend more effort on the current Lexus product, insure they are head and shoulders above the competition for reliability, and maybe put a bit more drivability in the average Lexus. LF-A means absolutely nothing to me as to buying another Lexus anytime soon. But those other factors are the reasons I will always look at Lexus when shopping.
Surveys are pretty interesting and they can be corrupted just like any poll. But at any given moment in time, they probably have captured a relativistic measurement within some tolerance. They have changed some of what they survey and I haven't quite sorted out the implication of that (tires and windshield wipers - that was a big portion of people's complaints?) yet but maybe there is something significant. What I can say is that when I spend some time in a new Lexus it doesn't seem as well screwed together as my 2k1 or 2k3. Of course, you could say that about a lot of brands. Buick and Jag beating Lexus? Well, let them do it for a decade and then talk to me. Kudos for improvement but I have been fooled before by people getting more reliable in surveys for a while. Buick is probably the most reliable brand for GM and has been for some time. Just not my cup of tea and I still have a hard time believing that any Buick will be as solid after eight years as my 2k1 GS is.
Now this might get me flamed but I understand that. IMO Lexus/Toyota has far more to lose by slipping in these ratings than Buick or Jag or Suzuki has in improving. Why? Because when I look at a new car to buy, and I started last year, a big reason to stay with Lexus is reliability. For me bimmer, mercedes, audi, and maybe even Jag, are far more on my list of possible candidates because of the things they do well that Lexus does poorly. And makes those brands far more enjoyable to drive. What keeps Lexus in the running is that at my point in life, reliability means quite a bit. But if Lexus doesn't deliver the reliability that I expect, well, there isn't much reason to shop them. Not saying that being third and fourth is a terrible result, I would be a moron to believe that. But the trend is noticable and not surprising from the newer Lexus models I spend time in, owners of newer models I talk to, conversations with Lexus service writers, etc.
I don't want to drag another thread into this but the recurrent LF-A threads have posts where people make impassioned arguments for how much Lexus needs that model. I would prefer they spend more effort on the current Lexus product, insure they are head and shoulders above the competition for reliability, and maybe put a bit more drivability in the average Lexus. LF-A means absolutely nothing to me as to buying another Lexus anytime soon. But those other factors are the reasons I will always look at Lexus when shopping.
03-19-09, 06:12 PM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
if lexus were 1st place in JDP, i still wouldn't care about JDP.
that's how much it's worth to me.
What is there to brag about?
it's like bragging about receiving a People's Choice Movie award, rather than an Oscar.
that's how much it's worth to me.
What is there to brag about?
it's like bragging about receiving a People's Choice Movie award, rather than an Oscar.
03-19-09, 06:43 PM
#60
Rookie
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nbeen fooled before by people getting more reliable in surveys for a while. Buick is probably the most reliable brand for GM and has been for some time. Just not my cup of tea and I still have a hard time believing that any Buick will be as solid after eight years as my 2k1 GS is.
.
.
the question I have for this JD power survey~~~
in average, people get rid of their cars in 5-6 years. (according to JD's statement).
So it seems to me that it makes more sense to do a "5 years reliability survey" instead of 3 years'.
right?
Why they do 3 years? try to cover something?
Last edited by kpmg2007; 03-19-09 at 06:53 PM.