FKL

Well your personal opinion of a "good product" obviously favors more closely high reliability markings moreso than overall fit and finish, solidness, and design competence, which is where my own definition would likely fall near.

I don't think that a Volkswagen, just becuase they are considered a Niche brand here in the states by both consumers and the automotive press, creates poor cars at the end of the day. They are all of high quality, offer high driving standards, and are most always setting safety, design and segment innovations. The Tiguan was just rated as the best performing small SUV for rollover safety - the Honda CRV was merely marginal. The Passat, GTi, Tiguan, and Touareg all have state of the art direct-injection motors across all model trims in every engine choice. Not even Mercedes comes close. Not even BMW. And certainly not their direct competitors.

And it's true that the VW brand ranking is near the bottom in the US. No, they are not as reliable as they should be, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are well extremely safe, well built, and positively performing vehicles that also offer excellent refinement.

-J-P-L-

I agree with most of that but unfortunately to me it all becomes meaningless without reliability. Too bad.

CDNROCKIES

No, my opinion of a "good product" isn't based solely on reliablilty. It is based on the total package. But a "good" product cannot have the worst reliablity available. That in itself would be an oxymoron.

I don't disagree that VW has some initial appeal. But they quickly fall to average when you factor in how poorly they stand up over time.

IS-SV

Yes I have, all that proves is the cabin is tier1, almost as nice as Jag XF. Have you seen the exterior of the passat? I have owned plenty of premium cars and it's not on my shopping list.

mvlbr

My dad has owned 3 passats in the last 9 years and they were all very good cars with no major problems(I guess he got lucky). Before the passat he had owned plenty of toyotas and they were all pretty reliable cars but he just didn't like the way that they have turned into boring looking cars so he's gone back to VW(which he has owned plenty since his first car a used 63 beetle). The last toyota he had was a 00 corolla which he kept for about 6 months before he traded it in for an 01 passat. To be honest I was going to buy an A4 before buying my IS but decided to stay away since maintenance is pretty expensive on Audi and not to mention all the electrical horror stories I've read online just turned me off Sorry dad I'll stick with reliability

SLegacy99

I'd take an A4 over an IS. However, the 2.0L turbo AWD with a 6MT is so much more appealing than the 2.5L IS. Better AWD, better gas mileage, better handling. The reliability of 2.0L is top notch from what I have heard.

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

Most of the concerns I have heard about VW & Audi are electrical issues and not engine related. That being said, if I needed AWD I'd go with the A4 2.0T as well. But, the Lexus 3.5 is a lot better than the 3.2L in the Audi IMO. Can't wait until they stick that supercharged 3.0 into the A4 though

SLegacy99

Oh yea. The power output is good, as is the fuel economy for an AWD vehicle. Very impressive.

FKL

No. That is a subjective opinion. Their products are still quality products, in my opinion.

I'll still call their cars "good", even "excellent". 1) Top tier safety. 2) Top tier engineering. 3) Top tier road manners. 4) Top tier detailing.
This all overcomes "second to worst reliability in a survey", in my opinion. You may disagree, and that's fine. It's all where your individual priorities are.

The one thing about VW is, even though they don't sell many cars in the US, they are hardly an also-ran.

speedflex

What sort of electrical bugs do VWs typically exhibit and are these problems really very common? I'm trying to get a feel for this sincerely because I'm seriously considering the CC but I'm uneasy about VW's repair history. I love the car itself but the thought of a tempermental ride is a deal breaker for me.

FKL

Lots of people like to act like they know what they are talking about and throw around big words, but the reality is, the current mkv Golf/b6 passat are a vast departure from the nightmares of the old cars.

No more frayed wirring around the harness
No more water frying the comfort control modules
Electric control modules all overhauled (abs module/ecm/ccm).


vag-com can do wonders and will tell you everything (as well as enable endless cool mods). The mkv/b6 is much more sophisticated electrically than the previous vehicles, and most relays are changed over to the computer (the turn signals for instance). when airbags are deployed, the turn signals are activated. turn signals can be changed between 3-5 blinks on lane change setting. when the wipers are activated, the brake pads wipe the disks. on the passat, the braking system is fully integrated with the ECM, and can hold the brakes on a hill, automtically engage/disengage the parking brake. lots of cool little things. You can even edit the bi-xenon startup sequence in vag-com if you have AFS. Still, reliability is still nagging. Consider though that the 2008 Passat was rated by cr as having the most dramatically improved rating.

CDNROCKIES

[QUOTE=FKL;4377288]No. That is a subjective opinion. Their products are still quality products, in my opinion.

I'll still call their cars "good", even "excellent". 1) Top tier safety. 2) Top tier engineering. 3) Top tier road manners. 4) Top tier detailing.
This all overcomes "second to worst reliability in a survey", in my opinion. You may disagree, and that's fine. It's all where your individual priorities are.
[QUOTE]

And everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I do have some million dollar ocean side real estate that you might be interested in....just don't complain when it slides into the ocean in a few years.

Same thing, imo.

FKL

I really like the look of the new Passat, even more than the old 01.5-05.5 generation. I know it gets hated on compared to the CC, but I think it looks a lot better than the pretty bizzare looking Accord, and more classy than the Camry/Altima. It looks like a much more expensive car, especially with 17"+ wheels. The quality of the body itself is very, very nice. My favorite feature is the LED tail lights which looks they belong on a car costing twice as much. The turn signals are the large circular LED, the tail lamps inside. If you've seen a b6 Passat at night, these lights look very upscale. I was dissapointed the CC has regular lights on the rear. Plus the logo trunk trick is a nice, premium touch.

overall, the exterior hardware and quality seems to benefit it's price scope (approaching $40,000 in VR6 trim), in my opinion.

I really, really like the Passat, if you couldn't tell. It's a really nice car, drives well, has great safety ratings, and has plenty of little tuetonic, German touches. The reliability is nothing to forget about (I could write on essay on every repair my 02 GLX V6 has had - suspension my god), but it's still a great car that's very rewarding to drive and sit in. With that said, my Honda Accords are great, reliable, and sufficiently sporty little cars, but they are not up to the Passat overall quality. But then again, they are reliable, and the Honda nav is just excellent. The new Accord is just crap from my viewpoint, though. Ugly, cheapened, and big. The Camry finally wins for once here. But at the end of the day, the Passat seems to still set the bar for most in this class. Too bad VW can't offer reliability up to Japanese standards. They are trying, we'll see how long it takes. The physical product is a good one and I when you own one, the VW-ness does start to rub off on you. They aren't forgettable cars, like a Mitsubishi Galant for instance. That's all for my little rant, had to get it out

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I think that between CDNROCKIES and FKL, some good points have been made and I largely agree with both of you.

At the end of the day, as you have both mentioned, it comes down to preferences and opinions. Considering that this is a Lexus forum, I would venture to guess that reliability, dependability, and maintenance costs are on the top of our priorities which is part of what led us to the brand in the first place.

To Lexus people (and Toyota people, Honda people, etc), sacrificing reliability and long term dependability for unique design cues or specific interior details is not really an enticing deal. We prioritize even just the piece of mind in knowing that our cars aren't going to leave us stranded, short out, or not work. (CDN, I know you had one issue with your car that night but, as a whole...)

Now, I am not saying that a VW will short out or leave you stranded, but they have a history of doing that moreso than some of their Asian rivals. However, for VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc, people, elements of design, performance, and driving characteristics are more highly valued than they probably are for an equivalent Lexus or Toyota buyer who prioritizes reliability.

Just comes down to your priorities and opinions, as above. For me, reliability and dependability are on the very top of my list and it would take a few more years of significantly improved reliability scores for me to consider a VW. Doesn't mean they aren't wonderful, suberbly built, safe, unique cars, because that they are. It just means it's not the car I would choose.

kpmg2007

===========================

So someone think VW's cars are very good, but Why they can't sell in US?

1) for the mass, they need relatively cheap cars (relatively good) to buy and maintain. Let's say VW provide carswith 120% quality, but charge 130% more (parts are even higher). People don't need them. It's called overpriced.

2) for the riches, they like image and luxury/performance. VW can offer 0% image and 80-90% luxury/performance. Not many rich people are going to buy VW products.

so why VW is still applying this strategy? Coz they are forced into doing this.
They can not compete with american or jan cars for the mass. So they figured to get into a niche market, semi-premium..(like buick).